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After making this theory on the truth of reincarnation, and how Phanes and or Lusalim applied the dragons research to enable reincarnation even if not in dragon form, I want to show you another side of it that makes sense in other parts of the lore. Namely the recurring theme of "using up the planet".
It first appears here, in the mechanical duck level up material.
(note the use of the words "perpetually" and "machine".)
This says clearly that Xuihcoatl had indeed pondered this conundrum and went against it.
Then we have this other instance of "using up the planet", the allegorical tale of the day king.
(note the use of the same words, "perpetual" and "machine".)
I had first thought this was a tale about Khaenri'ah (because "perpetual motion machine" is a Khaenri'ahn concept, but now it seems it was as old as the dragons). However, after the moon lore, I realized this could also go for Phanes. He did try to "perpetuate" this cycle into infinity to attain "eternity".
Also, since Xui was wary about reincarnation, then it stands to reason that the one that applied the reincarnation system Lusalim was working on was Phanes and not the dragons. (and we established in my previous theory post that it was applied because Neuvillette is walking proof.)
There is also another weirder case though, that it was not Phanes, but actually really was Khaenri'ah, that eventually found the dragons' research and applied the reincarnation system. Hence them getting cursed with immortality so they cannot die and reincarnate and use up the planet and doom it in the process. But for some inexplicable reason (could be because they are vishap people), it also applied to the dragons, hence Neuvillette got reincarnated but only after the cataclysm. (He was dead for a while, this explains why the timing. It happened one century after the cataclysm when he's been dead for millennia... rather odd timing.)
This also kind of aligns with how intrinsically connected the Khaenri'ahns are to the dragons. We have yet to know why for sure, but Khaenri'ahns are full of dragon motifs (just look at Thrain), and there is also the Nibelung/Alberich connection. Those two names come from the same story and if you know it you understand why it's so weird we have an Alberich in Khaenri'ah. Not to mention Rhinedottir "gold". There are also other weird coincidences, like Irminsul the king that is named after the dragons' tree.
Then, there is the slightly crazier theory that sort of combines all of this. That Khaenri'ah, being hidden from Phanes' gaze and not being a part of the system of the seven, never got Phanes' reincarnation update, so they made their own. And it "competed" with Phanes' system so they were "inhibited".
And the curse "must" stand... like it was not about punishment at all.
She forsook her own rule for it... That's how necessary it is.
Also
In any case, reincarnation seems to be a bad idea in Teyvat, but it also seems at least someone didn't care. We have yet to see who for certain though.
That paragraph says it all if you give it enough thought, but I will still go through it and what it might mean for the lore because this is the biggest "vishap people" proof I have gotten so far. (Thank you Enjou for your enlightenment 5 years ago.)
First let me remind you how this Lusalim was the dragon that betrayed dragonkin and bargained with the reaver using all the dragon's research data to preserve the frost moon just so he can send a message into nothingness.
That research was the basis for the fake sky, the data manipulation Irminsul is capable of, and even cognitive disruptions... in short, everything Phanes has moddified in Teyvat you will find an explanation for in the dragon's findings.
In any case, this is important for only one reason, that even if the dragons did not have time to implement this reincarnation system, then Phanes likely did. There is also the possibility that Lusalim continued to work on it while on Phanes's side.
This also lines up with how Dottore was talking about his soul last patch and refering to it as "data", just like in this research log.
So the takeaway is, the reincarnation system is in place.
But this was already evident due to a certain sovereign. Neuvillette.
Think on it, the dragons were looking for a way to reincarnate, that means that they did not naturally do so. Which means if one of them did reincarnate, then that research was finally completed.
Also, I had previously talked about why Neuvillette being reborn in human form was not due to "vishap purity", and I had come to that conclusion due to a contradiction in the logic of the people of Enkanomiya (the ones that said that). Here is the post in case you are interested.
Moreover, the dragons specify clearly that the form could be different from that of a dragon's... it lines up perfectly with Neuvillette's case.
This gives us one interesting case study... dragon king Nibelung.
Nibelung came back to Teyvat and was allegedly defeated. No one is clear on that at all. Some even phrase it as an assumption. But in the end, there are only three possiblities. Nibelung died. Nibelung did not die. Or that was not Nibelung at all. (some say its was the abyss in his form and he is still out in space and I think that is very valid and I might write about it at some point.)
