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Over the years, other people and I have received somewhat heated asks that demonstrate a lack of knowledge about what John Gardner, literary author and teacher, called the fictive dream and how it applies to all stories -- including That '70s Show.
For people who'd like to learn why certain of Hyde and other T7S characters' actions are (considered) OOC (by others), read this meta. You'll also learn about what's called character drift, a problem that afflicts many TV shows.
No main character on T7S is exempt from the writers forcing them to act against their long-established natures to serve plot and punchline. When plot and punchline is put first, character consistency suffers.
Hyde sleeping with the nurse in S5 tends to divide T7S fans about whether or not it's in-character. Read this meta for why I believe it's not in-character and why the showrunners and writers seemed to have known it was out of character, too. Reading the text (i.e. dialogue and actions of the characters) closely often reveals the truth. 🧐
As a T7S fan, an author, and a scholar of literature, my fidelity is to proper storytelling -- regardless if the story goes in the direction I want. When I watch a TV show, character manipulation and character drift pop out at me. This is a different phenomenon than simply not liking a story choice; if that choice makes character sense (i.e. doesn't break the fictive dream), I'll accept it even if I wish the writers had made a different choice.
Here's a snippet from 'Love, Wisconsin Style' for this Wednesday. As I mentioned on ao3, this upcoming chapter more so focuses on what I'd consider 'missing scenes' and only a few adjustments. One such 'missing scene' is featured here, between Jackie and Kitty.
'Flowers in Her Hair' is still expected to update later this week -- though possibly Saturday instead of my usual Friday upload. Just working through a minor writing snag on the next chapter, and I'm not sure I'll have time to complete it between now and Friday.
Anyway! Onto the snippet!
--
Despite the fact that both she and Steven had broken their rules, the Formans’ had been kind to her. They allowed her to sleep in Laurie’s room instead of kicking her out, and it smelled like delectable, fresh pancakes when she woke up.
She didn’t sleep as well as she had for the past month, having become accustomed to sleeping in Steven’s arms, but she’d slept well enough. It was a little embarrassing to have become so reliant on him, but it was too late for her to go back and do things differently.
She didn’t know what she was going to do now that they had been discovered, but she was going to worry about that later. For now, she was going to worry about doing everything she could to make herself as beautiful as could be—knowing that she looked pretty would make her feel better, no matter what difficult decisions she had to face.
After Jackie showered, she sat at Laurie’s vanity to do her makeup, just before she heard a knock at the door.
“Come in!” Jackie called, glancing over her shoulder to see Mrs. Forman enter the room. “Good morning, Mrs. Forman!”
“Good morning Jackie!” Mrs. Forman said, before she lifted her hands to show off a couple of ribbons in colors that flattered her outfit. “I noticed your outfit and realized I had some leftover ribbon in my crafting supplies that matched—I was wondering if you wanted some help doing your hair this morning.”
Jackie smiled, eager to accept the opportunity to be pampered. “I suppose I could let you help me with my hair, Mrs. Forman.”
“Believe it or not, Laurie used to let me do her hair when she was little,” Mrs. Forman said with a laugh. Mrs. Forman placed the ribbons down on the vanity and grabbed a brush, and then smiled in the mirror.
Jackie chewed the inside of her cheek and then glanced down at her lap. “Well, you know, I’m not a little girl, Mrs. Forman.”
“No, but are you too old to have your hair styled?”
Jackie was quiet for a moment as she considered the question. If she wanted to be stubborn or act proud, chances were that Mrs. Forman would just renege on her offer and go back downstairs. However, the reality was that receiving special attention from Mrs. Forman felt comforting, especially after dealing with both of her parents being absent for the past two months.
“No, I’m not.”
“Well, all righty then!” Mrs. Forman said brightly, and then began to pull the brush through her dark hair.
