Interview with Prof. Jean-Baptist Joly, founder and former director of Akademie Schloss Solitude (GER)
- in which we explore the connections between talent, skill and personality/identity and he role that institutions play in the formation of artists. The interview bellow is a transcription of a talk held on Zoom. It was kept in its original format to preserve the rhythm of speaking/thinking.
JBJ Yes, I can say a few things as a kind of introduction. I very much like the questions you put about the construction you had to build when you found an institution dedicated to artists, between things that are very difficult to catch, like, as you say, “identity”, “skills”, “aptitudes” or even “talent”, and a sustainable institution that should be somehow successful. It means finding good people or good artists and working with them in optimal conditions. My first question was really about: how can I do this if I don’t think that I can measure or find a system to measure any kind of quality of how good the skills of the artist are or how bad or how talented he/she is or not? And my point of view was not about the personalities of artists. I would say personality rather than identity. I think that identity is a dangerous word… somehow you always add to identity words like “social”, which is how people think that they belong to a cultural group or “national”, believing that you are only defined through a national community. I was afraid of this, and I tried to come back to questions like: how do we recognise nowadays (a question of the late eighties/early nineties), how do we recognise qualities in a piece of art, which means in the product of the activities of an artist, talented or not talented, how do we recognise quality, or a potential? And all those elements are impossible to qualify. But somehow it is possible to trust people who have an expertise about what is happening in the field of art, because they know the field, because they know artists, because they have considerable experience and are never sure that the expertise is definitely the right one, or definitely positive. Combining those elements of expertise, knowledge of the artistic scene, knowledge of decisions taken by institutions, museums, Kunstverein or such like, you could find a way to agree that, yes, someone is a good artist, and it would be worth giving her a fellowship, for example in Solitude. My point of departure was not about entering into psychology or cognitive sciences, but about obtaining good results with something we can’t qualify. In mathematics you can have an equation for which you use imaginary numbers, but you can’t know how to define them; however, at the end they disappear and you have the results. This is somehow the way how I tried to think about it. I do not know if it is clear for you… my idea was to recreate the moment when somebody says to an artist: I recognise the quality of your work and I think that I have an idea about something that would develop you further. So, when we look about history of art, we always know the names of the very famous artists who made mankind better or who gave an different understanding or a new view on things, but we always forget the go-betweens, the people in-between who were somehow giving the right information at the right moment, pushing with the contact, helping, supporting. They might be art critics, artists or anonymous people. Somehow it was the role in which I saw myself. I used art history as a tool or a given experience that would inspire me to establish a new system in the art world. 30 years ago, I was always using the same example of somebody like Brancusi, the Romanian sculptor, who is one of the most important artists of modern art, transforming the notion of sculpture after Rodin. When you look at his biography you have at a certain moment someone who is pushing him, giving him information. Somebody told him to go to Bucharest, then to Paris, and see what Rodin was doing there. It is exactly like it might, probably, have happened to you, Ana, when you applied for Solitude! Someone told you: Ah, I think that it fits for you – you should apply for this programme!
AM Yes, exactly, that was the reason (laugh)!
