#unforth replies

Really, I am just always sad to see the opinion that ever touching an ai tool makes you a hack. I agree that the majority of ai use is uninteresting and uninspired but it is fundamentally a tool, and its value (or lack thereof) comes from how it is used.

So, I do think conversations about AI often lack nuance, which for starters is why I always specify generative AI; there are other types of things that we call AI, and lots of people use those kinds of technology - including me, I use spellcheck when I write, I use line stabilizers when I draw, under a very broad umbrella those would count.

I've also thought a great deal about ways that artists can use even gen AI as a tool. I think there's a lot of interesting things that could potentially be done examining propaganda, for example. However, these usages don't alleviate the fundamental issues related to the environmental impact, resource usage, and mass copyright violations that go into gen AI. Using gen AI to critique gen AI is not a great choice in my opinion; there are other and better ways to do it.

In my opinion, of usages I know of, the sole interesting and entirely 100% valid use of generative AI for a creator is/would be:

If a creator - author or artist - knew enough computer programming to create their own small model, trained entirely on their own work and/or works in the public domain, I think we could get some interesting creations out of that, creations I would not have an ethical objection to personally.

Aside from usages like that, I have not yet thought up or encountered any usages I'm really on board with, when all the costs of gen AI usage are taken into account.

Gen AI is a tool, but it's a tool built on mass theft - including of my own personal works and those that my Press has published - and since it's so-called value was built on things I spent hundreds of hours of my life on and haven't received a penny for, it's a tool that I think is, in it's current mass-produced publicly available form, a poison pill.

If someone steals 10,000 hammers from 10,000 hardware stores, throws them all in a pile, and pulls one out and says, "look, here's a hammer! Yes, all the hammers were stolen, but after they were all mixed together, it became impossible to tell whose hammer was originally whose, and there's obviously no way to give them all back, so now it's not theft. It's just a tool!", that'd be really obviously bullshit. The hammer is still stolen, and the person who stole it is still a thief, even if returning it is impossible.

For genAI to be an actual tool, the current models would need to be eradicated and restarted with ethical foundations. Right now, using it just says the person doing the using doesn't care about the theft, and yeah, I'm gonna judge someone and call them a hack. I did that work. Millions of us did that work. What right do Sam Altman and Google and all these assholes have to take what we did and mash it all together and then go, "no this thing that spits your words back out is just a tool, it's okay, anyone can use it! It's not like it's possible to tell who any given word was stolen from anyway!" It's still stolen. It's still one hammer from 10,000. And no, the fuck, they can't use my words. Because they were my words, and if you want to reuse my words, you need to ask my fucking permission. I never gave that permission. None of us did. Calling it "just a tool" might obfuscate the theft, but it cannot erase it, and people who decide they're okay with it and use the tool anyway deserve every bit of judgement that gets hurled at them.

These are my words, and the words of millions of writers from all over the world. We made those words. It's not even that hard. I've just made a whole bunch more to write this post.

I’m in my mid 20s and enjoy danmei. I read 2ha before the published paperbacks came out and was pretty excited to be able to eventually own physical copies of the story i love so much. But I somehow end up feeling very self conscious about buying them, since they contain multiple explicit scenes and I’m worried if someone were to browse my bookshelf someday and come across these, they’d judge me harshly. I’m not sure if marriage is in the cards for me, but if/when I do end up getting married and having children, how exactly would I explain having these books to my husband and kid(s)? In my country, joint families are fairly common so I also might end up having to live with my husband’s parents and I’d be toast if they were to come across these 😬. I know it seems silly to be worried about a hypothetical future husband and children but I’m afraid I can’t help it. Since you have kids, how do you manage keeping your danmei novels? Do you hide them, or just tell them they’re books for adults?

Anon you sound like you've got some pretty incredible hang-ups about sex. Are you this worried about if my kids find the scene in MDZS where Wen Chao has to eat is own legs? Or if I allow your hypothetical, are you worried what your spouse and kids would think of that kind of content?

The 2ha books are books. I keep them with the books. I have a dedicated shelf for danmei in my bedroom, and they're there. My kids have seen me reading them and can access them anytime and have never given a single fuck or shown any interest whatsoever in what I'm reading, EXCEPT when I'm reading shounen manga and then they're excited. Oh or that time I read some Pokémon manga. And sometimes they're interested in the YA queer graphic novels I get from tbe library. Okay yeah if I'm reading comics they sometimes care. But a prose book? Zero fucks given. I tell them nothing, because they don't ask, but if they did ask, I'd tell them a simplified version of the truth, and I know my kids: zero fucks would continue to be given.