Jackie’s eyes closed at the pleasant feeling of her hair being brushed, and she felt herself swept up in the moment. She couldn’t remember the last time her mother had done something similar for her. Perhaps when she had been very little, before her mother’s career had fully taken off. It was a long, distant dream of the past.
“So, your mother is still out of the country?” Mrs. Forman asked after a minute.
I appreciate your response! And I agree of your analysis of Hyde and think he is ofc highly protective of people around him. Eric is my favorite character though I think he absolutely demonstrates full altruism over and over again. Even in a couple of the answers you responded to. First of all Eric supported Jackie when she thought she was pregnant season 1 not season 4, this was when Eric was really annoyed by her and had no reason to help her other than she came to him and he’s a good person. Second he can put aside his feelings for people he seriously doesn’t like and help them anyway, like Mitch and also Lorie. Even when Mitch is super annoying and hits on his GF Eric feels bad he doesn’t have any friends and lets him hang with them. Rest of the gang including Hyde was annoyed he extended that invitation. And Lorie well we all know they hated each other but he had chances to be as awful to her as she was to him but didn’t take them. His compassion is not always self motivated as you say. And frankly Hydes was at times or could be interpreted that way too. Ex, are you kidding me, he went to prom bc he’s a teenager and didn’t want to be left out and wanted to get laid (and did) in addition to doing a kind thing for Jackie.
Ah, I misread part of your previous ask. I thought you’d referenced only when Eric helped Jackie in season 4 in “Jackie’s Cheese Squeeze," which is why I didn’t write about “The Pill” (S1). Sorry about that. 😊
I absolutely think Eric is altruistic many times when he’s supporting or protecting someone. I also don't think Hyde is always purely altruistic when he’s supporting or protecting someone. It’s both/and, not either/or. The thesis of my response to your original ask is that Hyde and Eric experience different types of consequence when they do support others. Whereas Eric generally takes emotional risks that don’t, or won’t, have an existential aftermath that might threaten his safety, Hyde often negates his own safety to help someone else. Altruism and self-sacrifice are not the same. My previous post goes into extensive detail about these differences, so I won’t rehash it here.
The text of “Prom Night” (1x19) doesn’t support your interpretation of Hyde’s reasons for going to Prom. In fact, it disproves them. The scene in the basement between Jackie and Hyde is as follows.
Jackie sighs loudly a few times while Hyde watches TV.
Hyde: Jackie, if I asked you what's wrong, will you stop doing that?
Jackie: It's the prom. Stupid Michael's taking stupid Pam Macy. And I don't have a date, but I told him I did, and I'm a complete loser.
Hyde (laughs then stops himself): No, you're not.
Jackie: It's just that, like, I thought he was gonna ask me. And now everyone who's anyone is already going.
Hyde: That is so true.
Jackie: How would you know? You're not even going. ... You're not even going! And I bet you clean up real good.
Hyde: Well, I do, but I won't. See, that's a big part of who I am.
Jackie: Look, I know we've had our differences, but --
Hyde: Jackie, we've had nothing but differences. In fact, don't we kind of hate each other?
Jackie: Yes, but this is the prom! [Starts crying in Hyde's lap.]
Hyde: Jackie, stop. ... Stop crying. ... Stop it. [Pauses for a beat.] Look, do you want to go to the prom?
Jackie stops crying, straightens up, and says, "Yes."
End scene
***
Your ask claims (in a somewhat combative manner) that "Hyde went to [P]rom [because] he's a teenager and didn't want to be left out (...)
The episode reveals the opposite. Jackie says not once but twice to Hyde, "You're not going [to Prom]."
Your ask also claims Hyde wants to go to Prom "because he wanted to get laid (...) ."
In the scene transcribed above, Jackie tries to coax Hyde subtly into taking her to Prom by saying, "And I bet you clean up real good." Hyde sees through what she wants, however, and rejects it by saying, "Well, I do, but I won't."