JBJ And for me this is exactly what people call nowadays a meme: you are a carrier of information. You are not the subject – the meme is the subject that is carried by your mind; those memes that are moving from one head to the next, from the person who knows to the person who should take the right decision following this information. The meme is the subject that is leading you to apply, and when you enter into the game of application, you are confronted with the selection system, with those experts taking decisions about who will have the fellowship and who won’t. This was quite daring for that time to impose single decisions by single persons for a jury. Because in cultural institutions in the twentieth century compromise is almost always the solution, but it doesn’t give only good results. I wanted to have clear decisions taken by identified individuals with a jury chair, (man or woman, we had both in the 30 years) looking precisely at the personalities of the jurors, making their own opinion about the personality of the selected artists. I trusted this system because I trusted the people who were in charge: the jurors would not do this for taking advantage of it – they would somehow step back from their own questions or interests, because they had a clear understanding of their responsibility and trusted the institution. As you see, the first step is finding a person that corresponds to this expertise, with the knowledge and the right behaviour, and then trusting this person. In your questions you do not mention trust, which is for me the key word of the construction of Solitude: I trust you and now you take decisions, choose jurors in all the disciplines of Solitude. In 30 years the number of disciplines increased; we added sciences, economy and so on. And when the jury chair made decisions about the jurors I spoke with every juror, and said again I trust you, you will be alone to take decisions, you will be responsible for your decisions and we will follow them all. Next step: when the selected artists arrive at Solitude you tell them (again!) I trust you, and we will follow you with your ideas within our limits (budget, legality etc.). When you look at this system, it is expertise first, then trust and trust again. When I look at the results, I do not know what talent is, but I know that with this system we have promoted something like 1,500 artists and I would say they might be considered, almost all of them, as serious artists. This would be my answer to the first part of your question – let’s now speak about to what extent talents or skills can be taught or acquired. In a place like Solitude you find artists with their primary education behind them. For this reason we did not have to deal with the question of teaching and acquiring the basic knowledge and skills for being an artist, but I am sure that it can be taught: basic skills like drawing (the best way to mark down your thoughts) can be taught. Drawing can be taught to a certain extent, but self-taught activities and self-education are even more important. What you learn as an artist is to deal with yourself: how you look at the product of your work, how you look at yourself being an artist. The French writer Gustave Flaubert said of himself that he was not talented at all, (je n’ai aucun talent d’écrivain), but he was his most critical reader, corrected mistakes and read and reread his texts, and was merciless to himself. For me this critical way of looking at the self is the thing that can hardly be taught; it is in yourself or it isn’t. A young artist that is so promising might be later disappointing, not because of a lack of skills or talent, but because of not having the right way to look at her or himself.
AM Because I also felt that, I think that my last question is also about the fact that we have so much time to ourselves and yet we have no expectations that somehow also focus on ourselves. And then you have to think about yourself, and you have to organise your ideas to allow a lot of time for yourself, for reflection. I also felt that it was important. But something that also happened a lot at Solitude was that there was a lot of mutation and share with artists. So, there were a lot of collaborations, and some artists also had time to think about their work; there were some artists that decided not to develop a project, but rather opted to think about their work, and in the end they decided to somehow shift their practice somewhat. So, for instance, the case of Xinjun [Zhang] is an artist that decided to spend some time working with the projects of other artists that also tried to experiment working in different forms as well. I think that, in this way, he did not change his identity nor his personality, as you say, but I think that somehow it allows him, allowed him, to work in a different way and to discover new things about himself.
JBJ So, should we speak now about collaboration or rather about the notion of time? Which do you prefer…?
AM As you prefer…(laugh)!
JBJ Okay, so, let’s follow your lines: the second question deals with collaboration “in a time when so many artists work collaboratively for economical, artistic and deontological reasons”. What do you mean by deontological?
AM Yes, because I think that a lot of artists also feel that it is more sustainable to work with other people, it is also a gesture towards society, because you are sharing your ideas and your resources, and you somehow dedicate your time, not your representation about yourself, but to work with other people. I think that this current crisis, the corona crisis, brought a lot of these issues for some artists. I’ve already heard of some colleagues who decided that they don’t feel like working anymore because they feel that art is not useful or that it is very difficult for them to overcome this. So, that is what I mean by deontological – that it is the perspective that is more sustainable in this sense.
JBJ When I read this sentence I am missing the enthusiasm and the fact that people working on the same project are convinced that it is important to do this because they are sharing the same conviction. For me this is more important than economic, artistic or deontological reasons. They are convinced that this is a necessary step to be done. For example, if you are missing something in your own skills, you have to work together with somebody else. I would say it is a shared notion of necessity of working on a project that brings people together. Regarding this notion of talent, skill can be enhanced through a shared system. Let’s take an example outside of art: you probably remember that France was world champion in football in 1998 with a team built around a great player, Zinedine Zidane. This team really produced its own qualities from the presence of two or three extremely well-gifted people who brought the rest of the team to their level of perfection. If you have two or three people who are extraordinarily, let’s say, skilled, then they will take everybody with them to this level. Same in 2016 when Portugal won the European football cup with a team around Cristiano Ronaldo.