This whole "omg ~sex~" thing doesn't exist unless you as the adult make it exist. I don't act like there's some great mystery they're missing out on but will be ~initiated into the secrets of~ when they're older. That is the surest way to make them desperate to know things they're not ready for. They've had some age-appropriate sex-ed in the Our Whole Lives program offered at our church, and the one time I made the mistake of thinking my son knew more than he did (he knew sperm + egg = baby, so I assumed he knew penis inside vagina was the process. I assumed wrong.) his reaction was a hilarious, "they do WHAT?" and he has never brought it up again. The other day we read a book that included a joke about a teenage man being given a shirt that says "I make chicks hot" (he was going to work at a fast good joint, the joke was its about literal chicken) and my son looked me dead in the eye and said "that joke is NOT age appropriate." He's almost 9, so I told him puberty is coming whether he wants it to or not, and I'd rather he know these feelings exist before the first time they happen than be blindsided when they do (I didn't say, "if they do," I figure the nuances of my utterly asexual non-awakening aren't a detail he needs quite yet.)

All of which is to say, I find this ask utterly baffling and it honestly feels like a trap, but I'm trying to take it in good faith, and in good faith, anon, I'm telling you this:

If the hypothetical husband in your scenario would disapprove of what you're reading, then why the fuck is hypothetical you marrying him?

If the hypothetical kids in this scenario might find age-inappropriate materials, why aren't you worried about the violence? Or the horror parts? And why is hypothetical you telling the hypothetical kids anything at all about the books? Did they ask??? Or are you thinking hypothetical future you is so terrified of being caught with sexy books that you're the one bringing up adult stuff, unsolicited, to these kids? Cause THAT'S the weird thing to do. Going "and just so you know, kids, these books are for ADULTS" when they haven't paid any attention at all is going to create a problem where none exists. I'm not gonna pretend the kid doesn't exist who isn't more interested in what their parents read than mine are about my reading, and of course some kids will end up in traumatic situations that result in them knowing more than they normally would about these topics, and that's tragic that some kids have that happen. But in my experience of the kids I used to run into when I worked in schools, my own kids, their friends, etc., these kids have absolutely zero, zilch interest. When my kids ask what kinds of books I'm reading, I say books about men in ancient China. That leads to immediate negative interest cause it sounds dry and boring to them. Problem (no actual problem existed) solved.

You want to know what IS hard to talk about?

Warning them about predators.

When it's never once crossed their minds that anyone would have any interest in their private parts - because they're just a normal part of their body - having to explain that if a grown-up touches them in certain places, or asks to look at them naked, or tries to get them alone, etc., then they have to say no and find an adult they trust. When they were younger, explaining THAT was hard.

I'm not afraid of what my kids might find in a book. They're not interested, and even if they were, these books are above their literacy level right now (my son has nearly finished his first chapter book! It's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I'm very proud of him). And if they could somehow read a book this hard, and understand it, and accidentally read an age inappropriate part, and and and... well, then, we'd talk about it. I trust them to come to me if they run into media they're uncomfortable with, and I also check in periodically to open the door. And they have sometimes brought up concerns, and we talk about it, and that's that. The hardest right now to explain? What the alt-right pipeline might look like in a Minecraft YouTuber video. Fuck but that is HARD to communicate to kids who have only the vaguely idea of the current political situation.

Honestly I'm more worried they'll read the part where the demon mom eats her own child alive. That is the most triggering scene I've ever encountered in fiction. I've never read the whole chapter.

But you didn't even think of that. Because you're too busy thinking about how to tell your non-existent kids that these books have SEX and it's not for KIDS and they shouldn't read it.

Anon, I'm not afraid of what my kids might get exposed to in books.

I'm afraid of what real people might do to hurt my kids, and how I prepare them for actual trauma.

A book can't hurt them. Well, maybe if someone throws it at them. But if they read something that freaks them out they know to just. Stop reading. And they can ask us about it and we can help unpack it.

But preparing them for the harm actual humans can do to them? Explaining why we're at a BLM protest? Explaining why they have to be wary of any stranger OR NON-STRANGER (because most abuse is by someone the child knows!) who wants access to their body isn't okay? Having to wrap my head around "I don't think any of our relatives are sex abusers but IF they secretly are what language do I use to convey to my child that their aunt, uncle, cousin, grandparent, shouldn't have access to their body in certain ways but still can touch you to wipe poop off"? Trying to say "I know you like this person's minecraft persona but if they start saying mean things about a group of people different from them you have to stop watching and tell a grown-up"? Knowing there's no warning on the planet that can prepare them for all the actual harm that can come to them from real people? That's the hardest part of parenting. I can't protect them without smothering them. I have to let them face some risks or else they'll never develop. I hate this. It's so fucking hard.

Anyway.

That's the hard stuff anon.

You are entirely and utterly worried about the wrong problem.

