___ , hello, mae govannen. This is a nonhuman blog run by a physical nonhuman.
- Apocrypha : pronounced “ uh-pok-ruh-fuh “ : writings not considered genuine
General About
I collect bones, plants, teacups, dolls, and books. Chronically ill, physically disabled and online way too much. White + TME. I can be terse and reserved, but I am always happy to make friends once you get past my “academic” tone. Feel free to ask for reading recommendations.
Nonhumanity
I call myself a shapeshifter. I am not very concerned with more particular labels than that but I do consider myself part of the therian, otherkin and physically nonhuman communities. For fun, here are some of our common forms.
My nonhumanity is physical, spiritual and connected to my illnesses. I experience nonhumanity viscerally and on occasion have physical shifts. If discussions of physical shifting or other physical nonhuman experiences is distressing or harmful for you to see, please block this account and our cetacean side account @pseudorca-crassidens.
BYF
I don’t have a DNI but I have opinions and behaviors you might not like. If you feel yourself becoming irate or uncomfortable because of any of the below, please block me and we can both move on in peace.
I sometimes get into community discourse. You can block my discourse tag specifically if you’d rather not see it.
I believe no one owes you double bookkeeping.
I am liable to discuss physical shifting and other topics some might consider “unreality.” These posts will likely not be tagged as such.
I believe P-shifters/physical shifters deserve a place in nonhuman communities without being labeled as cultists or subjected to demands for proof. No one in this community can prove we’re nonhuman in any way.
I will sometimes repost images of taxidermy or other dead animals that likewise will probably not be tagged.
I don’t care about shipcourse and won’t engage in it.
I'm (we're) plural and not interested in origin labels or system discourse. All systems/forms of plurality are welcome on this blog though we do not tend to discuss such subject matter ourselves.
Trans women are not separatists, and talking about transmisogyny does not make them cops. You should listen to what transfeminists are saying instead of having a knee jerk reaction because you feel threatened. Transandrophobia is not real in the sense that it is not a unique axis of oppression, not that trans men and transmascs are not oppressed. The word that exists to describe the oppression is transphobia.
I’m a communist and I’m for real about it. We will not “love and light” our way out of capitalism. Get serious. Read Marx and Lenin.
Tags
#Mor yaps - like literally every text post I make
#Mor’s art - the occasional art post
#Taxideerscourse - nonhuman discourse tag for your blocking pleasure
#Mor writes - essays or otherwise more "serious" writings
#Mor talks books - rambles about books and writing
pfp - Head of a Deer by Diego RodrĂguez de Silva y Velázquez
banner one - The Fall of Numenor by Alan Lee
banner two - Kilauea Crater' by Jules Tavernier
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Read this post recently and had some thoughts about it, but OP wasn't a fan of keeping my comments up, so. here we go! This was certainly an interesting read, even if it wasn't something I agreed with in the end.
My responses will get cleaned up and thrown in the reblogs for ease of reading. this was a good thought experiment- and I even enjoyed the discussion with OP and a few of the other folks I ended up chatting with too. Too bad im blocked to high heaven now but hey! life goes on xD
I'd love to continue the discussion in the comments if any of yall wanna keep it going too- discussing the dangers of the online community and ways to prevent those dangers is right up my alley. I remember the early days of the online wild west and wanna prevent that for as many young/new/vulnerable nonhumans as I can. Please don't harass or attack OP either, they've just got their own framework of beleifs and are simply expressing it on their own blog.
marking 'beleif' as the problem universally while ignoring the content, affect, and context of those beleifs is just a far too flat take on something as huge and complicated as the concept of beleif. saying you do not have any, or have reduced beleifs because of your trauma is fine- but that isnt the state of a well-adjusted person. having absolutely no beleifs prevents you from being wrong, sure. but it also prevents you from being an individual with a functioning analytical brain. beleifs arent always all-or-nothing either. most beleifs sit comfortably in the 'well, this is probably true!' range until theyre inevitably corrected by new information. beleifs, culture, and the objective+subjective truths we learn about the world as we grow and change is a cornerstone of human development, the basis of learning. being wrong is part of being right, eventually- and removing the ability to beleive (not blindly, but reasonably + with evidence) or talk about our beleifs as core parts of who we are strips us of a huge chunk of the human experience. de-centralizing *beleifs* in favour of *experience* doesnt actually fix the problem either, because your experiences are also fully subjective. if you interpret your mental shifts as nonhuman, at all, you're really not that much different than someone who thinks they can physically change. You've got the same amount of proof as they do: which is Zilch.
