TMNT Stuff Goes Here

That episode genuinely hurt me, because could you imagine Mikey making these little chirps whenever he tried to talk to his brothers about Aprils mom- and they straight up ignored him. I know their instincts were going crazy hearing those sounds or something.

i seriously need a fic or a quick story of the guys actually listening to Mikey, or how they would’ve had a turtle pile while watching Tv after the whole thing. Idk, I just need Mikey to be cuddled and held so close by his brothers, chirps, churrs, purrs and everything else. His brothers instincts going absolutely crazy-cause they ignored their baby brother like that and he got hurt because of their neglect-

I was very ready to agree with you on this, but I don't?

Don't get me wrong! Just because I disagree with you does NOT make this an invalid opinion, take, or fanfic idea. I welcome anyone to come up in the comment section/reblogs and explain why I'm wrong.

"how can you ignore your baby brother who's never been wrong about a bad feeling like this?" I disagree. He has. He's been wrong multiple times. They list several of the times that he had a wacky-sounding notion in that episode. In other episodes, he very firmly insists on stories about "cottage cheese demons" and "talking cupcakes." (Actually, that might be the same episode.)

Leo and Raph had been taking charge and taking care of everyone (mostly Raph in recent months, but Leo was just stating to get back to that), and they both REALLY wanted to believe a missing parent could miraculously reappear.

Donnie was focused on April, who was obviously all-in on believing this was really her mother.

It was actually rather clever having Mikey be the skeptical one in the episode. Apart from seeing things he couldn't explain, he was probably the best-positioned to be objective and not project his own emotions onto the situation.

I feel like 2012 Donnie really appreciates and needs Mikey's optimism and bright energy. While this idea came from a few moments in the 2012 series I feel like it can be applied to any iteration of turtles. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on other versions 👀

The moments that started this theory for me are in s2ep11 when Mikey tells Donnie he's sorry about him loosing Metalhead and didn't mind when he grabbed his face.

And in s5ep16 when Donnie's hope for curing vampire Raph starts disappearing and Mikey gives him a bright side to encourage him.

The smile that Donnie gives Mikey in both of these moments looks so soft, genuine, and so so grateful. He could have dismissed him, he could have ignored him, but no, he looked at Mikey with that sweet, grateful smile and hope in his eyes. That last moment in particular got me thinking about what it would feel like being the answer and fix it guy all the time for a team constantly saving the world, and what it would it feel like to be smart enough to actually have all those answers.

We've seen that when Donnie doesn't have the solution for whatever threat the turtles are facing it stresses both him and the team out and can cause conflict. He is working hard constantly but he is a teen trying to save the world, he doesn't have all the answers even if his brothers think he does. Donnie also adds pressure on himself to be the one getting answers for his family, and when things don't go the way he plans he gets very upset as he feels responsible.

But when Mikey steps in with his unending optimism and encouragement, Donnie seems to light up even if just a little bit as he feels hope again. Even if he knows that Mikey's optimism is not based on scientific facts, those smiles tell me he really appreciates that Mikey still believes in him and manages to have hope that things will get better despite everything they've been through. Those two moments that started this whole theory show me that Mikey can break Donnie out of his negative spiral when he is struggling to see the bright side to a failed mission or invention. Maybe that is also the reason Donnie keeps letting Mikey hang out in his lab with him. Cause no matter how angry Donnie gets at him for messing with his experiments, Mikey's perspective is also the one that gives him renewed hope when his experiments fail.

I also feel that since Donnie is a scientist and has an unending desire to learn and develop his knowledge, he has an understanding of a lot of the ways the world works. And I can imagine having all those answers would cause someone to end up being pessimistic or having a very gloomy outlook on the future of the world, especially with everything the turtles see. All that information ends up making Donnie a realist, and that means he occasionally struggles to have hope or see a bright side to a situation if his knowledge is telling him what their future's reality is. Add that to having to deal with threats that put his family in actual life or death scenarios where if he doesn't have an answer he could loose them...yeah that would take a toll on the mental health.

The 2012 B-Team’s dynamic, in a nutshell:

Donnie is the solitary cat who shoves himself into the tightest corner just to sleep in peace

Mikey certainly is more climby and boundary-violating between the two:

But Donnie is not immune 😁:

1990 TMNT Raph gets injured and it's Leo who watches over him where

2003 it's Leo who gets injured but has no bathtub and has the entire family there

And there is 2012 injured Leo with bathtub and loved ones (Raph mostly watches countless hours)

(Also, I have no idea if that's a thing with IRL turtles. Please consult an IRL turtle care provider for that question.)