If this was a good faith ask... you should sit and unpack why you are uniquely worried about the sex parts of 2ha and not the violence parts. You should ask yourself why you think you'd love and marry and raise a family with someone who'd disapprove of your taste in books. You should ask yourself why this is your hang-up, and why you think you'd have to say anything at all about the books to a person browsing your shelf, a spouse, an in-law, a kid.

If this wasn't a good faith ask...idk what you're fishing for, anon, but the fact that you think I'd say anything at all about the contents of a book they are absolutely not ready for is fucking weird. I will say something when they ask and not a moment before, and when they do ask I'll tell them honestly it's a book with a lot of violence and sex and adult stuff and if somehow that didn't drive them away (it would right now, instantly) then that'd suggest maybe they're ready to know more, and I'd steer them to more age-appropriate ways to learn a bit more about sex. There, the problem you made up is solved.

Good luck, anon. Whether this was good faith or not, you have a lot of mental baggage to sort through.

*

I just reread the ask in preparation for posting, and as a few final notes: 1. My wife (no husbands here) knows what I read, 2. My father lives with us, and he knows what I read, 3. My mother in law also knows what I read, and it makes her uncomfortable I think but she recognizes that's a "her" problem and leaves me alone, and 4. My mother is chomping at the bit to get her hands on my 2ha, she's been very disappointed that most of the danmei she's borrowed post MDZS and SVSSS hasn't been more "like that." So don't assume your in-laws will flip out. Most people know books are just books. But I also don't know your culture/country/situation. I was raised by incredibly progressive people in one of the most socially progressive cities in the world (New York City, we have race problems but in other areas we're not bad), and like. My entire cultural surroundings are chill about stuff. I'm also not Christian. Obviously in another culture with stricter mores I can see why this could be more of an issue but you asked how I handle it and I can only give an honest answer from the actual reality I live in, which is that it never has crossed my mind anyone would care and sure enough, no one has cared. 🤷 I'm sorry if that's led me to be dismissive of legitimate concerns, it's very hard to know what anons on tumblr are well intentioned and which are from people who are just waiting to go HA THAT EVIL PERSON PUTS THE NAUGHTY DIRTY BAD PORN WHERE THE KIDS CAN GET IT. Considering that people have been sending me asks recently that my son should die, or that he will grow up to be a rapist because that's what men do, because my post that maybe people shouldn't hate men has brought enough attention that the fucking weirdos think lashing out at an 8 year old is an entirely normal and reasonable response to "stop virulently hating men just because they are men," I hope you can understand why my tone is what it is and why I have to consider that this ask is not being sent in good faith. Those anons I block and delete unanswered, so me writing this response is already giving you some benefit of the doubt.

Regardless. Work on you first, anon. You deserve people who will love you even knowing that sometimes you read kinky shit, and do not under any circumstances tell your kids, should you have them, a word more than they need to know. If they're very precocious early readers MAYBE move the books, but otherwise odds are they won't be able to even read the back blurbs, much less the inside, until they're old enough to know a little about how life works, and you can frame what you tell them to what they know then.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/60725947/chapters/155900596#workskin

And here is the full work link I got from the Wayback:

https://archiveofourown.org/works/60725947?view_full_work=true

My problem is that it was completed at 36 chapters, but the full work link on the wayback archive capture was from before it was completed at 32 chapters. Is there any way to get the full fic?

I was left on a cliffhanger and panicked when I realized it was deleted between Feb 8th and 12th! 😭

I would be eternally grateful if you could help me so I can finish reading it!

Hey!

Ack, sorry I didn't reply for so long, I haven't been logging in from desktop so I didn't even know I had the ask.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the 36-chapter version of this work, and if it's not on Wayback, there's probably not much to be done unless we can luck into someone who is reading this having a copy.

I'm posting it - fingers crossed!!!

Sure, I can try to do that going forward. I'll use the version with a space (skin creature) instead of as one word.

Hey hey!

The only public fandom server I'm part of for Chinese media (...virtually the only public fandom server I'm in at all, and my personal main hang-out spot on Discord...) is @merinnan et al's Daomu Biji server.

It's the nicest, chillest, most welcoming public fandom server I've ever been in - not that we haven't had our moments of drama, but they've been rare, and I've always felt comfortable there - and I've made a lot of friends too. That said, if you're not into DMBJ and/or as obsessed with Zhu Yilong as I am, I can't imagine it'd be a great fit.

Also, so - I'm @unforth, and my day job is that I own and operate an indie micropress, Duck Prints Press, that publishes original work by fanartists and fanauthors. As part of that, I and the staff involved with that run a "Book Lover's" Discord server. While it's sort of a combo "about the Press" and "about all queer books" and "about whatever we feel like talking about" server, we do end up talking about danmei a fair amount because multiple of the people involved in the Press, including obviously me, are into that kind of thing. Like we do a weekly chat on Wednesday about what we're reading and yesterday's was like, "here's one mlm YA book! here's a thriller in Dutch! here's the Yuri manga I just read! And here are the eighteen bajillion things we're all currently reading on Bilibili oh and I started Poyun." You're certainly welcome to join us. What we talk about there really boils down to what the people who are there want to talk about, ya know?