Hyde has absolutely no interest in attending Prom. Getting laid at Prom is not in his head. He goes only because Jackie cries (or fake cries), and he's uncomfortable with her pain. He wants to make her pain stop, which is why he goes to Prom, and it's the only reason he goes.
In order to reconcile Jackie and Kelso at Prom, Hyde knows he has to distract Kelso's date, Pam Macy. He does so by asking if she's "ever seen the backseat of a Lincoln Continental," and she answers, "Lots of times." He follows up by saying, "Would you like to see another one?" She says, "Sure."
Hyde is clearly asking Pam to fool around, likely to have sex, in Jack Burkhart's car. Hyde "get[s] laid" because of a series of choices and events that lead to it. Not because it's a motive to go to Prom.
One is entitled to one's own opinions but not to one's own facts.
But I appreciate the mostly respectful manner in which you argued your point of view. I understand that people become emotionally attached to fictional characters. I'm not exempt from this phenomenon. But I also prefer to keep my emotions out of analyses or debates about characters.
I've written many analyses where I rip plenty of Hyde's choices and behavior to shreds (based on the text of the show). He's an inconsistently written character, and I choose what's consistent about his depiction throughout T7S to decide what I consider the canonical Hyde. Others might choose different consistent aspects than I do to decide their canonical version of Hyde. Another segment of T7S's fans accept everything shown on-screen as canonical despite significant discrepancies in characterization in different episodes. None of us is wrong. We simply have different approaches to the text.
Eric, I think, is the most consistently written character on T7S. He's not at 100% consistency. He's manipulated to serve plot at times just like all the main characters are. He's also an underdog, to use your term, and it makes sense that he'd be protective of another underdog if he recognizes a person as such.
Protecting the vulnerable is part of who Eric is, to be sure, but it's not one of his core drives. It is one of Hyde's, though, and essentially compulsive for him. Therein lies another difference. This is not a value judgment but an observation.
I hope this post lands as intended, and I wish you well. ☺️
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That’s an interesting analysis. Eric was protective of Kitty at various points when he thought his dad was stepping out on her or not supporting her, protective of Donna like tons of times when he thought someone was taking advantage of her, protective of Jackie when Kelso was gonna break up with her when they thought she was pregnant, protective of Mitch’s feelings, inviting him to hang with the gang even when he was awful to him. I can probably think of even more.
Hi!
My post on the subject covered that aspect of Eric without giving specific examples. Same as Hyde, no specific examples.
I’ll quote my post then explain with examples the difference between Eric’s selective empathy with Hyde’s more universal one. Then I'll discuss what's at stake for Eric vs. Hyde when they show and act on empathy.
Eric's empathy is more selective, but he is a compassionate person.
The people named in your ask:
His mother (Kitty)
His girlfriend/fianceé/love of his life (Donna)
Jackie (inconsistent antagonist; consistent supporter of his relationship with Donna; his one-time hero vs. Laurie)
Mitch (consistent antagonist who reveals his vulnerability to Eric once, which Eric can relate to, only to be betrayed by Mitch as a result of showing him empathy).
Eric has a close, positive relationship with his mom and Donna.
By season 4, Jackie is no longer a stranger to Eric but someone he's witnessed -- and passively enabled -- harm being done to her by Kelso. By helping her with Kelso in S4, he's (likely subconsciously) making up for his inaction while Kelso cheated on her with his sister.
Mitch is Eric's nemesis, one who's pathologically jealous of what Eric has in family, friends, and girlfriend. When Mitch finally seems to capitulate by expressing what seems to drive his relentless antagonism toward Eric, Eric's compassion isn't fully altruistic. It's also self-serving. Finally, he believes -- as is evident from his dialogue and actions -- Mitch will leave him alone after a public truce. Mitch played him, of course, and used Eric's words of peace to mock him.
[Hyde] doesn't distinguish between friend or stranger, vulnerable antagonist or vulnerable father (Bud) who betrayed him but needs help paying the rent.
