too many fandoms? no such thing

https://c.org/m9YF2rNDrq

I was fully not prepared for where that was going, lol.

Okay, so I had to look up how competitive, team-based cooking shows actually work. Because there is only one that I've seen enough episodes of to remember anything, and I don't know how representative it is of cooking shows in general.

So let's assume there are a few rounds, that the expected cuisine is stereotypical upper class restaurant, and that the judges are all food snobs. That seems to be the standard setup for shows that aren't themed around a specific kind of food.

Now the teams. The hotel crew is the biggest by far, so I'm going to resurrect Adam and give Heaven Sir Pentious just to balance things out a little (I could also give Angel Dust to the Vees, but I am going to be nice and not do that). So if my math is right, and including Baxter because it seems he's being counted as part of the main cast going forward, that's... nine for the hotel crew, six for Heaven, and three for the Vees. This is multiples of three and very satisfying.

The hotel crew has the advantage of numbers, and they have Alastor, whom Word of God has labeled a foodie and is probably the best cook of the entire cast. However, that one cooking show I've actually seen is, very appropriately, Hell's Kitchen. Larger teams mean more egos, and the hotel crew also has Lucifer. He and Alastor will fight the entire time. Vaggi will take over and try to get them working at separate stations, but that just means the hotel gets divided between Alastor claiming Niffty as his helper, Lucifer claiming Charlie, Angel, Cherri, and Baxter are trying to do everything else, and Husk just doesn't want to be there (was not grabbed by Alastor because he wasn't deemed useful). Also, this is a high speed, high pressure environment, so Charlie is probably struggling a bit.

Heaven is substantially more functional. Adam is their biggest ego and the others will probably just follow his lead if he acts like he knows what he's doing, so cooperation isn't much of an issue as long as Lute and Pentious are separated. Their biggest disadvantage is that, while Adam strikes me as someone who knows what to do with meat, Pentious is the only one out of all of them who's actually been required to cook in the last few thousand years; Emily probably dabbles for fun, but none of them have had to cook unless they actually wanted to (and even Pentious, whom we see baking in canon, just made cookies both times. Though he was presumably feeding himself in Hell, at least prior to having the Egg Boiz to do his evil cooking, so he can probably do more than that). So they've got desert and entrees covered, but the rest of it is on shakier ground.

The Vees actually have the biggest advantage, despite having the smallest team, because they've been working together for decades, they've demonstrated that they work well together, and they've all had to feed themselves within the last century. None of them strike me as being great cooks, and there are probably more stations than they have people, but they might come out ahead simply by sucking the least.

So:

The hotel crew's kitchen is chaos. Something catches fire. It was probably Charlie (accident) or Cherri (deliberate).

After the first couple rounds, Vaggi has most of them assigned to their own stations and they're all doing a better job of staying out of each other's way.

Alastor and Lucifer continue to act like it's them vs each other and not the hotel vs the other teams. Vaggi exiles both of them from the kitchen more than once.

Adam's idea of leadership is, if he doesn't know how to do something, tell someone else to do it and let them figure it out. Which would be great if anyone else actually knew what they were doing.

Pentious is carrying the team with everything except the meat. He treats it like commanding a battle and basically becomes Heaven's head chef after the first round.

Lute absolutely Will Not do what Pentious says, so she pretty much just helps Adam. She refrains from causing more trouble than that because she and Adam really want to beat the Hell teams.

The Vees go in with a game plan. That plan falls apart halfway through the first round because everything takes longer than expected and they don't have enough people.

Their kitchen is less chaotic than the hotel's because they have a third of the people, but it manages to be just as loud because they're all yelling at each other about stuff not being done.

They do manage to adapt after a couple rounds. This mostly looks like triaging whatever is quickest and easiest to finish while keeping it edible.

Somehow, all three teams are functional by the final round. Mostly in the sense that they all have a clear leader, everyone knows their jobs, and nothing is catching fire anymore.

Heaven wins the first couple rounds purely by virtue of having the most dishes fully and reasonably well prepared. The rest of their food is of questionable edibility.

The Vees are missing a minimum of one dish every single round, but they manage to transition from everything being undercooked to most of it being decent if simple.

Ultimately, the hotel is turning out the most complete dishes with the most consistent quality, largely because they have the most people who at least sort of know how to cook. They don't benefit much from having the best cook.

All of the judges are snobs, so none of them are ever actually impressed. Except maybe by Adam's meat.

*The winner of this matchup will represent their bracket in the inter-group finale poll(s).

PROPAGANDA:

[Stan]

"It would be funny if the twin of the winner won."

