#willowy creature

Then she grows up a little, kinda gets shiny eyed over golden haired princes like Joffrey and romantic figures like Loras Tyrell. But then she learns they’re false.

And surprisingly for how he was introduced as an arrogant lordling, Waymar died challenging an Other even in a hopeless situation and becomes heroic.

Waymar’s a third son— Sansa chooses love first over power/status. She doesn’t actually think much about being queen unless it’s having a king and their babies. She doesn’t think of being a queen to rule over people, she was never power hungry— she wants to be loved.

Then let’s look at Jon. Don’t tell me you don’t think that boy is harboring secret dreams of having a lady love and living in Winterfell with his future children. (Hah he wants legitimate children of course he does. He’ll father no bastards. He definitely would NOT get that from Ygritte.)

He daydreams about picturing this with Ygritte, then gets horribly reminded of how violent Ygritte can be. Then later, he finds Val attractive but it’s also hilarious how he can’t help but randomly compare her to a willowy creature brushing her hair in a tower.

(Remember this boy was hating on the royal Lannister kids with Robb the Stark Heir, but somehow casually inserts that Sansa looked radiant.)

Thank you for the perspective!

I can't judge how true this is for teenaged boys in general, but it certainly seems true for Jon and the slightly disparaging tone in his description of a "willowy creature" of a princess.

Especially since in-universe there is about zero amount of pressure for boys to be into damsels in distress. They are a trope in "the songs" but absolutely no one is shown to be attracted to any female character specifically for matching that trope (the only character who thinks about this idea one time is Brienne, actually) nor is any character shown to have any hesitation about showing attraction to Val for not matching the trope. All they care about is her physical beauty.

No one and nothing is putting pressure on baby Jon to be into girly princesses. So what exactly is motivating him to emphasize how much he is not into that hair-brushing lady in a tower? After he was already in a (non-consensual) relationship with a violent warrior woman who did not have an affinity for personal grooming or being cared for?

Was there some pressing need to bring this subject up and connect the mind of the reader to Jon and the image of a princessy princess?

(referencing this post)

It is a little meta to have Jon thinking so dismissively about princesses in connection to Val, someone who he points out isn’t a princess but they’ve decided is one, who doesn’t live in a tower but was locked away in one, who only regained her freedom because Jon, a guy, freed her to use her to his own ends. Idk, Martin might be saying something about their society in which men force women into a role they may not even want and then the women suffer for it. 🤔

Hi there!

@kellyvela has some great posts about the misunderstanding of the 'willowy creature' statement.

I would add that I always had the feeling that Jon is so accustomed to do without the things that his trueborn brothers get that he is in the habit of painting it in a good light for himself.

It is pretty clear that he does what is expected of a 'good bastard' that is not pushing his claim but joining the NW, not accepting Stannis ' offer but staying with the NW and his duty. And a 'willowy creature' is someone who is for a trueborn noble like Robb, not for the likes of him.

Despite the fact that he believes all his brothers are dead, and that Stannis would make him Lord of Winterfell, and that Jon really, really wants Winterfell and a nice lady who gives him children, he refuses to be bribed by Stannis.

That is why he tells himself that 'the grapes are too sour'.

We see Jon supporting women in distress or in trouble : Alys Karstark and the fighting women of the freefolk who get a castle for themselves so that they won't get pestered by men. He wants to help Jeyne whom he thinks is Arya - and that is a 'damsel in distress' if there ever was one!

So, he does not despise women simply because they need help (and if he did that he would be rather unlikeable) -as you said. He also knows that women can be brave even without fighting. He thinks Alys is brave for defying her uncle and marrying Sigorn!

He also encourages the not so valiant Sam and the frightened Satin without thinking lesser if them.

Also, it is not said explicitly, but he likes characteristics that other women share with Sansa : Ygritte's singing is one of the things he likes very much. And at the occasions when Val is described with honey coloured hair she is a stand-in for Sansa.

So, in regard to Jon and the 'willowy creature' it is not that Jon does not like this kind of women, it is that he thinks that he -as a bastards- is not good enough for them and it is only when he consciously thinks about this type of women he tells himself that he doesn't like them. His behaviour and the things he is attracted to tell us something completely different - an knowing GRRM there is a reason for that!

I don't doubt that it is also a reference to Lyanna, especially given how Jon contrasts the willowy creature with the horse-riding "warrior princess" concept he assigns to Val. It highlights the fact that both aspects describe Lyanna, making this dismissive fake dichotomy Jon creates particularly nonsensical. (Which also undercuts the idea that we're supposed to take his dismissal at face value.)

But the reference to hairbrushing especially is something heavily associated with Sansa as a character, same as "waiting for some knight to rescue her". And the example of "blushing maidens looking to be protected" also doesn't particularly recall sword-swinging bold Lyanna first and foremost. These phrases bring to mind Sansa for a reason.

When Alys Karstark shows up as a girl-not-in-grey, a maiden looking to be protected, she too blushes at one point, referencing a shared childhood memory that just so happens to mirror Sansa's TWOW Alayne sample chapter in several precise phrases as well as general context.

The context in which he praises "warrior princess" Val in this chapter is also decidedly geared toward the marital over the maternal, given how her physical description is repeated alongside her skills and courage. "A worthy wife for any lord." A bit of an uncomfortable connection to make if Lyanna was supposed to be the only point.

Lyanna is in there, utterly.

It is as funny as Jon describing the willowy creature he doesn't want in more explicit detail than warrior princess he supposedly does want. I have seen antis say with their whole chests that grrm added this line to 'debunk' jonsa. Why would he feel the need to clarify he isn't going to make two 'siblings' end up together is beyond me.

Hi anon!

Um. I mean, I can only give you my own personal take on this. You seem to have a lot of thoughts already?

Val is one of the more obvious amalgamations. Dark honey hair screams Sansa, moon-silver hair screams Dany. The reddish one “belongs” with Ghost, the silver one leaves him cold. It’s not really so subtle.

The willowy creature in the tower is also multi-layered. But what is often overlooked when people focus on the dismissive wording is that in this scene Jon wants Val to be a princess with diplomatic skill. He is only augmenting what kind of princess she is. But a princess she has to be for his purpose in that moment, which is talking to Selyse about Hardhome. It’s not an idle moment of admiration, he is sizing her up for a job. He needs a princess, and a warrior princess is the only kind he has access to. As opposed to the soft, fluffy kind that has use for “some knight”. 

Considering that Jon jumped at the chance to rescue Alys Karstark (imprisoning her uncle, arranging a marriage) and is internally fretting about Arya imprisoned for marriage by the Boltons, it’s pretty clear that there’s more than a little suppressed hurt in that statement. He clearly wants to be “some knight”. It’s an indictment on the concept of knightly rescue as a whole, not just the willowy creature in need of saving. If he’s dismissing the willowy creature, he is dismissing himself in the same breath. It’s a sad dismissal. A “life is not a song, sweetling” dismissal.

Let’s also contemplate for a moment that in this scene, Jon and Val fail to convince Selyse to help save the Wildlings at Hardhome.