Jackie (consistent antagonist to boundary invader to girlfriend)
Eric (best friend since first grade)
Fez (stranger then friend)
Donna (very close friend since first grade)
Kelso (very close friend since first grade to antagonist)
Kitty (parental guardian)
Red (parental guardian)
Leo (boss to boss-friend to father/son figure)
Mitch (random classmate)
Caroline (virtual stranger; Fez's relatively new girlfriend)
Bud (the alcoholic [step]father who abandoned Hyde when Hyde was nine)
Kelso and Brooke's unborn baby (stranger)
Eric, Donna, Kelso, Kitty, Red, and Leo need little explanation. They're personal relationships.
Jackie is a complex case. They "kind of hate each other," he says to her in "Prom Night," yet he still helps her when they're antagonists.
In season 2, although his friendship loyalty is to Kelso, his personal moral code drives him to help Jackie catch Kelso cheating. He doesn't like her as a person; he states this fact directly in "Kelso's Serenade" (2x21). Yet he still supports her in the aftermath of her dumping Kelso. Once she starts idolizing him and invading his boundaries, he continues to protect her despite her unwelcome behavior.
Mitch: Hyde -- along with Eric and their guy friends -- make sure to get Mitch to the hospital after Eric's golf ball knocks Mitch unconscious.
Caroline is stuck at The Hub at night without a car. She's afraid to walk home. Hyde barely knows her, has no personal connection to her, but offers to drive her home and does. (To be fair, I think Eric would've done the same.)
Bud: Hyde chooses to moves in with Bud in "Hyde's Father" (3x03) and gives him money to cover his rent. Hyde knows full-well Bud is using him, but he helps Bud anyway despite the history of neglect and abuse because, as he tells Red, "He's my father." Hyde's childhood wounding is at work here. He puts his anger aside and helps the man who continues to abuse him as soon as they "reunite". (Recovering alcoholic Bud uses beer and a strip club to blunt Hyde's anger at him -- a lot of manipulation going on.)
Fez: Hyde, Eric, and Kelso first discover him stuck on a hook in a gym closet at school. He was put there by jocks. Kelso wants to abuse Fez further, which Hyde stops, and Eric is relatively passive about the situation. Hyde, though, lifts Fez off the hook. Hyde tells Fez to go to him if anyone bothers Fez again -- because Hyde will take care of the problem and protect Fez from more harassment. Hyde proves his word when Kelso begins bullying Fez verbally and tackles Kelso to the ground.
Kelso and Brooke's unborn baby: Hyde does not want another child to experience what he did while growing up. No father (while physically present in the home and after he left) and how his father's absence deeply affected his mother and her treatment of him.
The real core of my argument, however, that Hyde is more protective is the following (and your ask inspired me to think more deeply about my answer):
The consequences and cost to Eric showing compassion are far less dire than those to Hyde. Eric takes emotional risks, particularly with Red in season 5 and that one episode with Mitch. His most significant life-altering choice is delaying college after his father's heart attack. But it is a delay, not a full sacrifice (it would've been a much shorter delay had Red not spent Eric's college fund, which real!Red never would've done; plot manipulating character).
Hyde, in contrast, risks his physical safety and core emotional safety.
In "Prom Night" (1x19), Hyde spends what little money he has to give someone he actively dislikes (i.e. Jackie) as good an experience as possible at Prom while she's heartbroken. He hates dances, but Jackie's needs are more important to him than his discomfort. He dislikes dancing, but he dances with Jackie while trying to comfort her.
