#steph meta

Looking through green arrow #5 for the wiki, and I know this comment is here because Kevin Smith either forgot or didn't know of the absurd state of things of Bruce not telling Steph who he really was despite her being one of the gang and knowing Tim's real name etc....

Being afraid of men for a time after that, quitting her piano lessons because she was afraid the piano teacher would hurt her, having to overcome that fear on her own, no therapy or support to help her.

Her gymnastics teacher, a man she trusted so much she got angry at her Mom for pointing out his suspicious behavior, turning out to be a drug dealer who sold to his own students.

Dean abandoning her when she wanted to stay and help with the earthquake. Already knowing that he wouldn't want to help her with the baby when she realized she was pregnant. Being proven right when he finally comes to see her, asks if the baby was his, and then rather than asking anything else about it, is pleased she gave the baby up for adoption because that means they can get back together, obviously.

Tim being someone she can trust to help her and have her back, but someone who rooted out her secret identity against her will, and after knowing it, does not take it seriously: shows he can't be trusted with it by calling her by her name in front of actual criminals, introducing her by name to other heroes without her permission. Not apologizing when Steph calls him on it. Meanwhile he guards his identity and Batman's so seriously he doesn't tell her his name even when they start dating. Still, he's the "nicest guy she ever dated" and "too good for her" in her view.

(This is not Tim bashing, okay, he was just objectively very wrong to do this. It could have gotten Steph killed!)

Batman, the man she used to hope to see in the sky when she was a little girl, who she considered her savior whenever he put her dad away, dismissing her. Batman dangling acceptance for her and then vanishing, only to come back and fire her for no reason. Punishing her for trusting him. Accepting her as Robin, but her knowing all along he was partly using her, him constantly making it clear he favored Tim and comparing her to him negatively, him putting her on probation and not trusting her with his identity when he trusted every other Robin, firing her for disobeying an order once (out of concern for him!) despite the fact she had been performing so well until then.

Black Mask torturing her while saying any vile misogynist thing he could think of. Overtly sexual things. There was no way she didn't think of her babysitter, didn't feel afraid.

How, coincidentally or not, things started looking up for her as Batgirl because she carved out a space where a man's support and approval wasn't necessary. She worked with Babs, who supplied her with weapons and help, who was willing to have her back even when Dick and Damian disapproved. She no longer needed Tim to be willing to work with her (something that she did have to rely on in her Spoiler days pre-Batman-acceptance, because he was the only one with actual training who was available to teach her things she needed to know (like dressing bullet wounds), the only person who gave her any backup, and the only person who supplied her with weapons). She made it very clear she didn't need Bruce's approval either.

She'll hallucinate/imagine Cass putting her arm around her! This is her ideal supportive Cass, and it implies she'd like Cass to be more physically affectionate.

Batgirl (2000) #26

And later puts her arm around her very casually. Notable she's actually cheek to cheek with her too. (lmao God this panel is so suggestive every time I reference it I'm like wow)

Batgirl #38

You see a lot of how physically affectionate she is with Tim in particular. She'll throw herself at Tim the moment she sees him sometines.

Robin 80 page Giant

Tim is usually contrasted as more reserved in that area and sometimes oblivious when she's asking him to make out or whatever.

Robin #100

Though there are times he'll approach her, she's usually the one who requests hugs and things like that.

Robin #56

The Brave and Bold time traveling Robin story got this exactly right, with Steph being the one who hugged Bruce out of all the Robins (though I think with Bruce specifically, if you were raised by him and know how distant he can be about that stuff that might affect not wanting to give physical affection that will likely be rejected or made awkward.)

The All New Batman: The Brave and the Bold #13

And though she's not super physically affectionate with her Mom in the early days, showing how strained their relationship was, once it improves she's very affectionate.

Gotham Gazette: Batman Dead #1

Batgirl (2009) #15

Batgirl (2009) #24

So yeah, I get that the exaggeration of Dick's touchy feeliness is because men aren't often show to be super physically affectionate in media, but it would be nice to talk about/depict this aspect of Steph more too. I can see her struggling surrounded by people who are more awkward about physical affection, and we can see a number of times when she reaches out and doesn't get a hug back.

I don't see Steph being in a place where she doesn't agree with it easily, given her sub ocean level self esteem (and that she IS blamed to her face and doesn't protest), but a narrative of one of Steph's loved ones realizing how fucked up how they talk about her is once they see what it's doing to her could be really fascinating.