Incoming semi-related-but-not-really theory:

I do wonder if the tub ended up making things worse for 2012 Leo. I tripped over a theory somewhere recently that 12 Leo's months-long coma was actually brumation, a hibernation-like state turtles go into during colder months. It was clearly early winter and snowing at the time of the invasion at the end of season 2, and Leo getting dunked into the cold water in that fight seems to really mess him up for the rest of the scene until Shredder nearly finishes him off. It's possible the 12 boys don't normally brumate, but the trauma of Leo's injuries combined with the cold threw him into that state, and he woke up in spring.

Including his brothers

ep 3 is the worst cuz like. bro

that's MIKEY, the guy who is way too trusting and open minded about people

mikey, the guy who just wants friends and everyone to get along

mikey, the guy who tries to bridge gaps and build relationships

mikey, THE GUY WHO ALWAYS GIVES SOMEONE A SECOND CHANCE

Leo and Raph both really really wanted a parent to reappear and for an adult to show up. Raph had been taking care of everyone for months, Leo was just getting back on his feet (literally), both were worried sick about Splinter.

Donnie was also worried about Splinter, but was also really focused on April's feelings in that episode (as was Casey). And April obviously wasn't going to be objective about what Mikey was saying.

(From Turtlepedia)

I don't really do with the GIFs and such, and unfortunately couldn't find a gif of this particular scene, but it's sticking with me lately.

This is from the Ancient One episode in Season 4, after Leo has attacked Splinter in a rage, and Splinter is sending him to Japan to mentor under the Ancient One - and this moment is the remaining three brothers listening outside the door while they discuss this.

And I think this is sticking with me because the turtles, for all that they're "teenage", are generally more like young adults in this series, but this is a moment that feels like teenage brothers. They just seem very young here, in a way they usually aren't. Right now, they're not heroes who took down Shredder and a bunch of other foes - they're three of four pretty insular siblings who are basically together 24/7 and don't have "personal business". I'm sure all of us who grew up with siblings tried to eavesdrop on a lecture or punishment at some point! But these three eavesdropping hits different, because it reminds the viewer how much of a unit they are most of the time - of course they're not going to wait to hear about this later, they need to know now, because Leo's business is their business.

I think it also hits me just how upset and concerned they all look (while Leo on the other side of the door is also saying he doesn't want to leave*). Leo's been struggling mentally for months by this point, he's clearly getting worse instead of better, he's frankly been moody and insufferable most of the time - and they're all still mildly freaked out about him actually leaving. Like, for 15 years these guys literally didn't even know other people. They've barely been apart, they even sleep dormitory-style. Imagine how weird and upsetting it must be for them to hear that Leo is getting sent across the planet for an indefinite amount of time.

I don't know, it feels like such a childlike moment for all of them, from this presumptuous "of course we're going to listen in, this concerns us too" to "Holy crap he's leaving and We Are Stressed About It."

That said, I can definitely see Raph struggling more with it for a bunch of reasons. There are hints that he struggles with rejection and perceived abandonment in general. The perception that Leo's anger had led to him getting sent away would probably hit him hard, even if he understood that it wasn't intended as a punishment. I can see a real "maybe it could be me next" feeling from that. Especially since he and the others had joked several times that "Leo was acting like Raph."

Additionally, Raph seems to be the one who takes charge when Leo isn't around (and did so during Karai's attack in Scion of the Shredder), so he might end up feeling a lot of pressure on that front - he seemed pretty agitated when Leo found him in Prodigal Son and he wasn't sure if the others were alright.

Finally, and this is semi-headcanon territory for me, but I perceive Raph and Leo as being pretty close in 2k3. They bicker, but there are a bunch of moments through the series of the two rather pointedly spending time together away from the other two, and they seem to trust and rely on each other in a slightly different way than they do with the other two, over whom they both feel more protective. So just Leo away would probably be hard on him.

(From Turtlepedia)

I don't really do with the GIFs and such, and unfortunately couldn't find a gif of this particular scene, but it's sticking with me lately.

This is from the Ancient One episode in Season 4, after Leo has attacked Splinter in a rage, and Splinter is sending him to Japan to mentor under the Ancient One - and this moment is the remaining three brothers listening outside the door while they discuss this.

And I think this is sticking with me because the turtles, for all that they're "teenage", are generally more like young adults in this series, but this is a moment that feels like teenage brothers. They just seem very young here, in a way they usually aren't. Right now, they're not heroes who took down Shredder and a bunch of other foes - they're three of four pretty insular siblings who are basically together 24/7 and don't have "personal business". I'm sure all of us who grew up with siblings tried to eavesdrop on a lecture or punishment at some point! But these three eavesdropping hits different, because it reminds the viewer how much of a unit they are most of the time - of course they're not going to wait to hear about this later, they need to know now, because Leo's business is their business.