AM Yes, I remember when they won, but I must say that I do not understand very much about football, but I remember that episode when Portugal won – I saw the game, but I did not focus on that because I do not really usually watch games, so I was not aware of that parity.
JBJ And, for me, what was important in the organisation of the work in Solitude, about this notion of shared activities, was the fact that we should organise a system, a biotope, in which people could meet without having the pressure of a possible intention of the institution on their back. The whole system about the internal presentations in the academy at that time was really around people being in the same room, or monthly dinners, where people have the opportunity of meeting each other. They might be interested in each other, from the personal rather than from the artistic perspective, so they could enter into a game of mutual curiosity. Those internal presentations were organised in such a way that each of the fellows was on certain days a pupil; on other days a teacher. This exchange at an equal level, being teacher and being taught, being a pupil and being the one who explains, this was for me the backbone of a continuous education system working outside of the hierarchical relationship between the teacher and the pupil. Everybody is playing the role one after the other. This also explains the way how the artists in Solitude could identify with other artists. How they could become friends. It was the intention of the institution to put them together, but it happened, but we tried to make it not too apparent.
JBJ This is the reason why we let the fellows themselves organise the internal presentations, not the staff. If people from the staff attended those presentations, they did it as individuals, as private persons, not as staff members.
AM It is true no one would comment, make comments or questions about the work. It was among the fellows. It was a parity. I remember that.
JBJ Exactly, yes. Then you ask about identity and talent. So, I told you the word identity, for me, is quite dangerous and I prefer to speak about personality. When I was a kid I had recurrent fights with my mother who was so proud of the history of her family, and who was always explaining that we are very talented people and that it was innate, that it came from the genetic quality we had inherited and so forth. So, she really thought this. And she still thinks like this because she is still alive. On the other hand, I always answered that what we are and think is all acquired; it has nothing to do with being innate. We were both wrong because the notion of personality is the result of a mix of biological and environmental factors that are totally intertwined. It is not possible to make any differentiation between what is innate and what is acquired. So, I think that when you have a strong personality or a personality that is remarkable in front of you, personality and talent are related, but I do not know how to identify talent. I see that some people are very well skilled because they learnt to draw or to sculpt or to write, but I think that, indeed, it is an integral part of the personality, especially of the personality of an artist, for which this expression is not something different – it is an integral part of daily life. An artist doesn’t make any difference between “Am I working or am I private”? “Am I retired or am I still active?” The life of an artist is probably a unity with a continuity between working, thinking or hanging around. When you think about what an artist has to accept in his or her own life for being an artist, what he/she has to give up, like a secure income, for example, a family, or getting children, then you understand how high the price to pay is. This is the reason why I admire them, because I know what is at stake when you decide to be an artist, and this is also where my respect for artists is coming from. In Solitude we tried to follow these principles with the staff in our daily life with artists.
AM It is true, it is a very good point because I think that eventually the most truthful… way of understanding an artist or identifying being an artist is this interconnectivity, so, you are an artist full time and it is an extension of everything that you do.
JBJ It is like entering into religion or engaging yourself as an activist. You Have to give up so many things, and it is the same for an artist.
AM It is true. There is no other way, basically. Either you are, in this sense, or..
AM It is true. It is a very good definition, actually. I also thought that it was very interesting when you spoke in the beginning about this sort of connector or mentor, which is people who can…who have expertise or knowledge, and who can identify people who are skilled or talented in specific areas, because I think that it also connects with education. Like when you go to school, or sometimes not only to school, but there are people that I would say…I always have this notion that there are specific people who I met in my life that changed my life because they either gave me an opportunity, they recognised something, but something is not, something is not clear that you are already showing a certain skill, but they think that you could maybe do this or you could do that, and so they challenge you. That is a very blurry part and that is very beautiful – when actually you teach them that you can recognise some skills that are not yet revealed in someone and you can help them to develop these skills. It is a very beautiful part of teaching. And I also think that, I did not, I never think about this, but it is true, that the problem with jurors is that when it is a mixed jury, it is a negotiation. When it is a single decision, it is a bigger responsibility, but it is also the outcome of a process, a thinking process, so I think that it is more integral, whole, the process. It is true.