With Jason there's the extra layer of them not knowing the actual circumstances and still saying it was his fault, when the context of him NOT intentionally taking on the Joker alone, just having his trust betrayed, changes a lot, and exploring those assumptions about him and why people made them could be so rich and interesting. Jason's beef should not JUST be about the Joker, but the way he was thought of as a failure, the way Batman and the others rewrote his personality in their heads- there's so many additional possibilities for a good story there, one that's really complicated and nuanced, that deals with the fact Bruce needs to believe he could have controlled the outcome as his own coping mechanism, that Jason had to be the wrong kid to be Robin, because if he wasn't, that means Bruce couldn't have stopped this and the same thing has a possibility of being repeated (I mean it already was because Damian but anyway).

I think he has that same thing with Steph, he has to justify treating her unfairly and firing her and that leading to her death as inevitable too, that he was Right and she wasn't cut out for it and he valiantly tried to stop her inevitable fate but just didn't stop her early on enough.

And lmaooo point by point

Ah yes because Dick Grayson and Jason Todd have never, ever been badly written. Ever.

All of these women are great characters who have been in some very well written comics and are just as rich and interesting as these men

please don't pretend you've ever tried to read about any of them, you clearly haven't

As for representing the female experience, Stephanie Brown is condescended to and discouraged and sometimes abused by every man in her life (and occasionally a woman joins in), but finds the inner strength to still pursue her goals and be defiant. She goes through a teen pregnancy. She's treated extremely differently from the male Robins and fired unfairly. She goes through sexual violence.She starts believing that she is lesser, and blames herself for being manipulated. She dies and is victim blamed to hell and back. She is not given a memorial like Jason gets nor is her death treated as important/haunting to Bruce. But then she comes back, and she eventually realizes she doesn't have to be dependent on the approval of men in her life and carves out a place for herself and receives support from other women. This doesn't solve the sexism she faces or her self esteem issues, but she's more confident and happier now.

How the hell is that not a representation of a female experience. Often completely unintentionally on the writers part, they agreed with her treatment in parts of this, but she's still so resonant because of that (and the fact that the demands of her largely female fans bought her back is another layer to things, as well as the fact that a DC writer said to my face that the women who fought for her to be recognized the same as Jason were annoying and he wishes he could shoot them. That became part of my female experience for sure.)

As I said, Jason and Dick have been through things women can relate to and that's fine, it's fine to discuss that-- but saying they're female coded or a reflection of the female experience and then ignoring actual female characters and their resonance with women's experiences--that's wrong.

I wanted to talk about Steph's relationship with school a bit. There was a poll a while back I saw that had Steph winning as likely to be the worst student of the Bats, and it's pretty much pure misogyny that's not supported by canon at all. Signs point to Steph being a good student if you pay attention.

In Steph's years primarily written by Chuck Dixon, what kind of student Steph was or what kind of grades she got was never directly said, but the mentions Steph does make of school imply/show that she's dilligent and dedicated as a student: She's often remembering she needs to do her homework (contrasting Tim who basically never thinks about it)

Robin #94

This implies she's taken something she learned in history class and applying it to her life, also.

She also does this with science:

Batgirl (2000) #20

It implies school is on her mind a lot (again, contrasting Tim)

The closest we ever see her get to complaining about school is not looking forward to doing math homework while nauseous from her pregnancy.

Robin #59

But it's when she goes to college we get a better look at what kind of student she is, and she's clearly a good and dedicated one despite having a busy life.

It should be noted that she was able to go straight to college despite missing a year in high school when she was "dead" and only having a month of additional high school. It could be Leslie set up a tutor or homeschool while she was with her (seems unlikely it would be consistent given they were going from village to village) but either way, it's pretty impressive she was able to essentially skip a grade and (most likely) get her GED.

Batgirl (2009) #15

The fact that Steph thinks getting all B's in college is like, bad, implies she's used to getting better grades. And the fact she gets B's while being a superhero AND having a part time job is pretty impressive.

She also joins a study group:

(also) Batgirl #15

She also calls the Great Gatsby "awesome" when describing what she's learned in college, showing a passion for her literature studies (though she does not like the Reconstruction era in history class) and that school is on her mind a lot.

(Some issue of Batgirl (2009) actually not sure, I remember it but not the issue #, I got this from another post)

And finally, she described herself as a dutiful college student.

Batgirl (2009) #4

So yeah, I'm not saying she's the BEST student of the Bats, or gets the best grades, but all signs point to her being a good and dedicated student, moreso than Dick and Tim at certain points in their lives where they saw school as a lower priority.