"Well.... aren’t you a sight for sore eyes. And mine are extremely sore!!” That hood of his was quite low, covering more of his face in shadow, and he knew the dramatic effect would be seen as such by all who would look. His duties in aiding his restless Lord were on hold, until he felt the need to continue them. For now, though, he only had the attention solely given to this one, and made sure that they would not be interrupted by anyone else.
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What Does The Phrase "Saiyans Don't Have Limits" Actually Mean?
So this post below is what @ankoku-yami-heroic-hopeful made a reply to.
GROWING STRONGER FROM BATTLE
Hmmm... 🤔
TRANSFORMATIONS
Hmmmm... 🤔
Saiyans claim that they are the greatest fighters that exist, yet majorit
And here's their response.
I just felt it easier to to respond to them this way. Also, what I have to say ended up being longer than I had originally planned because I wanted to get a bit deeper about the information. Without further ado, time to respond.
The DBS anime did have characters continuously growing in power. But they did so in different ways, which was cool to see. With Hit (as you mentioned) he was able to advance his technique and increase how much energy he puts out for his Time Skip technique, & Goku Black was able to increase the strength of Goku's body to a new level due to having the soul of a god combined with Saiyan abilities. And beyond them, we have Jiren who was the strongest mortal in the Multiverse. When UI Goku pushed Jiren to his limit, Jiren overcame his own limit with his "Super Full Power" state.
Saiyans (mainly Vegeta) boast about not having limits. And 'cause of all of this boasting accompanied with the fact that Saiyans were grear warriors, even Freeza wondered if it might be true that Saiyans have no limits.
But, that is just Saiyan ego as they over exaggerate their strength. ANYONE can go past their limits.
Examples of Limit Breaking:
Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist increases his strength, reaction time, & senses. This is one of the earliest examples of surpassing one's own limits in early DB.
Master Roshi's full power/buff form is another example. He focuses & swells his ki to increase his strenght & surpass his limits.
The Earthlings didn't know they could get so strong until after training with Kami.
Elder Guru drew out Krillin's own latent power when Krillin thought he hit his limit. Little did he know, he was far from his limits and could continue increasing his ki to keep growing stronger and stronger beyond his physical limit (as we have seen him do in DBZ & DBS, thus having the title as "Strongest Earthling").
Elder Kai drew out Gohan's potential far beyond his natural limits (something he can do for anybody). That limit being Gohan's Saiyan transformations, specifically his current limit; SSJ2. This is why when using his Potential Unleashed power, Gohan doesn't physically transform like how his father & Vegeta do. It's power far beyond Super Saiyan limits. Gohan just has to masterfully control the power & not become overwhelmed with it in order to keep growing stronger.
Freeza surpassed his physical limits & power with his transformations. He was also being capable of controlling his ki at will. Then in DBS, Freeza created a further transformation & surpassed his limits with his "Golden Freeza" form.
All that to say that Saiyans ARE NOT the only ones who can break their limits and they never have been the only ones.
But, do Saiyans have no limit to their growth?
Yes & no.
Evidence shows us that the Saiyans (Goku & Vegeta & Gohan) have reached their physical limits WITHOUT ki.
What we call "zenkai boosts" [getting stronger after battles] have their limits. We notice in the Buu saga that after Dende heals Gohan, Super Buu stated that Gohan did not get any stronger.
The zenkai boosts can only do so much for a Saiyan's natural physical limit of strength without ki.
This is why in the Battle of Gods film/Saga, Goku & Vegeta nearly hit their limits without god ki. Then, in the DBS anime, after they learned god ki, Vegeta says that he & Goku are at their limits of power and won't get that much stronger. And in the DBS manga, Trunks says how Vegeta didn't get a power boost after healing because Vegeta & Goku have already hit their physical limit.
Zenkai boosts just get a Saiyan to their max physical limit (then they become ineffective), and Saiyans just happen to have a higher ceiling for their physical limit than most other aliens.
SURPASSING LIMITS
Toriyama explains in an interview how DB characters surpass their physical limits.
Everyone has their physical limits WITHOUT ki.
Ki is used to go beyond those physical limitations.
