Comics fans have a tendency to insist on holding characters accountable for specific traits they have under one writer (who's not even their original creator) and never show under any writer ever again and it baffles me.
Talking about stuff reminded me I've seen some Babs "sexualizes Cass" discourse and it's like, lets be clear, she does that under Dylan Horrocks and Dylan Horrocks only, which makes is more of a Horrocks issue rather than anything that says anything about Babs. If she never shows these characteristics under any other writer, it should not be seriously considered when talking about her character. I think blaming the character and failing to hold the writer accountable, especially when it comes to stuff with a misogynistic slant, is part of the problem. Horrocks sexualizes Cass a weird amount once he comes on, and it warps everyone around her in the process.
For example suddenly Babs Batgirl costume is extremely especially sexy or something (despite being a standard superhero costume no more skintight than the one Cass wears) and emphasizing how hot Cass is in it leads to a super OOC moment from Tim (who, under Dixon and Lewis as the main people who wrote him at the time, is not the type of person to tell a girl she's hot or openly drool or whatever. He doesn't even do that to his actual girlfriends. And I think he's smart enough to realize saying this to his girlfriend's bff 1. will probably not impress her and 2. is tempting Steph's wrath if it gets back to her, I cannot imagine being that stupid).
But I see no one deciding to bring that up over and over when discoursing about Tim and Cass's relationship, for some mysterious reason.
(To be clear, I do think this stuff is subconcious for Horrocks, he was disgusted by Steph's death and it was part of why he quit DC irl, he clearly did care about Cass as a character, he highlighted that Devin Grayson fought back against it too, so on. But this stuff can be so ingrained you don't notice it)
But yeah, like, if a character acts weird under one writer, that's just what happens in comics sometimes and you have to ignore that, I think it's not relevant to how the character or relationship is written over all if it's an outlier.
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I'm going to start taking it personally when people say the girls are less of a disasterfire than the boys. No the fuck they aren't. They're completely dysfunctional, self-destructive, arrogant little goblins who've never met (1)healthy coping mechanism. They're Bats for Christ's sake. What comics have you even been reading.
I came from Erase the Epitaph, and was surprised and delighted to discover that you did so much work on the Steph wiki, which played a major role in getting me interested and invested in the character to begin with!
I have recently been writing a crossover story about Songbird and Troll from the Thunderbolts being trapped in Gotham, and I was wondering if you had any advice for writing Cass? I feel like I have an okay grasp on her character, but I'm always worrying about getting things right.
Aw thanks that's so nice!
I'm glad you seem to think I write Cass well, I like to hope I do, but she's a character with a lot of nuance
I guess I try to keep what era of Cass I'm writing in mind in regards to her speech patterns. Since Erase the Epitath is post War Games I give her the vocal tic where she pauses a lot when she speaks because that was how she talked in the Gabrych era. I'd say pick your era and study how she talks in those comics. I will say in preboot comics her grammar is generally sound even if she struggles to find the right words, she knows how sentences should be structured even if she speaks in short ones.
I think the main thing I remember about Cass is 1. she's stubborn, funny, and a little shit sometimes. This interaction with Steph is my guiding light and why I always try to include a little bit of an edge and a sense of humor with her.
She can be bossy and controlling too (this comes out a lot in the early days with Steph), she's similar to Babs and Bruce in how 'my way or the highway' she can get about things, which leads her to clash with both of them sometimes. You also see it cause some minor friction with Tim (who is also like that):
Like here, Tim and Cass start debating and Tim actually realizes immediately it's going to go on forever if he keeps arguing with her because she will not back down, so he stops it.
2. She's not an emotional savant, her body language reading abilities let her pick up nuances of emotions sometimes but she doesn't always know the right way to react or interpret them and she definitely doesn't always deal well with her own emotions, she's not socially experienced. So the fandom thing of Cass always having the best advice and being the Batfamily therapist isn't based in fact. Which isn't to say she can never give good advice or say something insightful! I think sometimes her blunt way of approaching things can be helpful- for example, you can see how her understanding there's something beneath all his brattiness helps her be patient and direct with Damian in Gates of Gotham etc. But her abilities aren't magic therapy tools.
She is extremely compassionate though and that's what drives her. She believes in redemption, doesn't like hurting people more than she believes has to, and takes every death she can't prevent very personally. Seeing other people's pain and experiencing it as they experience (such as how she saw the way the man she killed felt when he died) does really impact her.
But really, reading lots of Cass comics and Cass meta will help you the most with this! For Cass's speech patterns and how her reading different languages works, I rec this post from @fantastic-nonsense for example, you can also see a bunch of cass meta by clicking the cassandra cain meta tag on the post.
And honestly, also just remember to have fun, and that you caring and putting thought into this and wanting to do her justice, you're doing way better than some actual DC Comics, such as the evil Cass arc. The great thing about writing comics fanfic is that at some point canon probably fucked up worse than you ever will! And they were being paid! Puts things into perspective.