Besides- how is it that you able to interpret your own nonhumanity with any level of accuracy, while the rest of us stupid schulbs are apparently just coasting by on 'well i think so, so it must be true!' You clearly beleive that on some level youre a telepathic pheonix-wolf. how is that *not* in the realm of subjective truth? What is more emperical/objective about being a phoenix on a a mental level, than being a dog on a spiritual one? genuinely? id love to know where that line gets drawn and why and where some therians are emperically sound and others aren't. as far as I knew, all we actually have is our own interpretations/beleifs/experiences/cultures. I genuinely would love to know what makes OP so sure that their 'mental shifts' to a more quiet, pictures-only, reducded-beleif thought process is "emperical" therianthropy and evidence of their wolfishness, and not just a trauma response from being raised in a situation where having ones own beleifs was punished. Its not up to me to decide that, but it does go to show the hypocrisy on display.
From the outside, I genuinely cannot tell why they seem to think their therianthopy lives in the realm of emperisicm and almost everyone elses' is just the product of confirmation bias.
i have also since been blocked. despite being relatively constructive throughout and providing sources that would strengthen their argument. i think to argue that you are trying to prevent a cult from forming in the community is disingenuous when you also block all critique. that’s an echo chamber you’re building.
i think for baumarius to also state it was “actually just me sharing my personal philosophy” is untrue when, in a response to aestherians they stated they went in an changed the coined definition of xenogender to their own on a fandom wiki, then a few breaths later state they were not "well versed" with the trans community. fandom wiki is not the end all be all of information of course, and the definition has since been changed back to the original, but i think my point still stands.
easy way to make yourself look more reputable: block all dissenting voices.
Firstly, thank you for posting the hidden replies faerie, I had wanted to know what was said.
I was much harsher in my rebuke of baumarius than others were. I honestly flip-flop on whether it was warrented or productive, though given others attempts to be more productive it seems it would not have mattered and I do not think I was incorrect or withdraw in anything I said.
I though agree with hearthwolf that the insistance about it being personal philosophy seems more of a shield to criticism rather than a genuine view. I have had posts misinterpreted in wildly different directions by others so I can sympathise if that is what occured. Even then though I struggle to believe that is the actual case. It was presented as a serious arguement, titled in a way that is associated to serious work "On [subjectmatter]", suggesting that this is a responsability to each other and necessary to prevent cult-behaviour within the community, and legitimising it through interaction with outside researchers and attempting to get a grant to study this. Even if it is a personal philosophy that does not make it immune from criticism, though if it were not for the attempts to legitimise or publish such work I imagine myself and others would have been much less likely to engage with it - at least for myself, I would have let it by.
Their response to criticism though was very poor, even to those who offerred much gentler feedback. They presented it in a very condescending way and would often reply to people suggesting they simply had not read it well enough. They clearly had no understanding of the community or any of the critiques being offerred (as is apparent by comments since). It was honestly to the point given their behaviour and that they would at points act and speak like "sjw pwned by logic and facts triggered" from the 2010s, that I was wondering if this was an attempt at Sokol-Hoaxing us (and part of why I stopped interacting, though I did continue to follow it). Honestly I still do not know; if they are being earnest and we were not all taken for a ride, clearly they are in a significant amount of pain from their experience with TG and everything they write appears filtered through that experience and limited experience with broader community, that I do hope they can heal from that at least. And if that is indeed the case, then my rebuke was, in hindsight, unproductively harsh.
I got blocked too. Posting my replies here because I don’t want the accusations of “abusive ad hominem attacks” on my part to go uncontested on the record.
Reply 1:
Text:
All due respect, I don’t think you should be putting sanism and Eurocentric in scare quotes in your response to Kala if you don’t want to imply that those concepts don’t exist/are nonsensical. Also, would you be willing to share info regarding the researcher you spoke to—or at least what it was about nonhumans they were researching? Feel free to DM me if you’re more comfortable with that
I never received a DM about the research or reply of any kind.