And if you aren't a transformation-type alien, you can still reach higher power through increasing & controling your ki, but the progression is steadier but slower for non-transforming types (like Earthlings) because there is no innate power multipliers for them to utilize. To quickly increase their power, Earthlings would need to learn techniques.
Roshi's Full Power technique uses ki to greatly enhance the physical limit of strength, but it decreases speed & cannot be maintained for long.
The dangerous & physically damaging Kaio-Ken. (Which is why Earthlings don't use it in the series.)
The Wolf Fang Fist (which is like a mortal version of Kaio-Ken x1 without various multipliers & no physical drawbacks).
With ki, any character can continuously increase their power through proper training & go far beyond their physical limitations. This is why characters like Piccolo & Krillin continue to get stronger.
NOBODY has limits in Dragon Ball. It's all about how to increase your ki and control it in order to break your limits.
But, how do Saiyans break their limits?
Well like anybody else does, Saiyans increase their energy. But, Saiyans (and other transforming-type aliens primarily) surpass their previous physical limits by transforming to a body that contains a greater amount of ki due to physical change.
In the Cell saga, the Saiyans discuss breaking the Super Saiyan barrier which is their current limit. Super Saiyan Grade 2 & Grade 3 were simply using ki to enhance the physical limit in a similar way to Roshi's Full Power technique. They don't truly go beyond the SSJ limits.
Gohan truly breaks the Super Saiyan limit when he awakens SSJ2. This is done due to the Earthling martial artist understanding of ki control & how to surpass your physical limits.
• SSJ transforms the physical limit
• The Earthling ki control method increases the multiplier of Super Saiyan, thus we get SSJ2 (& SSJ3).
And just like all Saiyan transformations, SSJ2 is accompanied with an increase of ki on top of the SSJ physical limit.
The highest Saiyan limit that Goku & Vegeta can currently reach is Super Saiyan Blue. This is why Vegeta says they are nearly at their limit. They can't find a Saiyan transformation beyond combining the Super Saiyan God power with Super Saiyan to get Super Saiyan Blue.
Without using god ki, SSJ3 was Goku's highest limit while SSJ2 was Vegeta's. The only higher power they could attain was through fusion.
But, with the introduction of god ki, they were able to keep advancing and breaking their limits once again. However even with god ki, they still had limits to their power. As said earlier, there was no Saiyan transformation beyond SSB. Blue was the limit for Goku and Vegeta (this does not apply to all Saiyans because MOST Saiyans aren't even capable of reaching SSJ levels of power).
The Tournament of Power presented the perfect opportunity for them to push themselves. But even so, Goku & Vegeta did not attain any new Saiyan transformation.
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution: Vegeta was able to evolve the power of SSB (thus named SSB Evolution) but it is still SSB.
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken: Goku used the Kaio-Ken technique to multiply the power of SSB to go beyond his limits. Still SSB.
Ultra Instinct: Goku used the Ultra Instinct technique to reach a realm of power beyond SSB & beyond certain Gods of Destruction.
But, its important to understand that Ultra Instinct IS NOT a Saiyan transformation. Its a technique/spiritual state of mind, a spiritual transformation that anyone can use. But, due to Goku's Saiyan biology, Goku physically transforms when using Ultra Instinct's power. This means that Goku had to learn a TECHNIQUE/SPIRITUAL TRANSFORMATION to push his power beyond Super Saiyan Blue, his highest Super Saiyan limit.
Goku used the Kaio-Ken technique to temporarily surpass his limits, then truly surpassed his limits with the Ultra Instinct technique.
CONCLUSION
EVERYONE in Dragon Ball has physical limits. But, they can increase their ki to go beyond their physical limits.
Thus, nobody has limits to their power. Just different ways to surpass said limits.
Toriyama explains how DB characters become stronger in an interview.
TLDR; Beings with transformations overcome their limits by transforming
Saiyans just quickly surpass their limits with their Saiyan transformations that provide a new physical limit accompanied with an increase of ki. Once there is not another transformation to go to, they are at their physical transformation limit. Using the teachings of Earthlings & gods allow certain Saiyans to increase their ki to push their new physical limits higher (like SSJ2 & SSBE).
But we have to remember that Goku & Vegeta are exceptions. They ARE NOT the norm for full-blood Saiyans.