JBJ Then you have this wonderful question about the artists who are given time. There are different aspects in this question. One of the aspects is that artists joining a residency programme are professionals who know better than you what their needs are made of. If you commit them to things that are outside of their needs or interest, it is not worth it to be in this place and to be financially supported. I remember very well when we hosted the first artists, in July 1990. When the first group arrived I told them (as I have done in all the years after!): “The time you will spend in Solitude belongs to you and not to the institution”. I was sitting at my desk, waiting for the first artist who would knock at my door and tell me that she or he had an idea for a project, and we could start something that would be realised there. The first one came after just three days and it never stopped until I left the house, 30 years later. It never stopped, it was an ongoing process! After the first one had come other people said – Ah, I could imagine myself doing that, then the machine was working on its own. If you consider the fellowship submitted by some obligation, you create a contractual relationship – and I wanted to avoid this. If you are given time, and if I wait for you to come and say what you want to do, I can say yes, and it is not a contractual relationship like if I had given you a contract with what I expect from you. I did not say I expect something, but indeed something was expected. Less in terms of a product of art, less in terms of an activity or an event, but in terms of being actively part of a network. I wanted artists to recognise the value of being part of the Solitude network because I knew that this network would somehow be the way to make your future better after the time in Solitude. You, Ana, told me that you met former Solitude fellows when you were in New York, that you had a contact in Stockholm and so on. This is a part of the support that you got from the Academy: Being part of a network and being in touch with people you met there. At the beginning some artists were suspicious and asked us about the hidden agenda behind the support they got from the Akademie. What are you expecting from us, the artists? What is it? Will we be, at some point, instrumentalised by a government or an institution? Do we have to be a decorative backstage for the Prime Minister? Or will the politicians justify bad decisions by the fact that we are here, that we are the good side? It was very difficult for me to express what we were expecting, and indeed it took two or three years until we understood what it was. Around 1993 we used the term ‘network’ just after it became usual, naming exactly what we were doing. After a couple of years this network would make the institution influential worldwide, which is indeed what happened. Thinking in terms of a balanced exchange between what you give and what you receive is essential in this relationship. This is a point I underestimated at the beginning of Solitude, and I was wrong. Then you say: “In my view the artists are the makers of their lives and works. Do you think that this model, as I perceive it, enhances the definition of the individual and in this manner of their artistic career, meaning if we have to sort out ourselves, surely, we can do the rest?” If you…?
AM Yes, yes, if we, the artists.
JBJ I never thought that way. I think that I had rather, somehow, a kind of Protestant (although I was not educated as a Protestant) point of view about loneliness and about the responsibility you carry for yourself. If you put people in a situation where the time belongs to you and where you decide what you want to do, good artists would know how to deal with this, and bad artists would have difficulties with this. Somehow you would see clearly which artist is and isn’t worth it. But the question you posed is a question for you, for an artist looking at the institution from outside; it is not the question of the institution. It is another point of view.
JBJ I think that it is very important that you see the position of the artists in the Academy is not the same as the position of the team. We could do all this work in the Academy because we are the non-artists, and our job is to understand artists. So we can be very close to them, we can help them, but we are not artists, and this is the condition under which the institution works because we know that we there is a clear difference between the two sides. Many artists’ residencies are run by artists offering another relationship to their guests, another kind of identification with the house, the art works, the artists. In not-so-well-organised residencies run by artists this is a kind of excuse: “We are artists too, you know, so you can’t demand so much from us, from our residency centre.” In Solitude we were clearly not artists, and we were not seeing ourselves as artists. When I was talking to artists about their work, it was always from the outside.
AM Yes, it is true. It is important.
[] means text that was not originally in the recording and was added to facilitate the understanding of the idea.
This interview is a direct transcription of a talk recorded on Zoom and has not been edited, except minimal proofreading corrections for grammar and spelling issues. For this reason, repetitions and mistakes may naturally occur.
Credits - Ana Mendes, Drawing Series IV, durational performance, 3 m x 2.5 m, 2019 (c) Ana Mendes