Reply 2:
Text:
Re: your latest addition. Sorry, but did you not invite feedback? You literally call it a “proposal.” Proposals receive feedback, and of (sic) that feedback is going to be impassioned. This is not, fundamentally, an academic space, so not everyone is going to approach your proposal with academic neutrality. Perhaps that’s not what you anticipated or wanted, and I can understand how the amount of responses you received might be overwhelming, but I would encourage you to evaluate the actual content of some the replies you received instead of dismissing them out of hand. I don’t think you intend to come off as defensive, but rejecting the sanist and Eurocentric critiques without actually contending with what was being said does come across that way.
Additionally, I’m at a loss as to how my mentioning that the quotes around sanism and eurocentrism constitutes a bad look (that I thought based on my wording was clear you did not intend to portray!) is a straw man (you literally put the words in quotes and I just said the implications were unsavory) and an abusive ad hominem attack (I did not say anything about you or insult you). Unless there is someone else who pointed out the quotations that I’m not seeing because of the removed replies, then ofc disregard this point.
I don’t know how much more I have to say about the subject (besides just don’t post things you aren’t ready for criticism on, I guess). I had also made a reblog response that also went unanswered. I’m not really sure why both my reblog and reply were ignored when it seems almost everyone else was responded to but oh well, I’ll never know.
If you saw the earlier version of this post, no you didn’t. Did you know you can still see your own replies on a post after you’ve been blocked? I didn’t.
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Okay jfc I don’t want to be unsympathetic to anyone’s emotional or mental state but if you are not in a place to receive feedback at all on something DONT POST IT. For your own sake just don’t bother. Tuck it away until you can handle pushback. Especially do not ask for feedback pls. Like why do that to yourself.
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On Therianthropy, Otherkin, Zoesthesia, and the Responsibility We Have To Each Other
This post might make your brain hurt, so take your time with it. As someone who was raised in a cult, escaped, and was forced to deconstruct the origins of belief in order to stay sane and retrieve control over my life, this topic is very important to me. I also believe it is paramount to the integrity of our communities that you understand the material in this post. You may or may not agree and I don't necessarily posit that I am "correct" in my analysis; I don't really expect anything one way or the other, but I am curious what will come of it. If this community means something to you and you are willing to at least hear me out, read on.
Yesterday I met face-to-face with a researcher to discuss the "zoesthesia" term I proposed a few months ago as a potential precursor or stand-in for terms such as therianthropy and otherkin. They brought up a number of good points. It was a delight to hear the insight of someone both educated in psychology and external to the community, and about some of the future studies they're still formulating (I can't discuss that at this time).
It became clear that adoption of this term may be unlikely to aid many of the major social issues plaguing the community both here and abroad. Although it sounds like "synesthesia" - a phenomenon rarely, if ever, targeted by bad actors, zoesthesia may still be a hot topic for those who take offense to the non-conforming simply because of its nature. They did find it interesting that zoesthesia prioritizes experience over identity. Whether zoesthesia is actually adopted or not, I have no preference.
What I proposed during that meeting was a slightly more refined version of the previously proposed definition, which does not necessarily try to include every form of alterhumanity, some forms of which I've learned may be entirely unrelated. After more discussion and thought, I refined the idea further.
For a moment, as a thought experiment, I want to ask that you forget every term you know relating to this community and consider what I arrived upon:
Zoesthesia
Zoesthesia ('zo-esthesia') is the experience of sensations, perceptions, and behaviors subjectively interpreted as belonging to something incongruent to one's own biology. Interpretations and identities arising from these experiences are personal and diverse; zoesthesia can be present without interpretation, especially at early ages, but is often experienced as an embodied identity.
Individuals who experience zoesthesia have a wide spectrum of experiences, often leading to unique endeavors and forms of expression in social, artistic, literary, and professional contexts.
The experience of zoesthesia involves:
Experiences (e.g. sensations, perceptions, memories, behaviors, desires, social cues, states of consciousness, and/or involuntary urges) that are often subjectively interpreted as belonging to something other than one's own biological species,
Experiences that may vary in form and intensity, remain at a stable baseline, or become triggered by internal or external stimuli,
2. And may include any number of the following:
An identity or overarching sensation that embodies these experiences,
An understanding that one still has a human body,
Dysphoria regarding the incongruence between one's physical body and perceived embodied experience,
Dreams or trance-like states that are experienced through the lens of something incongruent to one's biology,
A strengthening or increased frequency of experiences after one becomes conscious of them,
And/or a personal interpretation of these experiences as non-human through psychological or spiritual means.
"Zoesthesia" is derived from "zoe" and "aisthesis" - Greek, literally "life perception" or "animal perception."