Case one, he died. Then according to Neuvillette's vision story, he likely already reincarnated and made the Gnoses with Phanes. There is also the slight possibility, though small, that Nibelung is not the second descender. This would just mean he will reincarnate eventually like Neuvillette anyway. The answer is always the same with this case because Neuvillette proves the reincarnation system is working. This also means Nibelung is/will be likely in human form. (I think it might be Vedrfolnir.)
Case two, he did not die. That means he is hiding somewhere and we just need to find him.
Case three, that was not Nibelung. That means he is still in deep space and we also just need to find him.
So in conclusion, either the dragon king is in human form... or we need to find him.
To summarize, my main concerns are, [1] dragons do not naturally reincarnate and that was done through research, [2] that research is the real reason Neuvillette is in human form and you should not believe the idiots in Enkanomiya when it comes to reasoning as they had contradictions in their logic, you are better off believing Enjou, [3] Nibelung is likely in human form as well, and if not then he is in deep space or hidden somewhere, not to mention the other sovereigns that died will likely come back as humans (I am looking at you Xui.)
My question is, do the fatui already know about the moon laser or would it be like:
Pierro: we need a weapon, strong enough to defeat phanes
Traveler: we could use the laser on the moon
Tsaritsa: the what on the what now
Traveler: yeah the one the dragon king built. On the moon
Everyone: HUH?
That sounds funny, and considering how the game loves to put the traveler as the savior and the bringer of solutions, this might actually happen. But honestly, from what we know of Pierro, he likely already knows. We have evidence he gives lectures about the fake sky and descenders and stuff... that guy knows all sorts of forbidden shit, I can feel it. I seriously want to go ask him where Nibbie is because I feel like he might have an answer.
And in any case, the fatui logo is still a mystery to us... a suspiciously moon laser shaped mystery, so them knowing already would make more sense. Unless there is a reason the moon laser is shaped like that and they both just draw inspiration from the same source. Both are valid really.
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Nibelung the Wise and Benevolent (and slightly naive)
I don't remember who started those rumors about Nibelung being unreasonable and against unification... but whomever in Teyvat started that, I hope a pillar finds you.
Hahahaha, I had not thought of that but I see your point. Ouroboros is Dain's constellation and I wonder if he shares a constellation with his brother… or if he just has that because of his brother.
But this all just reminds me of Enkanomiya with its Delphi Pythos and Serpent's Heart / Heart of Ouroboros and how all that seemed way too connected to Vedrfolnir. And coincidentally, it's the place where we learn about vishap people too. Something is up with Ved and its not the seer business or the sinner business...
Crack theory feofan electro sovereign? He’s mad he doesn’t have a vision and that’s why he hates gods but that could be a lie. That man’s hiding something. It makes no sense but it would be dope
I love dragons so I don't mind such crack theories. He looks more dragon than a sovereign so it's not too far fetched. I am still looking for Nibelung's reincarnation too. After the moon lore, I am certain I was right about how Neuvillette's reincarnation as a human had nothing to do with the vishaps. The dragons did research into reincarnation and said the form did not have to be that of a dragon's. That research ended up in Phanes's hands, so even if not them, he must have done it at some point, and the proof in Neuvillette. (also, don't you think it's odd dragons searched for a way to reincarnate in the first place? it means they don't naturally... in any case, I will likely write these theories soon.)
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I have a sort of half-baked theory about celestial nails and irminsuls. My theory is that there used to be 7 irminsuls, each for one sovereign, and the ley lines function as a server so that if one original goes down, the others take the brunt of the work. Most are obvious, but my theory is that one of the irminsuls in Sumeru is actually the hydro irminsul. Possibly the one we know (pre dottore)
The heavenly principles, and one point or another, dropped celestial nails on them to “get rid of forbidden knowledge”. This also denied the power of the ley lines from the sovereigns.
If the irminsul we see IS the hydro one, it could have been given to Rukkhadevata by Egeria. This is where it gets murky, but it just makes sense to give the god of wisdom the irminsul tree
Okay, definitely the first I've heard of this, so I like it already. My only problem is that Apep tells us the tree wasn't always like that and it functioned very differently in the past. So I suppose unless we find out what the tree and leylines did during the dragon times, this part remains a bit vague. However I do like the novelty of that theory. I'll definitely keep it in mind as the story progresses, maybe you are onto something.
hello hello, I’m a new player (just started the second chapter of liyue today) and was wondering if you had advice on how to best understand the lore? I joined sooo late and there’s so much I wanna know more about (the heavenly principles, etc) I wanna learn more about the lore but there’s a lot of different ways to (the books, weapon lore, story quests) and it’s a bit overwhelming. Are these things completely necessary to get a basic understanding of things? Or would the archon quests best fulfill this? Ty for any advice if you’re seeing this:)
Hi. As someone who played from the very start, and a lore enthusiast, this is a tricky question to answer. But I will try to break things down for you in level of importance. Bear in mind though, that every player plays differently and their experiences can vary a lot as a result. So there is no right or wrong way. Just enjoy the game, and use this as a guide to where you can find more lore if you feel like diving in a certain topic.