About a million years ago, I started building a cnovelartreblogs Discord server myself, but I've been so frackin busy the last couple years that I've never managed to finish setting it up the way I'd like. That said, it's got penciled in rules and channels for some of the more popular cnovel fandoms (mostly danmei, tho there is a Please Don't Laugh section). If I could get help moderating it, I could open it.

I just really don't have the ability to do it myself anymore, my days right now are like:

wake up

scroll tumblr and do upkeep on the art side blogs (while sitting with my kids and helping them get ready for the day) (1.5 hrs or so)

study Chinese (while sitting with my kids and helping them get ready for the day (.5 hrs, tho I wish it was more, if I can manage more than 30 minutes then I can actually try reading a real damn book but I only have the time maybe once or twice a month)

work (7 to 8 hours on weekdays, often more on the weekends, bonus if my kids are around and my wife is at work, such as tomorrow)

try to be a good mom (all the hours)

errands, chores, kid after school activities, etc. (1 to 3 hours a day)

read while snuggling kids on the couch and trying to ignore the tv (an hour if I'm lucky)

sleep (8ish hours, I hope)

there's just no wiggle room left for me to do any extra fandom stuff right now, sigh.

thx for explaining!

Howdy!!

I'm glad you asked!

Basically, a repost/art repost is when someone posts a piece of artwork they didn't create and then posts it on their own account, usually without crediting the original artist. This often makes it look like the person who reposted it IS the original artist, and any attention, likes, reblogs, followers, etc., all go to the reposter, instead of the artist who actually created the piece.

Example 1: I go on Pinterest and I find a piece of artwork and I go OH WOW THAT'S PRETTY I NEED TO SHOW EVERYONE I'VE EVER MET so I download the piece of art work, make a brand new tumblr post, put the art in that post, and go HEY LOOK AT THIS ART.

Example 1 is a repost.

A reblog, on the other hand, is basic Tumblr functionality in which any old blogger hits the "reblog" button and kinda..."passes forward" from the original poster. When you reblog a creator's work, they still get the notes, followers, etc. - it's still clear that they're the person who actually created the piece of artwork.

Example 2: I'm scrolling my dashboard and I see someone with username person12345 say, HEY EVERYONE I MADE AN ART DO YOU LIKE IT? And I think to myself, YES I DO, so I hit the reblog button.

Generally speaking, reposts are *highly* frowned upon and considered extremely rude. If you didn't make something yourself, don't post it unless you have express permission OR the original creator has something like "Reposts allowed" on their account (which is rare but does happen. Even an authorized repost should always have credit to the original creator attached to it; "Credit to the owner" is not credit. The reasoning is that, firstly, artists put a fuckton of work into what they create, so for someone to just take it post it somewhere else is kinda fucked (like, imagine if someone did that with a fanfic!). Secondly, a lot of artists rely on sales to their shops, commissions, etc., to get income - but when work is reposted without naming them or without linking them, they lose out on all of that.

Reposting on this website ranges from completely innocent "oh oops I didn't realize that wasn't nice" all the way through intentional attempts at theft/taking credit from original creators. If I had a nickle for every time someone called me a bitch, asshole, or crusader for suggesting they not repost, I'd be able to buy, like...dinner.

Generally speaking, posting work you DID make yourself is awesome, as is reblogging from artists who post their own work.

I could go into a LOT more about this, but tbh it'd kinda be reinventing the wheel. Instead, lemme grab some existing resources that can add more information to this, if you want to know more.

@dont-repost-art is a cool account dedicated to spreading information about why reposting is bad. It's not really active anymore but if you just scroll through what they've reblogged in the past you'll still get some good info.

How to Spot Art Reposts: a long post I wrote a bit ago, discussing art reposting, why it's bad, and how to recognize signs that piece might be a repost, with an emphasis on danmei fandoms on Tumblr.

Flow Chart: Can I Post This Fanart?

Really everything in the tumblr search "art reposting" which is full of artists being upset about people reposting their work....kinda says it all

FINAL NOTE: When an artist says "do not repost" they do NOT mean "do not reblog." Please, please reblog artist work, if you like it. Creators are what make this site so amazing, and when their work doesn't get much love, creators get discouraged and don't want to keep creating. When people steal their work without crediting them, they don't want to keep creating. When people treat them like art-producing machines, they don't want to keep creating. NOT reposting, and ACTIVELY reblogging (with a healthy side dose of "saying nice things in the tags") is a great, small, easy way that every single fan on this site can help creators fell all warm and happy and like they should keep making things.

Hope this helps!