I think it also hits me just how upset and concerned they all look (while Leo on the other side of the door is also saying he doesn't want to leave*). Leo's been struggling mentally for months by this point, he's clearly getting worse instead of better, he's frankly been moody and insufferable most of the time - and they're all still mildly freaked out about him actually leaving. Like, for 15 years these guys literally didn't even know other people. They've barely been apart, they even sleep dormitory-style. Imagine how weird and upsetting it must be for them to hear that Leo is getting sent across the planet for an indefinite amount of time.

I don't know, it feels like such a childlike moment for all of them, from this presumptuous "of course we're going to listen in, this concerns us too" to "Holy crap he's leaving and We Are Stressed About It."

That said, I can definitely see Raph struggling more with it for a bunch of reasons. There are hints that he struggles with rejection and perceived abandonment in general. The perception that Leo's anger had led to him getting sent away would probably hit him hard, even if he understood that it wasn't intended as a punishment. I can see a real "maybe it could be me next" feeling from that. Especially since he and the others had joked several times that "Leo was acting like Raph."

Additionally, Raph seems to be the one who takes charge when Leo isn't around (and did so during Karai's attack in Scion of the Shredder), so he might end up feeling a lot of pressure on that front - he seemed pretty agitated when Leo found him in Prodigal Son and he wasn't sure if the others were alright.

Finally, and this is semi-headcanon territory for me, but I perceive Raph and Leo as being pretty close in 2k3. They bicker, but there are a bunch of moments through the series of the two rather pointedly spending time together away from the other two, and they seem to trust and rely on each other in a slightly different way than they do with the other two, over whom they both feel more protective. So just Leo away would probably be hard on him.

This was just supposed to be a simple mindless mirrored drawing to practice vector art and somehow it became this massive 2003 eulogy with tons of references everywhere. I'm really happy with how it came out! :D

I can't tell you the amount of hours I spent on this. If you can find all the references... I'm gonna be amazed honestly because there are so many, from logos, to patterns to even colors. I'd be there all day if I tried describing them all, but I do hope you'll check it out! ^^

Close ups under the cut.

There's a pattern in 2k3 on the occasions when Raph is in charge or giving orders, and Leo is gone or injured or expiating his mental breakdown onto the Rat King or whatever.

But Raph starts giving orders, and Donnie starts... sort of challenging them. Not in an aggressive or argumentative way the way Raph might with Leo, but almost in a "hey, I'm not sure you're considering all the factors here" way.

Typically, he's telling Raph things are too dangerous and they need to retreat/escape/get out of there. Because Raph is a capable leader in these moments, but he's always consistently had an issue with wanting to fight when he shouldn't, and not wanting to retreat when he should. A bunch of his arguments with Leo are about him wanting to charge into situations when Leo wants to take a more measured approach, and when Leo makes them fall back, he's always the last to actually do so. Raph wants to face his enemies head-on and he wants to fight to the end - but in leading the others (and especially given that the team is automatically weaker without Leo), he can't do that.

So Donnie starts getting more vocal that hey, there are too many of these guys and we can't do this. Rat King is too strong, it's dangerous for Leo to fight him alone. I know this is our home and we need to defend it, but there's a zillion of them and now we're all injured and if we don't leave, someone's gonna get killed.

I don't think it's something that's taught or necessarily even consciously done. They are a team, they've trained together all their lives, they know each other's strengths and weaknesses. And they're not always together, they go off on adventures by themselves or in groups of two or three sometimes. They learn to adapt, step up to fill in vacuums, because generally with the 03 boys there isn't a power struggle, it's not about who's on top - it's about who is taking charge, who has noticed something about the situation, who has a different view. They generally feel comfortable to speak up if they disagree on something (though maybe less so while Leo was really struggling), it's just mostly Don and Leo tend to be on the same wavelength, Raph is normally the one to have a different opinion, and Mikey doesn't generally feel the need to jump in, he's pretty comfortable going with whatever everyone else is doing (unless creepy monsters are involved XD). But they all are capable, and Don and Raph are just generally going to have different views on things so he's going to voice those opinions.

It feels like they are this fluid team that can change and adapt as needed, though still kind of fall in some general dynamics based on personality. Could Mikey lead? Sure, he's capable enough, but in the dynamics of his family he's least likely to step up. Don could lead too, but he has no problem deferring to Raph who is just generally a bit more assertive, but he will absolutely push back. I think he'd push back against Leo too if he really felt strongly about something.

I don't know what my point is. I just think it's really fun seeing how they can adapt as the configuration of their group changes. It's not like they change, or their dynamics hugely change, but I think it definitely puts pressure on different dynamics that usually aren't tested - Raph and Donnie don't normally HAVE to be at odds, so Donnie acting in the role of pushing back on Raph's choices is going to strain that relationship a bit until they are able to find a comfortable equilibrium, but it's not like Donnie wouldn't push against Leo or Raph if needed in other circumstances.