So why do I propose this?
Obviously, this could technically be considered as a refined definition of therianthropy and/or otherkin. It does not deny the existence of spiritual experience or belief, but in order for this to be a responsible definition informed by empiricism, it must not assert that anything we feel (whether interpreted as psychological or spiritual) is "real." This is not to say that it isn't. I find that it is much more constructive to completely avoid language that asserts beliefs as such because it is impossible to measure how "real" something is. Asserting a belief as true may demand that others believe you, which may be disrespectful and disingenuous.
If I'd like you to have a clear picture of why this proposal exists so that we can have constructive discussions, I must assume that you're entirely unfamiliar with my worldview and deconstruct its basis for you. Before we continue, I would like you to consider the following oft-misunderstood terms and thought experiments and how I use them. The way I discuss zoesthesia and the rest of what I'll say in this post hinges specifically on my understanding of these ideas. Take a breather if you need it - it's heavy.
If you would like to skip this, go to the "Current Definitions" section.
1 . Empiricism
In philosophy, empiricism is the view that all knowledge and belief is derived from firsthand experience, e.g. through the senses. This philosophy is the basis for the scientific method and the following thought experiment:
Consider that you may have already taken for granted the belief that a real person wrote this post and not just a collection of subatomic particles resembling a person. I believe it to be a fact that I wrote this because doing so is now within my memory and I believe that my memories were not placed there last Thursday. I might tell you that this is a "fact," but then you have to believe that I am a reasonably trustworthy person and that a "reasonably trustworthy person" is an inherently "real" fixture in your reality.
You also may believe or take for granted that the conversion of the letters you're reading on your device into concepts in your consciousness isn't just zeroes and ones but a complex process derived from quantum mechanics, psychology, or the amorphous idea of "the soul" that none of us can put a definitive finger on.
These beliefs are not empirically verifiable or unverifiable because we cannot physically sense the world on this scale (as far as is generally understood). Even if you use tools to measure the world on that scale, you then have to believe in the accuracy of your tools.
With this in mind, you may need to be wary of what you assert as "truth." The only thing you may truly be able to know without the need for reason is what you are currently feeling and thinking in this ever-present moment. Everything else in your head that you "know" (e.g. your memories) is made up with varying measures of belief. It is entirely possible that the past may not exist. Attempting to make judgements on that information can result in some pretty funky paradoxes, but there are ways to talk about experience without invoking belief. This is why I have structured the refined definition of zoesthesia to emphasize interpretation.
This thought experiment is a robust methodology known as methodological solipsism. If you still don't believe that any of this is valid or useful because you believe in another kind of philosophy, religion, or dogma...can you see where this is going? I cannot emphasize how important it feels to be precise in the language that we use so that we might avoid creating and promoting dogma while just trying to discuss and share our experiences.
Growing up in religion we are often taught that belief is virtue and that you must believe in one way or another. After all, taking the stance of "not believing" something is the belief that something is not. It seems like a circular dilemma on the surface and cults will often try to manipulate that intuition. I've since found that the responsible thing to do is to simply observe the moment and decline to believe in the first place. There are plenty of beliefs you can function without. The state I get into when I'm feeling particularly mental-shifted is a state in which belief and language is largely reduced or implicit, my inner dialogue is non-existent, and if I do think it tends to be in pictures. If one can exist and thrive in such a state, why don't so many of us ever leave that monologue?
2. Spirit
Often thought of as a force, being, consciousness, or presence
For the purpose of sticking to the concept of empiricism and the previous thought experiment, I would suggest that a spirit is no different from any concept that you can interact with in your head that is based in something you have observed externally or internally. It may also include any actual object or being in the external world (some would call beliefs related to this animism or panpsychism).
It is not possible to verify the "being-ness" of any particular object or animal, whether it is conscious or just a bunch of atoms playing the part. Just watch Vsauce deconstruct a chair's existence. You are free to believe that it is more than that, but that will dive us into spirituality, dogma, and paradox. I see "spirit" and "object" as synonymous with "concept."
3. Spirituality
A preoccupation with or capacity for understanding moral, existential, or metaphysical questions without the dictation of dogma.
Whatever you've experienced through your senses is something that you have come to know, and in that sense "spiritual experience" is just another way to describe firsthand experience that falls perfectly under the umbrella of empiricism. If you have the firsthand experience of going into trance and entering [what you believe to be] the astral plane, that is still received through your senses and is a part of your conscious experience. Even your mind's eye could be considered a kind of sensation. Your experiences, no matter how you see or discuss them, are inherently valid because you experienced them.