"He would be an amazing dad, even though at first he is gruff and a bit reckless, you can see as the series goes on, how deeply he loves and cares for the people closest to him, he would do anything for his family, and he would be the most dedicated dad out there."

"Gotta get both twins knocked up."

"why should Ford have all the fun? also Stan would be a WAY better dad than Ford."

"HED BE SUCH A SINGLE DAD I NEED HIM PREGNANT AND STRUGGLING WITH A BABY AND RAISING HER THE BEST HE CAN AND SOMETIMES FAILING BUT OVER ALL MAKING IT WORK I CAN PICTURE HIM USING HIS PREGNANT BELLY AS AN ICECREAM TABLE WHILE HE WATCHES DUCKTECTIVE AND PERIOD DRAMAS."

"He's the sexier more breedable brother to me but also I just think it'd be funny if he won the second time around since Ford won the first one :)"

Grunkle Stan propaganda from last season

[Starscream]

"He would be STRUTTING with it. He's gonna raise an ARMY of LOYAL UNDERLINGS and they're going to make him RULER OF THE UNIVERSE. also he would be fucking miserable and so so angry and i think that would be fun."

"I need need need my conniving flying bastard man to be pregnant, he'd be so insufferable about it. Can you imagine? TFP Starscream would use his pregnancy as a way to manipulate the autobots and pretend to "care so much about my precious baby" and then he'd stab everyone in the back. G1 Starscream would have a bunch of grand dreams of shaping his baby into the ultimate Megatron-killing weapon and then they rule the galaxy together."

"I need to see him manipulate someone into getting him pregnant only to abort it in an attempt to hurt them only to have no effect at all. I need this."

"He’s funny and endlessly miserable in most continuities and I think being pregnant would make him happy even if he complained about it at the time."

"LISTEN……. It would be funny as shit if all the time he tried to usurp Megatron he succeeded in the one thing he didn’t want and lost so disgracefully. And in some media interpretations having “kids” or pets mellows that fucked up prideful and very much traumatized abused but unwilling to admit it and look for help man."

Okay, so first, I have opinions about how Charlie would react to her dad dating anyone. Because in basically every Lucifer shipfic I have ever read, she's supportive of him dating, if not outright encouraging him to. And I get why people do that, because amatonormativity they need to get the missing wife out of the picture so their ship can have a happy ending, and that's easier if Lucifer's daughter is okay with it. And also I guess people think Charlie is/should be the kind of selfless person who cares about her dad being happy first and foremost.

I disagree entirely! Because she is herself still clinging to the hope that this time Lilith will answer the phone. I can't see her pushing Lucifer to move on when she hasn't even moved on. And while they're trying to repair their relationship, I don't think it's repaired to the point where she can separate her own feelings from his; if he was dating again, I think she would be upset, because it would feel like he's giving up on Lilith coming back and giving up on them being a family again.

At best, I think she would be stressing about how serious it is. Because if it's not serious, maybe it's okay? Seven-eight years is a long time to be alone, and it would be good for him to get out more and maybe meet some new people, and maybe it would help him get over his whole "sinners are gross" thing if he actually got to know a few. But if it is serious, or becomes serious, what's going to happen if Lilith does come back? How are they supposed to be a family again and go back to how things were if things can't be how they were?

So that's about how I think she'd react in a pre-S2 scenario, where the identity of Lucifer's new interest wouldn't affect her reaction too much. She'd be worrying if her dad still loves her mom, that it's going to break her family apart forever, that his actions are going to affect her ability to still have a relationship with her mom, and I think she'd just generally feel kind of betrayed.

Now post-S2. I think she would have a lot more feelings and they'd be a lot more complicated. Because on one hand, all of the above, and also it is Vox who almost went to war with Heaven and ruined the hotel, and also hurt Lucifer. But on the other hand, it is Vox, who spins everything and somehow captured Lucifer in the first place, so what if he's just manipulating him? Well, obviously there's like, a really high chance that he's manipulating him, but maybe he's forcing it somehow? Because if her dad was going to date anyone why would it be Vox of all people? It doesn't make sense.

So she'd need to decide if she feels more betrayed or if Lucifer needs to be rescued. Anything else she feels about Vox is secondary, because he's obviously not okay, but that just kind of makes it worse. Because her experience with Vox is that he'll take every advantage he can get, so he's got to be the kind of person who'd use his issues as an excuse, or a tool for manipulation (I think he'd more likely be the kind of person who denies having issues even if he knows he does, because public image. But she's only properly met the guy twice, and he was actively suicidal the second time, so she doesn't know that).