Because normally, Leo listens to Raph's suggestions, or explains his reasoning, and Raph respects Leo's talent for strategy and waits when he says to wait. He'll tease Leo about being 'Splinter Junior,' but that's more for when he's trying to convince him to join the rest of them in a bit of teenage rebellion--which, maybe it reveals some underlying tension, but the tension seems very light compared to the warmth.

It's the same when it's Donny and Raph. He sees the blind spots and brings things up. Raph listens. When he has a good reason for letting Leo take all this alone, he explains it without getting mad at Don for questioning him. On the other hand, as much ad he does not want at all to abandon their home or have to split up, he looks around at the situation, sees that Donny is right, and lends his authority and assertiveness to the idea, later taking responsibility for it as if it were his call when he sees Leo again.

There's a lot of respect, and it does show kind of a half-step up from their usual level of maturity with each other. Which makes sense for serious situations.

Also, about Donny pushing back against Leo too in other circumstances--yes! He's very firm about going back to the Underground City; only Mikey pushes back, but Leo and Raph do seem to be responding to 'this is important to Donny' at least as much as 'this is important to do.' In City at War, Donny does keep saying that this is a lot, that they're in over their heads. He just says it a lot more calmly, which is also the case when he pushes back against Raph. Except he's also not often saying it directly to Leo because Raph is already doing that, and we see right from the start of the episode that Donny is more bothered by the family tension it's causing than anything else (which is why he goes once he sees it matter to Mikey). One of the best examples is J'hanna--Leo and Raph are both ready to fight, and Mikey would have gone along with it, and Donny is firm getting them to stand down while he tries to communicate. Also, when Leo scolds them at the end of Dragons Rising, it's Don who counters him.

Anyway it reminds me a lot of grocery shopping with my older sisters and younger brother, which is kinda crazy, why did we take that so seriously ahshdjaj (actually it's because shopping involves driving and we were right for that). There is a Pecking Order, except that's a bad term to use because it's not about who gets to domineer or pick on the others, it's who's most experienced and therefore in charge, and who's responsible for helping them shoulder that, and at what point do the rest of us also try to help so that it's not all on them but we're also not creating chaos with 4 leaders. Driver and shotgun, es importante

And it does make me realize that the way Don acts with both Leo and Raph still fundamentally ties into his role on the team - he's the information guy. It's true that he can and does push back or assert himself when he needs to, but a major part of what he does when they're together is maintain situational awareness and feed a bunch of information to whoever's in charge. He just sort of tailors what he looks for and how he says it.

I feel with Leo most of the time, he's more matter of fact. I think he trusts Leo a lot as leader, he usually isn't interested in arguing with Leo's orders or decisions unless something is really important to him or he sees a really good reason to. And the four of them are strongest together, so everyone is usually feeling pretty confident. But he does provide Leo with as much information as he can about their surroundings or what they're up against, so Leo can incorporate those facts into his decisions. Leo relies on Don a lot for this too, as he himself acknowledges during the Good Genes arc. I've written elsewhere that "if Leo seems like he has all the answers, it's because Don is slipping him notes."

With Raph, Don's input tends to be more immediate and urgent, but I don't think this is strictly to do with Raph or how he leads. It's more that, in any situation that doesn't involve Leo, they're already weakened. The situation is already dangerous, and in some of the situations where Leo's been taken out, that's been part of a targeted operation by the Foot to completely overwhelm them. And yes, Don knows Raph is a great fighter, but that he may get caught up in the adrenaline of the situation. So Don takes up the calculating and strategizing Leo would normally do, and makes sure Raph keeps his situational awareness that a) they're one brother down (one of the stronger brothers too) and in a weakened state, and b) there are dozens of Foot streaming into wherever they are, entirely intent on killing them.

In the vein that Don is capable of also leading (as is Mikey), I do find this interesting when Donny and Mikey are together. I tend to interpret their dynamic as Donny being more or less in charge between the two of them, and definitely the strategist - but it tends to be a very collaborative pairing, Mikey is probably more active and assertive with Don than he usually is when paired with Leo or Raph. Mikey's fairly deferential to all three, despite his usual joking and goofing around, but I feel when he and Don are together, Mikey suddenly starts popping in with extra information and suggestions, he's asking more questions, he's improvising when things go wrong, he even orders Don to do things sometimes! While Donny is a strong strategist, I find he doesn't always pivot well if his plans start going off the rails. He tends to rely on Raph or Mikey to sort of act fast and bail them out when that happens. But it is that adaptability again. It's not that Mikey trusts Donny less or sees him as less capable, it's that when there are three or more brothers together, he doesn't need to jump in much because he knows they have it covered. When it's just the two of them, he knows he needs to take a more active role.

In season 5, Donatello helped Dr. Victor Frankenstein make his infamous monster (dubbed Frank by Michelangelo).