"Valid" in this context simply means that you experienced what you experienced and we are giving you the benefit of the doubt because we can't see inside your consciousness. To say something is valid is not necessarily to make the impossible assertion that your interpretation of your experiences is based in "reality." Good researchers try their best to maintain this perspective to respect everyone they study. To claim that someone else's experience is invalid is a just another belief that no one can definitively assert as truth.
4. Dogma
In religion, dogma is typically referred to as a collection of deeply held beliefs often passed down through generations. Those beliefs can seem "spiritual" in that they may have once been based in someone's firsthand experience, but this quickly leads people into a trap.
It can also be thought of as the rules, laws, and rituals you believe in. We create new rules all the time as we gain new experiences. If you're open to new experiences, you may find that it is possible to break whatever rules you've previously prescribed to existence. No law can be empirically verified as universal or eternal except maybe entropy - until even that breaks down at the event horizon of a black hole, which typically breaks our understanding of the laws of physics.
Some rituals may be useful to you, especially if they help promote or maintain your well-being. Practicing something like Tai Chi every day is a ritual that can keep your mind and body healthy. Actually practicing it and believing that it helps you (because you have, in fact, found that it does in your own experience) is entirely empirical. Believing that it will make you super lucky and start seeing synchronicities everywhere would be superstitious. Superstition is often based in dogma too.
You create your own miniature personal dogma every moment you look to the past for guidance. Even firsthand/spiritual experience can transform into a kind of dogma the moment it becomes a variable for calculating future actions. In some cases this is necessary for your survival. It can also become overblown and lead to things like depression and anxiety, especially in the form of trauma and limiting beliefs. Trauma can become a form of dogma, too - if it changes the way you live and behave.
Finally, dogma is often the result of:
5. Heuristic Processing
To put it simply, heuristic processing means that your brain makes judgement calls based on limited information. You flop three dates in a row with potential partners you were interested in and your brain wants to jump to generalizations like "Maybe I'm just an unlovable person, I'm ugly, I'll always be lonely, etc." And then bam, 6 months down the line your life is agony and you've done nothing to actually improve your odds of connecting with somebody, reinforcing your confirmation bias (also what I would consider to be an element of dogma) that you're just not cut out for love. And so the downward spiral goes. It is so tempting to do this - heuristic processing is the primary mode of the brain, after all. Years of reinforcement only makes the resulting neural pathways stronger and harder to move on from. This is especially apparent with addictions like alcoholism, which literally alters the structure of the brain over time.
Everyone is guilty of this. It can useful because analyzing every single point of data would be absolutely debilitating, but it is a double-edged sword I believe you should be aware of. Look for it and you will find it everywhere.
These ideas, and perhaps relativism, are some of the pillars of my worldview and understanding of the thing we call reality. It's not an exhaustive list, but was wholly necessary for me to break things down this way so that I could purge myself of the dogma of the cult I was raised in. I'm not necessarily suggesting that you should subscribe to these ideas, but now you should be able to see where I'm coming from.
Now that these things are defined, I can get to the point!
The Problem
I'd like you to take a look at the following definitions and see if you can spot the problems:
If you don't see it, I'll explain in a moment. In response to the initial zoesthesia discussions, TG also published their own "Definitive Stance" in the forums, which suffers from the same problem. The definition above remains on the main site. This is the new one:
Wikipedia's page on "Therian subculture" (there isn't one for therianthropy itself) primarily focuses on identity, but at least mentions "the broader lived experience of therians":
Therianthropy's Fandom wiki page is much closer to emphasizing the experience, if a little term-heavy and requiring the use of "therian" in the main definition:
Pluralpedia's definition...
There are countless others, but I want to focus on the first two for the moment. Both definitions for therianthropy on TG take for granted the interpretation of one's relevant experiences as "non-human" or "animal." By omission, these definitions assert that we know for a fact that there are individuals out there who are having non-human animal experiences and aren't just delusional or whatever else. But the interpretation of these experiences as non-human is belief, not an empirically tested fact. It's dogma (see point #4 above).