I think she'd ultimately confront Vox about it, and I think Vaggi would actually encourage that. Because if it is a trick, fighting with Lucifer about it isn't going to help, and might be exactly what Vox wants. And she probably would come away with her concerns at least reduced, if not laid to rest, because at this point Vox is pretty much a social pariah; how does he benefit from dating a depressed recluse who doesn't even run his own kingdom, has minimal power over a large number of that kingdom's occupants, and whose own reputation took a beating during the whole "attack Heaven" thing?

Also, he would deny that it's "dating", because "dating" implies things that they are definitely not. Honestly, he'd think it's weird that Charlie doubts her dad would drop him in an instant if Lilith did come back. Which obviously reflects her insecurity, not his. He is simply facing facts, and the fact is that he is a temporary distraction for a lonely man who doesn't have better options because nobody respects him (no one will notice the self-deprecation if he just deprecates everyone, right? Right).

So that's one worry somewhat addressed, but everything else is made more complicated by the suggestion that she's just acting out her own insecurities, the fact that if it's not a trick, then Vox himself doesn't think it's serious, and the question of whether Lucifer thinks it's serious. Because if he doesn't then he's still seeing someone who hurt him and her, and if he does then he's going to get hurt again when he finds out how Vox sees the situation.

So still worried, still betrayed, and also maybe some anger at Vox for thinking so lowly of someone who clearly sees something in him, or he wouldn't be ignoring everything Vox did to them (which tips the scales in favor of "Lucifer thinks it's serious", so time to panic).

It would all be very messy for everyone involved. And in my absolutely biased opinion, it would be both more interesting and lead to stronger relationships for all involved than Charlie just shrugging and being fine with it. Because then everyone has to interact and figure out where they stand with each other, the pain Vox caused Charlie actually gets addressed, and she has to contend with him being a person at the end of the day (one who fully expects to be discarded once he's not needed anymore, at that).

Okay, so first, I have opinions about how Charlie would react to her dad dating anyone. Because in basically every Lucifer shipfic I have ever read, she's supportive of him dating, if not outright encouraging him to. And I get why people do that, because amatonormativity they need to get the missing wife out of the picture so their ship can have a happy ending, and that's easier if Lucifer's daughter is okay with it. And also I guess people think Charlie is/should be the kind of selfless person who cares about her dad being happy first and foremost.

I disagree entirely! Because she is herself still clinging to the hope that this time Lilith will answer the phone. I can't see her pushing Lucifer to move on when she hasn't even moved on. And while they're trying to repair their relationship, I don't think it's repaired to the point where she can separate her own feelings from his; if he was dating again, I think she would be upset, because it would feel like he's giving up on Lilith coming back and giving up on them being a family again.

At best, I think she would be stressing about how serious it is. Because if it's not serious, maybe it's okay? Seven-eight years is a long time to be alone, and it would be good for him to get out more and maybe meet some new people, and maybe it would help him get over his whole "sinners are gross" thing if he actually got to know a few. But if it is serious, or becomes serious, what's going to happen if Lilith does come back? How are they supposed to be a family again and go back to how things were if things can't be how they were?

So that's about how I think she'd react in a pre-S2 scenario, where the identity of Lucifer's new interest wouldn't affect her reaction too much. She'd be worrying if her dad still loves her mom, that it's going to break her family apart forever, that his actions are going to affect her ability to still have a relationship with her mom, and I think she'd just generally feel kind of betrayed.

Now post-S2. I think she would have a lot more feelings and they'd be a lot more complicated. Because on one hand, all of the above, and also it is Vox who almost went to war with Heaven and ruined the hotel, and also hurt Lucifer. But on the other hand, it is Vox, who spins everything and somehow captured Lucifer in the first place, so what if he's just manipulating him? Well, obviously there's like, a really high chance that he's manipulating him, but maybe he's forcing it somehow? Because if her dad was going to date anyone why would it be Vox of all people? It doesn't make sense.

So she'd need to decide if she feels more betrayed or if Lucifer needs to be rescued. Anything else she feels about Vox is secondary, because he's obviously not okay, but that just kind of makes it worse. Because her experience with Vox is that he'll take every advantage he can get, so he's got to be the kind of person who'd use his issues as an excuse, or a tool for manipulation (I think he'd more likely be the kind of person who denies having issues even if he knows he does, because public image. But she's only properly met the guy twice, and he was actively suicidal the second time, so she doesn't know that).

I think she'd ultimately confront Vox about it, and I think Vaggi would actually encourage that. Because if it is a trick, fighting with Lucifer about it isn't going to help, and might be exactly what Vox wants. And she probably would come away with her concerns at least reduced, if not laid to rest, because at this point Vox is pretty much a social pariah; how does he benefit from dating a depressed recluse who doesn't even run his own kingdom, has minimal power over a large number of that kingdom's occupants, and whose own reputation took a beating during the whole "attack Heaven" thing?