He spends much of season 1 trying to convince Kelso to dump Jackie because she's a disruptive presence in the basement, controlling, and abrasive. Yet in "Prom Night," Hyde puts what he wants aside because both Jackie, an antagonistic he feels compassion for, and one of his best friends are miserable apart. He reconciles them
In "The Good Son" (1x25), had Eric taken responsibility for breaking the living room TV, Red would not put him on the street. Her ground him and make him pay for a new television. Hyde, newly moved-in to the Forman home, could've been kicked out for such a transgression. As far as Hyde's concerned, he has no reason to think otherwise. Yet he takes the blame for Eric's actions out of gratitude and friendship and to protect Eric from non-existential consequences Hyde himself might face.
In "Cat Fight Club" (2x25), Hyde teaches Jackie one of his own self-protection techniques so she can stop being victimized by Laurie, who is also Kelso's proxy. By revealing to Jackie how he's protected himself for years, he also makes himself extremely vulnerable to Jackie. She can see through this vital defense of his. He sacrifices his own emotional safety, where she's concerned, so that she can have it herself. And she does use his personal, private knowledge to try to get what she wants from him in "Jackie Bags Hyde" (3x08).
In "Moon Over Point Place" (2x26), Hyde goes to jail in Jackie's stead. A boatload of concrete, potentially existential consequences in that choice to protect Jackie from likely less harm. Her father's a powerful, influential attorney, and I have no doubt he would've gotten the charges dropped and expunged from her record. Hyde has no one who can or is willing to help him in such a way.
The above leads to "Reefer Madness" (3x01), where Hyde continues to protect Jackie by keeping the truth to himself, despite Red kicking him out of the house. Had Donna not interceded, Hyde would've been homeless. Eric wanted to intercede before then, but Hyde rejected Eric's plan to protect him. No point in Forman getting in trouble, too, Hyde says.
Later in the episode, once Red learns the pot was Jackie's, Eric follows through on his plan anyway. He admits to smoking pot, too. The consequences for Hyde and Eric "trying" pot again, though, are far different in scale.
Red tells Hyde that if he ever finds that Hyde has pot / is smoking pot, he'll be kicked out of the house. That's the sword of Damocles dangling above Hyde's head. His safety isn't assured. Red has indirectly told him that Hyde isn't quite family. Living with that underlying fear and lack of unconditional love takes a huge emotional toll
Erc does not get that same threat. His safety and family security isn't in question.
Despite Red telling Hyde in "Hyde's Birthday" (4x23) that Hyde can stay in the Formans' home as long as he likes; no time limit, "Misty Mountain Hop" (5x12) demonstrates that this assurance is conditional. It also reaffirms that Hyde's not-quite family to Red. Red spots Kelso's bag of pot in Hyde's hands and kicks Hyde out of the house -- until Jackie steps in and protects Hyde's safety and future as he protected hers in "Moon Over Point Place".
Red is on the verge of crying when he tells Hyde he's "out of the house," but he makes the proclamation through his pain. Hyde isn't his child. Eric abd Laurie are. Kitty doesn't make that distinction. Red does; even if it's a small distinction, it's significant enough for him to exile Hyde.
Easier to choose compassion when one's life isn't at risk -- or feels at risk. Eric has enough experience confronting his father during S1-S4 to know his life won't be in danger. Yes, Red and Kitty both conspire to coerce Eric to end or delay his engagement to Donna. The worst is when Kitty sabotages his chance at getting a bank job to help pay for college. But Red and Kitty want Eric to go to college; that's ultimately why the engagement scares them. They're afraid Eric will forget about higher education if he and Donna get married as teens.
That storyline has a lot of holes in it, which is beyond the scope of this lengthy meta.
Choosing compassion when it means sacrificing money to pay for food, going to jail, being homeless is a lot tougher. This is why I say Hyde is more protective of others than Eric. He's consistently willing to negate his own wishes, needs, and safety to help people. And he consistently does so throughout the series, beginning in "Prom Night" (1x19).
Eric grows up in a stable family environment with parents who protect him, provide for him, love him.