Some of y'all are willing to let physicists and mathematicians concede that what we call reality is inherently mathematical in some way, and yet fail to realize that mathematical proofs can't be fabricated backwards by creating the solution first. Saying that "therianthropy is the internal experience of being a non-human animal" as TG maintains is the equivalent of creating a "true" statement and then forming a hypothesis that might make it seem true. At that point, you may as well be practicing Biblical numerology or quack science.
In the early years of the community, members came up with the generally accepted terms and definitions for their experiences long before we had any evidence for what was actually going on underneath the hood - as a stand-in for what we hoped we would know in the future. But they ossified until they became writ in stone. We still do not have evidence to say with certainty that we are experiencing actual non-human sensations or something entirely different.
Over years of certain members policing labels and experiences as if this were some kind of cult, there remains an ache for feelings of legitimacy in the community. Many feel like if they aren't "committed" enough to their identity, their experiences won't be seen as real and they won't get to be a part of the club. Based on most of the available definitions for therianthropy, identity is implied as a necessary component when identity arises from interpretation. Is it not plausible that one might experience what we might all consider a "mental shift" and think nothing of it or simply not be able to put a finger on what it was?
There are those who want to put forth the idea that certain sensations, behaviors, or lack thereof are concrete proof that one is or isn't a particular animal. This itches at the incredibly human fear of social exclusion, especially in kids just trying to make sense of themselves. These definitions inherently promote these attitudes by not emphasizing the fact that all of this is based on interpretation to begin with. This isn't an exact science and may never be. As much as one may desire for their experiences and identity to be perceived as legitimate by their peers, there is no empirical way to do this except to say that your experiences are valid because they're yours. Gatekeeping legitimacy turns the therian community into a kind of cult that encourages members to preen their experiences and limit their interpretations of them to a prescribed box.
This is not leading in a positive direction.
According to Therian Guide, we don't just have "therianthropy." We have suntherian, contherian, non-shifting therian, standard therian, polytherian, cladotherian, shifting, aura shifting, bi-location shifting, phantom shifting, dream shifting, astral shifting, and a whole slew of other terms. From an outside observer looking in, this makes it look like a cult. Point #1.1 in the definition of zoesthesia eliminates the need for this obtuseness entirely, reducing the need to use seemingly woo-woo terms like aura shifting, astral shifting, bi-location shifting, and more. I don't believe that these extra terms need to be publicized as part of an official definition, but instead as a historic note. Obviously I can't advocate for the outright removal of these terms and microlabels from the community's lexicon (this likely isn't even possible), but this all looks wildly disorganized.
Many of the other definitions on other sites (not all can be pictured here) emphasize either identity or a combination of experience and identity. Every site is different and some are better than others. Several have 5+ terms within the first couple paragraphs.
Zoesthesia's definition contains one novel term: zoesthesia.
Something I recently realized was that the younger alterhuman community is the only one I can think of that coins new terms every week to describe their own flavor of experiences. I feel that there must be some deeper commonalities that people are trying to get at. I believe that my proposal of zoesthesia may alleviate some of those efforts. If we could iron this out, it may allow us to focus more on what matters: sharing in our experiences and connecting with each other.
I also believe that potential authority figures such as Therian Guide, as well as general members of the community at large, have a responsibility to avoid the promotion of magical thinking. By not educating people about the fact that the "non-human animal experience" is an interpretation of one's experiences as "non-human" rather than an undeniable fact of existence clearly within the definition of therianthropy, magical thinking is encouraged. Anything and everything can become a cult when this responsibility is ignored. I bring this to everyone's attention out of concern more than anything. I was raised in a cult, which the new owner of TG herself rescued me from and helped me process. I can only hope that this responsibility is understood, for the sake of the integrity of the community.
I am requesting that this proposal be formally considered and debated amongst yourselves so that a decision can be made regarding how to proceed. I believe the threat of these communities becoming cult-like began long ago, and I think it is damaging the community as a whole. While many in the community may be more "spiritually minded" and think that means that the scientific method is irrelevant to their experiences, I think it behooves everyone to approach these topics with a dose of neutrality, curiosity, and empiricism.
Since drafting this post and sharing parts of it on TG, I've been told that I'm just "overly sensitive to cults" because of the horrible things I went through. I've been assured that their community is much healthier now because of the large monthly influx of new members. I've been told that empiricism is a form of gatekeeping and that therianthropy does not need to be seen as "valid" by science.
This attitude isn't strictly a TG problem, but we do have a problem.