Also, he would deny that it's "dating", because "dating" implies things that they are definitely not. Honestly, he'd think it's weird that Charlie doubts her dad would drop him in an instant if Lilith did come back. Which obviously reflects her insecurity, not his. He is simply facing facts, and the fact is that he is a temporary distraction for a lonely man who doesn't have better options because nobody respects him (no one will notice the self-deprecation if he just deprecates everyone, right? Right).

So that's one worry somewhat addressed, but everything else is made more complicated by the suggestion that she's just acting out her own insecurities, the fact that if it's not a trick, then Vox himself doesn't think it's serious, and the question of whether Lucifer thinks it's serious. Because if he doesn't then he's still seeing someone who hurt him and her, and if he does then he's going to get hurt again when he finds out how Vox sees the situation.

So still worried, still betrayed, and also maybe some anger at Vox for thinking so lowly of someone who clearly sees something in him, or he wouldn't be ignoring everything Vox did to them (which tips the scales in favor of "Lucifer thinks it's serious", so time to panic).

It would all be very messy for everyone involved. And in my absolutely biased opinion, it would be both more interesting and lead to stronger relationships for all involved than Charlie just shrugging and being fine with it. Because then everyone has to interact and figure out where they stand with each other, the pain Vox caused Charlie actually gets addressed, and she has to contend with him being a person at the end of the day (one who fully expects to be discarded once he's not needed anymore, at that).

if you favor more lighthearted interpretations of canon, well, this is the franchise where:

-the king very seriously steals a pet seal

-rapunzel’s chameleon becomes a dragon for some reason

-the princess leads a singalong with the worst of the worst

-sapient animal sidekicks exist

-shenanigans generally abound

you can write about the characters gallivanting to and fro for the silliest of reasons. you can have them solve mysteries with the zaniest of suspects. the world is your oyster.

even aside from creation, you should feel free to have your own version of events! you can reject any shocking implications the writers might have accidentally hinted at, simply because they don’t fit what the show means to you.

a show, once put out into the world, is left for the fans to do with it what they will. lighthearted-interpretation-havers are valid.

on the other hand, this is the franchise where:

-eugene fitzherbert desperately tries to crawl toward his chained-up love while bleeding out

-cassandra’s hand rots on-screen

-a child loses his morality in a desperate scramble to pin the blame for his father’s death on the princess

-rapunzel’s parents repeat the same behaviors as the abusive kidnapper she just escaped from

-impenetrable rocks shoot up quickly enough to impale somebody in their sleep

those with darker interpretations are drawing from the canon just as much as those who view it as a generally fun show. yes, good prevails over evil (ish) and our heroes win the day (depending on your views of how the finale served each character), and it overall has a cheerful atmosphere, but it’s still worthwhile to explore how our cast would be affected by the plot!

nobody needs to argue, because nobody is wrong.

the people who want frederic and arianna to resemble their movie counterparts are welcome to have at it. the people who find the show’s parental conflict intriguing are welcome to dive into that.

the people who say “the guards are just background characters— they wouldn’t directly hold a grudge or misuse their power against varian during his stay in prison! just look at stan and pete!” are not wrong. neither are the people who bring up the prison chase scene in “tangled”, or point out that “it’s not unrealistic to assume they’d hold a grudge against the kid with the monster that nearly killed them”.

(my interpretation is somewhere between those two options. i think some guards were apathetic or misguided, while some were particularly cruel. they are the medieval police.)

i hope this doesn’t come across as vagueposting or condescending. i just find myself saddened when i see people from differing camps trying to drag one another into their opposing sides.

just visit! mingle! spend some time with the lighthearted-interpretation-havers, or people who tend to create more fluffy content, and then (depending on if you’re in the mood for it/want to see it at all) venture over to the implication-expanding, angsty side.

If Alastor ever gets villain arc how do you feel about the idea of them becoming allies in the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of way? Or do you have different vision in mind?

Reading your takes on Vox is an absolute delight and I just wanna know more from you on Vox-Charlie relationship specifically.

Oh, I have had thoughts on this topic marinating literally since finishing S2.

When I think about these two interacting again, my first thought is how it could affect Charlie's growth. Because as things stand currently, Vox holds a unique position in her life, and presents some unique problems: whether through words or through actions, he has hurt her, her dad, her friends, and her hotel. He launched an actual attack on Heaven, tried to start a war, and then nearly destroyed half the city trying to kill one (1) of her friends. And he's still alive, so he could potentially cause even more chaos.