The Archon quests alone are not exactly enough. At least do the world quests with them. And the character quests. So just all quests in general are important as a basis. Some hangouts have some interesting bits, but those are not on the same level at all though. (only Kaeya's is but he is in a different category all together.)
And certain previous event quests have a lot of important lore. Like the "three realms gateway" event and durin events and simulanka and stuff like that. You might want to watch those (since event quests are not permanent content, meaning they are no longer available in the game), but that is if their topic interests you. Otherwise ignore them, they can be a lot at first.
With all that, you get the bare minimum of lore I think. A very solid basis.
Then there are many sources for supplementary lore if you need it or are just curious.
First come the books, especially ones like "before sun and moon", "hymns of the far north", "perinheri", etc. They have a lot of important lore. Some books are even posed as fairy tales because they are allegories so that phanes doesn't smite the writer. (You will understand more on this in the sumeru archon quest.) This makes books very important as they have hidden lore, but they are also fallible. (Again, sumeru archon quest.) But note that some books are useless, not all are lore books.
The artifact set descriptions however are infallible, unlike books, for some reason no one understands even today, and full of lore as well. They are mostly as obscure as those allegory books, but at least you know that their information is true and not subject to tampering. That is the only reason I have read them all. (No I don't read all the books. The only source I cover completely is the quests. And the artifacts.)
Then there are character stories (The written ones that you can read when you get a character) and their voicelines. Those have a lot of lore too, and even if you don't want the character but the character is important or their lore is connected to a topic you are interested in, I'd recommend reading them from the wiki. Just pick and choose what interests you.
All three previous points (books, artifacts, character info) are on the same level of importance I think. The level right after "quest" level. So the next source to look into when you want more information.
Then there comes things like weapon descriptions and item descriptions, even drops have some interesting lore. But all of that feels far more secondary. There are a few very important weapon descriptions however, but they are mostly tied to their characters lore so you can usually tell when you would want to read a weapon description or when it would not interest you. Like Ineffa's weapon description has lore tied to her own lore so it was obvious I would have wanted to read that. (I will not say the subject since that is a spoiler.)
After that there is the lowest tier, videos. Genshin makes a lot of videos and some contain lore too.
Videos like "a winter nights lazzo" and "the gods limits" and stuff like that have some neat lore. Especially the "travail" video. In it, Dainsleif introduces every region and a bit of lore about it. I recommend watching it if you haven't.
Then there is something that few consider lore these days, but as someone who spent years used to it, I think it was very important and I hate how they stopped it after Natlan. Dainsleif's collected miscellany videos. He used to describe how the new character works then lore dump at the end. Those end lines were usually very interesting.
Overall, I just want you to know that even I have never read every piece of lore in genshin. We mostly focus on the topics that interest us (me with dragons as a main, then fatui, khaenriah, and abyss secondary) and move from there. Genshin lore is a lot, so apart from quests, the rest is not mandatory but very helpful if you want a deeper picture on certain topics.
As for the heavenly principles that you seem interested in.... well, start with the book "before sun and moon" that you will find once you reach a region called "Enkanomiya" or "Byakuyakoku" (its in Inazuma). The rest will make itself apparent with the quests as you go, and you will eventually know whether this character or this book or whatever is related to what you want to know.
So, take it slow, don't overwhelm yourself, and dive in when you feel like it. But quests are the basis so keep that in mind.
Also, if you ever need a veteran player and lore enthusiast to ask, you are always free to ask me. I hope you enjoy genshin and find your own little lore focus. <3
p.s: avoid online discussions because they will spoil the game a lot. unless you are okay with that.
A Snezhnaya trailer, home to the fatui HE founded. All the harbingers are there, the ones HE gathered. They are debating over project stuzha, the project HE is leading. The "her majesty the tsaritsa" is here, the one HE can't stop talking about... and we don't even catch a glimpse of HIM???
Worst trailer in history for me. I am going to go sulk somewhere...