I understand people's distrust of modern science and psychiatry. Yes, it moves slowly, its history has been riddled with injustice and corruption, and we have a dysfunctional medical and pharmaceutical industry that we don't want involved in potentially purging us of our experiences. I want it to be crystal clear that I do not condone corruption, injustice, or systemic racism. But empiricism isn't about gatekeeping at all. It's simply asking "What can we truly know based on our senses and available data?" If you assert that you know something that cannot be "known" without belief, you may be wishful thinking or jumping the gun in an attempt to drum up feelings of legimitacy. Everyone has a right to do this, but if you speak as an authority in a way that makes a held belief seem like fact, you aren't far from exhibiting cult-like behaviors.
Most of you have never physically stood in a room with 50 other people telling you that you're the one who's wrong because the status quo was more important for them to maintain. Where the illusions of the cult were more important to maintain.
I am wary of cults, but more importantly, I am highly perceptive of the concessions people make against rationality that often lead to a state of mutually reinforced delusion. No particular group is immune to this, even if you'd like to think of your own group as wiser than humans.
It goes deeper than that too. I have had to refine the way that I speak because I used to speak in very non-constructive ways, and it felt like people hated me for it. Because I "spoke my mind." Because I was "honest and direct." In truth, I was hasty and felt that backing up my hastily chosen words with more words was the best course of action. It never ended well and I didn't understand why. Now I do.
I could've simply crawled back into my ego and said, "They'll never understand me, I'm just a pariah." When I was younger, that is what I did.
Now I recognize that everyone is constantly creating dogma for themselves - often in the form of limiting beliefs. People say things like "I'm good for nothing" or "That's just how the world works." They give up their power and their capacity for rational thought simply because something happened a certain way a few times. Even if it's happened a thousand times, that's no excuse to close your eyes to what's before you. We have a responsibility to ourselves and each other not to shoot ourselves in the foot for no good reason.
I've actively tried to fight heuristic processing on and off for the past decade. For my whole life, a lot of folks have said, "Just chill out man, you're trying too hard." And for my whole life I've watched my peers undergo spiritual and intellectual atrophy.
If I do not strive for some level of precision in my speech, to question belief and consider intellectually the logic behind what I have to say…if I let that responsibility go and let the world burn, the world I wish to see will never come to be. I personally know more or less 5-10 people who would ever care about this as much as I do. Maybe life would be easier if I did let go, but I can't unsee what I have seen. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
Understanding the need for empirically vetted definitions and empirically minded thought has nothing to do with giving therianthropy/otherkin/etc. a scientific "stamp of approval." Instead, this is about being responsible about what you can assert as truth and what you must clarify as personally held belief. The alternative leads down a long road to authoritarianism and cult-like behaviors. Our society has a critical lack of understanding when it comes to these things and it shows. It shows on nearly every level of human society - politics, finance, religion, the whole nine yards. If humans go extinct or our societies descend into seemingly inescapable fascism, I would wager that it will have been this lack of understanding that did it. Science is necessary and it's why you're not going to die before the age of 40 in the year of our lord 2026.
The problem I've detailed may not seem important and it may even seem pedantic, but understanding this subject or not may mean the difference between maintaining the cult-like aspects of the therian community we all know and hate or nurturing healthy discussion in a thriving, positive community. If you are able to see the nuance, please advocate for this. No one else will do it for us.
Can't say I have an opinion on adopting the term one way or the other. I think that's mostly from what you pointed out, the terminology bloat. Every week there's another word for something you know was defined by someone else a month ago, on repeat.
The way you've described what it is, and the experiences… I like that. I think regardless of the label, describing it like you have is valuable. Shift focus to the experiences, the life itself.
"Growing up in religion we are often taught that belief is virtue and that you must believe in one way or another. After all, taking the stance of "not believing" something is the belief that something is not. It seems like a circular dilemma on the surface and cults will often try to manipulate that intuition. I've since found that the responsible thing to do is to simply observe the moment and decline to believe in the first place."
I like this bit, as it gets at a fundamental misunderstanding people have about atheism. Even other atheists get this wrong more often than not. It isn't "I believe god doesn't exist" as that implies we have evidence; it is "I am unconvinced that any god exists", because there really is no evidence. The distinction does matter. To claim to be rational means you have to logically analyze what's available to you, and the logical conclusion I come to is that there's nothing behind the curtain. Until and unless I see that there is, I just don't care about the curtain at all. Life is easier, in my opinion, without the need to believe in anything. Belief in things I can't verify mostly gives me headaches these days. Or at best, something nice to fall asleep thinking about. I/we used to need it though, so I get it, but that understanding also makes me impatient with it because I know how it holds people back.