Hyde grows up in a home with two alcoholic parents, an emotionally and physically abusive mother, a father who abandoned him at nine-year-old, a mother who leaves him alone regularly for days on end until she leaves for good when he's seventeen. Hyde is exposed to drugs, booze, gambling, and his mother's myriad lovers when he's a child. His cousins and uncles all ended up in prison, menial dead-end jobs, or dead.
He doesn't grow up loved by his parents. Yet he loves, feels compassion, and is driven to prevent others from suffering as he has even if it means his own suffering. This direction shows his immense resilience and strength of character. He's flawed like all people, but he could've continued the abusive cycle of the parents who raised him, and he chose differently.
How do you think Hyde would be during Jackie’s pregnancy and childbirth? How involved? Any headcanons?
Depends on where (and when) they are in life. Let's say the pregnancy was planned.
He'd be quite nervous about screwing up for Jackie or their kid. Kitty, Red, W.B., and any male friends who'd been through this experience before him (Kelso only if he and Brooke had a child or children after Betsy) would help and support him.
Hyde might become far more involved than anyone but Eric or Jackie expected (out of Hyde's friends). It's similar to Hyde in "The Good Son (1x25). He becomes very responsible once he moves into the Formans' house. He does chores more than willingly but, seemingly, happily. A far cry from the claims of him being "lazy, just like [his] father]" by Edna.
Ultimately, he'd be very attentive and present. Dealing with Jackie's fluctuating hormones would be a struggle at first because he won't be able to do anything right (through no fault of his own; hormones can be a-holes). He'd learn quickly that gentle pushback will have a chance of working far better than a firm boundary-setting.
Jackie would definitely have an epidural. So, if done correctly, she wouldn't be in excruciating pain during childbirth. Hopefully she wouldn't need a C-section. Regardless, Hyde would be all about what Jackie needs and supporting her. He'd want her and their baby to be safe.
Do you think Hyde or Eric is more protective over all?
Protective toward other people: Hyde. He doesn't distinguish between friend or stranger, vulnerable antagonist or vulnerable father (Bud) who betrayed him but needs help paying the rent.
Protective of Himself: Hyde again -- because of the above.
Eric's empathy is more selective, but he is a compassionate person. He has his defenses, but he's significantly more open than Hyde.
When they dated, do you think Hyde ever had pictures of him and Jackie around, maybe in his dresser drawers or his wallet or something like that?
We know from "I Can See for Miles" (6x11) that Jackie puts a framed picture of herself on Hyde's dresser. He doesn't remove it.
Whether actively (i.e. by his own hand) or passively (i.e. through Jackie's actions, he has pictures of her around. He's not going to toss them when he discovers them in places he didn't expect. He might change their location, but he'd keep them.
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I know the rumors of WV demanding Fez end up with one of the main girls for the final season but he also did an interview in 2021 saying he was shocked by them getting together and criticized it as the show clearly running out of ideas. Do you think he was just trying to save face because Fez and Jackie were received so poorly, universally so?
The only person who truly know are him, friends he might've told, fellow castmates, the people he negotiated his S8 contract with, the S8 showrunners, other producers, and the S8 writers.
But seeing that contract he signed would reveal the truth without a doubt. I don't think the U.S. Freedom of Information Act has a clause that would allow anyone gain access to it. 😄 And maybe that specific part would be redacted.
None of us "plebians" know the actual truth. I certainly don't. I have information that was revealed (leaked?) during the contract negotiation process. Several people verified it, but people is vague. I choose to believe the information (rumor might be more honest) for a few reasons, one being that WV was the longest holdout by a significant margin (although it's all relative).
Another, he didn't want to be typecast as a Fezian character post-T7S, which is evident in the significant change to S8!Fez. The characters tranforms into a womanizing playboy who had no trouble attracting women to sleep with him -- the polar opposite of Fez from S1-S7. This new characterization matches WV characterization of himself during a Howard Stern interview that took place relatively close after T7S ended
What follows is purely speculative: perhaps revisionist history is at play, consciously or otherwise.