VEGETA: He was a genetically gifted prodigy among the elites and even surpassed his father while he was a child. (This was an extreme anomaly compared to all other Saiyans.) Then Vegeta later learned how to use ki from Earthlings & used Earthling resources to increase his strength.
GOKU: Thanks to being taught by Earthlings, being raised as an Earthling, & being a rare Saiyan with a good heart, Goku was able to keep his body & learn from a god after he died. Thanks to all of this (which is very un-Saiyan like) Goku surpassed what Saiyans were supposed to be capable of. Then, he continued to use Earthling understanding of ki to push his Saiyan abilities further & further.
BROLY: He so much of an extreme abnormality amongst Saiyans that he's considered to be a freak of nature even to Saiyans. Broly had monsterous power even beyond a Saiyan prodigy like Vegeta.
"You there," Hilda called out to the Elezen, the heel of her boots clicking against the ground of the library. She had no idea why she was given this task given that it's not within her resume to be doing some mindless fetch quest, but it'd benefit her and the watch. That and... the woman looked like someone familiar with the wide selections in place. She didn't have it in her to ask a personnel, avoiding having to meet the gazes of Highborn if she could help it. "You don't happen to know where maps are stored here, do you?"
Heavy footsteps on the forest floor and the clattering of foreign armor were what first caught the Viera's attention. The second was the distinct smell of blood as he silently made his way through the canopy towards the sound.
Both spoke of a foreigner, a trespasser and someone foolish enough to travel through these parts with an open wound.
Long ears twitched and turned in various directions, listening for the familiar sounds of the forest to gauge any danger beyond the man he could see trudging through the foliage below.
Rhen kept following the stranger once he realized he was alone. He was a soldier. It was apparent now that he could see him, but they never travelled alone, or so the Viera thought until now.
Rhen moved around the foreigner, disappearing quickly behind a tree further into the direction the soldier was travelling. He was close enough to make out the features of his face, but remained near invisible to the untrained eye.
He paused there, watching as the man moved forward step by step. Closer as he was now Rhen could easily make out the other's light hair and the lack of elongated ears. But what caught and kept his attention for the longest was first the colored gem in the middle of his forehead and then the gold of his eyes. Even strained with pain the Viera couldn't deny that the man's features were pleasing to his eyes, although he cast that thought aside quickly once realizing what he was thinking.
He will die out here. Rhen thought then. If not by his wound then by the claws of a beast that caught his scent come nighttime, which wasn't far at this point in time.
It should reassure him. After all, it would save him the trouble of dealing with the trespasser himself. However, Yvael lay hidden in the opposite direction and as it stood the soldier wasn't a threat to his tribe and Rhen couldn't quite help his curiosity. He seldom saw anyone in these parts aside from his own people and barring the occassional territorial fight he didn't interact with anyone either. Least of all those of a different race.
So, he decided that, for now, he would follow him, if only because he was curious of how his story would end.
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“I have a proposition...” He said as he entered the library of this dreadful place, and hated every second of being here. Though, he knew of this one and her skills with knowledge. It was a necessary nuisance to be in such a cold place. His tall form was almost too much for this massive space, and the corridors between each shelf just barely managed to let him squeeze on through. He was coming towards her at a very leisurely pace. “...If you will listen.” Of course he was accompanied by the ever-annoying Ascian that just wouldn’t let him be, dancing around the area and poking at every book he could get his hands on.
Lumi stared blearily at the expanse of sky above, counting the pinpricks of stars almost absently as she tried to will herself to actually get up again. Or at least sit up. On the bright side, the mage was pretty sure that Zenos wasn’t actually doing much better on that front. (Yet. He’d probably manage to get up and demand another round soon, based on past experience.)
“We got a deal?” she asked finally after several minutes of failure to move. Her eyes slid closed as her ears flattened before twitching back up. “You stop being super weird and just call my linkpearl when you wanna spend a couple hours pounding each other into the dirt, and I’ll come do the thing with the magic and fireballs and kicking your ass?”
One hand managed to lift long enough to make a vague waving gesture before dropping back to the ground. After a pause she opened her eyes again.
“And call me by name. None of this my friend thing every time you talk to me, that’s super weird dude.”