I'm not as plugged in as I used to be, but I don't know how cultish things are lately. Ever since the physical shifting/zoanthropy stuff took off, I've gotten even more distant. It's hard not to see patterns and stay quiet all the time, so it's easier to just be absent.
"I also believe that potential authority figures such as Therian Guide, as well as general members of the community at large, have a responsibility to avoid the promotion of magical thinking. By not educating people about the fact that the "non-human animal experience" is an interpretation of one's experiences as "non-human" rather than an undeniable fact of existence clearly within the definition of therianthropy, magical thinking is encouraged."
But then you come out swinging with this one and I have to sigh, because we've been thinking this for a while, but it's one of those perspectives that (usually) ends in the audience writing you off as some stubborn greymuzzle or whatever. Black and white thinking makes my scales itch.
That's a lot of words for me to say "Yeah", basically, but I appreciate the novelty of going into this tag and getting to think critically.
I'll have to reread this a few times to form a coherent perspective on it (something that's unlikely to happen considering the reading funk I've been in lately - I haven't been able to finish a physical book for a year). But my first immediate thought is a question: How is the therian community's interpretation of internal experiences as nonhuman different from the trans community's interpretation of internal experiences as gender incongruent? Should we treat the two communities with the same type of empiricism, and would it be beneficial to do so? Sorry if that's a redundant question; my reading comprehension is not as good as it used to be.
"Even other atheists get this wrong more often than not."
Yes. A lot of Christian apologists attempt to fight the "atheist" belief that God does not exist when actual atheists don't even believe that he doesn't. Atheism is not the belief that deities do not exist - it is defined as the absence of belief in them. The distinction is super important. The confusion often comes from these cults trying to flip the narrative. Interestingly enough, every apologist I've ever known ended up becoming atheist or pagan themselves.
"But then you come out swinging with this one and I have to sigh, because we've been thinking this for a while, but it's one of those perspectives that (usually) ends in the audience writing you off as some stubborn greymuzzle or whatever."
I'm only 29! Not even 30 yet! Don't..........don't even........XD
"How is the therian community's interpretation of internal experiences as nonhuman different from the trans community's interpretation of internal experiences as gender incongruent? Should we treat the two communities with the same type of empiricism, and would it be beneficial to do so?"
I am not sure I'm well enough versed in the trans community's interpretations of their experiences. I'm sure there will be nuance with each different segment of LGBTQIA+. I do believe we should approach the way we define things with an empirical attitude.
Let's take xenogender for example. Someone suggested that this post was veering towards "anti-xenogender ideology" - so I had to learn what xenogender was. Xenogender's official definition as "a gender that can't be contained within human concepts of gender" bothers me a lot.
Gender has been defined by humans to include any combination of things such as identity, social roles, expression, presentation, and more. To say your gender is "not within the human concept of gender" is to say that it is not gender and instead something entirely different, because the human concept of gender IS what we know of as "gender." If one is saying that they are windgendered (a defined xenogender) because they identify as the wind or feel empathetic towards their own personal concept of it, that is by definition not outside the human concept of gender (because it is an identity, and identity is part of gender) and therefore not "xenogender." That is not to say that "windgender" is invalid, but that "xenogender" is nothing related to gender at all, and may in fact be nothing in the first place. This is more of a linguistic debacle than anything because the definition of xenogender inherently negates itself. Its definition on this website would be linguistically sound if they were to simply change that first line about it being outside the human concept of gender to instead say that it is outside the gender binary. I am making an edit to this there, hopefully they understand.
I don't blame anyone for not thinking well-enough through however they want to define what they experience. The post on zoesthesia took me 14+ hours to write, 4 months of turning it around in my head, and discussions with researchers and community members to refine it in a potentially constructive way. It is extremely difficult to bridge the explanatory gap, so it is often good to take analysis of such things with a slow and methodical approach and with insight from others.
I don’t think we need a whole new term for this, and I think that’s sort of counterproductive to your point, anyways? I’ve discussed how conceiving of therianthropy as a framework resolves these issues (in so many words). What exactly does a new term provide that awareness and reframing of “therianthropy” can’t better accomplish?