The Traveler Will Likely Oppose Pierro and The Fatui (like an idiot)
Pantalone says something rather familiar to me in the new quest when he talks to us in this part, and I dare say, it was expected at this point.
What Pantalone says in this part firmly cements my opinion that the traveler is an idiot and ultimately and unwittingly opposes those trying to break free of the shackles imposed by the heavenly principles, because the traveler simply does "what is right" without having even a slight understanding of this world. They even unwittingly oppose their own sibling...
How can you know what is "right" if you don't even understand this world. Pantalone is right. It's something that I too have noticed for a while and even wrote about at some point. The traveler is simply obeying commands, especially those of the usurpers, and in doing so is only reinforcing the sorry state of affairs this world is in.
Also, Pierro's little "lecture" in the nod krai teaser tells me the traveler is very likely to "intervene" and try to stop their plans.
Pierro says "Lives will be lost. A nation brought to ruins. So be it. It is nothing I have not endured before." To me this says he is more than willing to ruin Snezhnaya for the completion of his plans. And rightfully so. Teyvat is already at the end of its cycle. If something can be done, it should be done now.
But I have no doubt the traveler is going to meet a few vision users in Snezhnaya, sympathize with them, then storm the palace to stop whatever is going on. No heed for the will of those involved. No foresight into why this is being done. Like always.
As long as they are labeled as "villains", the traveler does not even think before they act. Trampling on whatever it is that they are doing to stop them.
Dottore proved that to us so painfully, I have never hated the traveler more. Not because they stopped Dottore, but because they did not even think. They did not consider. He was always the "villain" therefore he should not even be heard...
I just hope that even though it's likely starting that way, it doesn't end like that. It would be such a bad ending.
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The only dragons we don’t know about are electro and Cryo, so I’m guessing Pulcinella is related to the Cryo sovereign in some way
(As for electro… give me more electro lore)
I have no idea about Pulcinella since it can literally be anything at this point, so it does not exclude your opinion at all.
But as for the electro sovereign... some very obvious contradictions in the game could lead us to the conclusion it might be Orobashi.
Neuvillette was born in human form, and according to the Enka notes, it's because vishaps were "impure"... but not only does that imply humans are purer, it also negates what the Enka notes said later, about how the light realm creatures (vishaps) and the human realm creatures (orobashi) are incompatible.
So its either that was not the reason Neuvillette was born in human form, or light realm and human realm are not THAT incompatible and they were just very shabby researchers. It also means that Orobashi could have been also reborn into a "human" realm form. Not a human per se, but still belonging to the human realm.
In either case, it reminds me of what Kukulkan said. How when the "holy soil" (yes same as Enka, and it simply means soil rich in light realm energy) was destroyed by the reaver, the dragons in Natlan devolved into the saurians.
I am almost certain that if Orobashi was human realm, so are the saurians... which mean that it is highly likely Vivi simply devolved. Which also means the same could have happened to Bashi. And even if Vivi is simply in human form but still part of the light realm... that begs the question WHY the human form is part of the light realm at all. So we are still back to square one.
Anyway, this is just one line of thought. This topic of dragon evolution has so many other conclusions, I have multiple posts where we take a different path of reasoning and come to wildly different conclusions.
Like dragons originally looked human, and they either evolved or devolved to their current forms thanks to Phanes. Or that there is no human realm at all to begin with and the human form is also draconic and Phanes copied it (like everything else) and is lying to everyone's face like always. And all those conclusions are still plausible because the Enka notes have a clear contradiction.
"The vishap lord is reborn in human form due to vishaps being impure, but at the same time vishaps and humans are incompatible." The implication on the human form due to that contradicting sentence is far greater than most realize. And trying to make sense of it leads to wild results. I simply hope they address it some day. Vivi still wonders why he is in the form he is in, and I personally don't think the Enka notes are a sufficient explanation. So I hope they at least answer him on that.
I am also certain that if anyone knows the answer, its Bashi. Regardless of whether he is a sovereign or not. If only the usurpers didn't kill him... His home is also a source of a lot of lore that I think might be relevant to Vedrfolnir too. Alas, Bashi is dead, so we can only wait and see.
I know you probably weren't expecting that rant, but I live for dragon lore. I want to know everything about the sovereigns and Nibelung. I hope it wasn't too long or too messy. Thanks for asking, whomever you are.
I don't know what that makes him, but whatever it is it has a connection to dragons. Could be anything from a vishap person (like Neuvillette) to a fae to something new entirely but still made from dragon remains (like angels). In any case, a draconic connection is certain at this point.