He is also a sinner, which makes him one of the people she's trying to help. And she had a front row seat to his homicidal-suicidal breakdown.

So far, Charlie's belief in redemption has never been challenged. She has never for a second doubted that it's possible; her struggle has been figuring out how, and then proving it. And as she told Vox himself, she believes anyone can be redeemed.

She now knows for a fact that redemption is possible, and she proved it, so if her beliefs are going to be challenged, the only thing left is whether she still believes anyone can be. Which could be approached directly as a question of whether some people are beyond redemption, or it could be an internal struggle: does she still believe it? If Vox asked her again if she thought he could be redeemed, after everything he did, would she still be able to say yes and mean it? Could she mean it even if she can't, or doesn't want to, forgive what he did?

Personally, I think the latter would be a much better direction. We have other characters who could address whether some people are beyond redeeming, but we only have one Charlie. And forgiveness has been a theme of her character right from the beginning, when she forgave Sir Pentious, so it would be interesting to see her struggle with it (she did have some trouble when she found out Vaggi was an angel, but she already cared about Vaggi. Whereas any goodwill she might have felt for Vox died within hours of meeting him).

It's pretty safe to say Vox has no interest in redemption, and I doubt he'd willingly spend any time at the hotel (probably better for everyone if he didn't, honestly). But it's possible forgiveness could be a theme for him too, because right now, everyone he could interact with is mad at him. And there's another theme he and Charlie could potentially share, which would be pretty plot-relevant: trust.

If Alastor moves into a more villainous role in S3, especially if his plans concern the Morningstars somehow, he's probably going to try and stay on Charlie's good side for a while; in other words, he's going to want her to trust him, at least enough to not interfere. Meanwhile, Vox is a manipulator who's been urging people to trust him for well over half a century, and now no one - including his own friends - has any reason to do so. He also knows Alastor cannot be trusted, has just received a very harsh reminder of that fact, and has seen first hand that Alastor is willing to use Charlie too.

Vox isn't going to offer help out of the goodness of his heart, but if they were forced into contact, I could see him mocking Charlie for trusting Alastor, and laughing (or getting angry) if she tries to argue that Alastor is her friend. Because he knows where that path leads. And even if he didn't say as much, Charlie saw him declaring through tears that the only thing he cared about was killing Alastor. It wouldn't be hard to put the pieces together and realize Vox is speaking from experience (and that he's actually being honest for once. You don't try to kill yourself and everyone around you over some guy unless you were genuinely hurt).

She does still consider Alastor a friend, so I think she'd still try to defend him (maybe he's changed, maybe he had a good reason, maybe Vox misunderstood something, etc). But Vox knows he hasn't changed, he was very clear that they weren't friends, and as far as Vox knows, he didn't do anything wrong (but hey, Alastor couldn't even say something about being touched, so who knows, maybe he did everything wrong). So Charlie trying to defend him would probably just make Vox angry.

I doubt they'd separate on good terms, but it would certainly give her some things to think about. And it could potentially open the door for further interactions, depending on how they ended up talking in the first place.

If trust was a theme between them, I also think there could be potential for a plot beat where Vox did offer help of some kind (probably because he wanted something in return, but if it would upset Alastor's plans, he might just do it out of spite), and Charlie had to decide whether or not it was worth the risk of accepting. Or it could go the other way where she has to ask him for help, and is taking a chance on him not fucking her over. Bonus points if Vox has an opportunity to do so and has to decide whether or not to take it.

It could also go the other way, perhaps while they're in the middle of working together, with Vox needing some help himself. In which case there are two things I would like to see: first, a moment where he freely asks for or accepts help (give or take some grumbling, since they don't really trust each other). Even better if it's a full on collaborative effort, and they have to just deal with needing each other until they can go their separate ways.

And second, if their alliance is because of Alastor, I would very much like to see Charlie at least try to intervene if he's taunting Vox about relying on people again. I doubt Vox would appreciate it, because it would be too easy for Alastor (or his own insecurities) to twist it into needing Charlie to fight his battles for him. But Alastor's mockery is one area where he does, in fact, need support, and so far he hasn't had any.

Needless to say, I'm fully on board with Alastor being the reason they need to work together. Vox is absolutely going to have to face him again eventually, and if Alastor is heading into his villain arc, it would be an interesting parallel if Vox is a key part of his defeat, like he was for Vox. But Alastor's success came from isolating Vox, so if the tables are going to turn, it's going to be because Vox isn't alone this time. And it's going to be Charlie and co. who are trying to stop Alastor, so they're going to be his best option for allies (I say "they", but Charlie is basically the only one who's likely to give him any sort of chance. So).