I have finally read through the entirety of the Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive storyline. I'd read parts of it but now I know all of it. But the fact David Cain's explanation for murdering Bruce's ex-gf and framing him for the murder to the point of doctoring the evidence so his family and closest allies would think he was losing it too.
"You're basically Cass's dad now I guess and sure I know it was her choice, you didn't "take" her from me and she's never coming back to me. I know all that. but I wanted to prove to her that YOU are just as big of an asshole as I am by showing you'd be a piece of shit to your family and push them away if you ever got in trouble and GUESS WHAT IT WORKED I WAS RIGHT"
is the funniest motive of all time.
"I may be a bad father who put my daughter through horrible abuse and trained her to be a living weapon, and I guess it's valid she doesn't want anything to do with me, but you suck too and I just need everyone to know that. Cass I just need you to know you did not upgrade all that much here!!!!" Just extremely petty.
And Bruce can't even refute him. He's just like "damn what a wakeup call I won't be like that anymore" but of course he'll inevitably be like that again as soon as DC decided Batman needs to be a loner. (War Games would be the next time. I think NML was the time before this one. It's really is fascinating how they never got tired of this plot).
(It is sweet that he protects Cain from getting assassinated entirely because he cares about Cass after this though.)
Anyway. This is the last time we'll see Cass be important in a crossover event and it's kind of wild. The batfam was genuinely all involved in this event (steph not too much, she's the exception because she nobody tells her anything as always, but she does at least show up a few times and not to get tortured) and given kind of equal weight and this was. the last time for a long time huh.
Anyway I absolutely love that Dick and Cass are firmly on "BRUCE WOULD NEVER KILL SOMEONE ESPECIALLY AN INNOCENT HOW DARE ANYONE IMPLY OTHERWISE" and Tim and Babs are like "well I mean it's very unlikely and I don't want it to be true but he could. He's an unstable man. Who knows. Gotta approach this objectively and objectively Bruce kind of sucks", it really says a lot about their respective personalities and relationships. Tim-Babs skeptic alliance. Dick-Cass that's My DAD you guys just don't get it I'm the one who understands him!!! alliance
I am getting extremely nostalgic and would like to collect all my favorite Steph and Cass friendship moments in a post.
I mean why not, that way I can look at them whenever I get nostalgic again.
This is pretty much the moment they became bffs. They'd been hanging out before then and having fun, but it's such a good moment. Cass was expecting that this was when Stephanie would throw in the towel. She knew this experience would be humiliating for Steph, maybe even scary, and just sort of depressing and short lived for Cass and it would lead to Steph not wanting to hang out anymore.
What Cass didn't realize is Stephanie Brown doesn't EVER give up. She literally vomits from fighting so hard and is like "cool let's do this again". She's outclassed, whatever, big deal, isn't she always. It doesn't intimidate her or get her down for a second. Cass realized she can be herself around Stephanie, and Stephanie would never be scared.
This page will always stick with me because it really is like that sometimes. Sometimes you need to laugh about this shit.
Cass was used to people reacting to what she'd been through with pity, discomfort, fear...but Steph just treats her exactly the same. She's not uncomfortable at all. They help each other laugh about the shitty things that have happened to them. This is definitely the first time Cass was able to laugh about her trauma, and it must have been so cathartic for both of them. Steph was seriously down about her Dad but now she's bonding with her friend.
Going back a little earlier just to say Cass is such a little shit and I love her. And she's able to fully unleash this side of herself around Stephanie.
Even before they bonded, Steph REALLY looked up to Cass, like she thought she was so cool and talented. And hallucinated her to motivate herself (it was more like a metaphor) which is very funny foreshadowing to Cass' future of hallucinating her.
(She's so sad that Cass doesn't talk to her :( it's ok you'll convert her)
(She's so sad that Cass doesn't talk to her :( it's ok you'll convert her)
She also just. really wants Cass to tell her she's good at superheroing. That she did a good job.
What's kind of tragic is Cass had trouble believing with Steph and telling her she did well when it came to her abilities, and we never got to see that fully resolved. It's something I would have loved to see explored more, if they hadn't exiled Cass after Steph became Batgirl and then fuckin' erased them both from continuity for a long while, but I'll get to that later.
BUT:
Cass is so clearly annoyed at Bruce here it's incredible, she doesnt get annoyed with him that often, especially compared to other members of the batfamily, but she really is like "fuck off Dad that's my bff" here.
Also "you have become...friendly" sounds like Bruce is implying something and having a homophobia moment but I think he actually just genuinely doesn't understand the concept of friends in this era of his characterization.
The last bit is the one of the most suggestive Steph Cass panels of all time. I fully understand why it launched a ship even if as I've said it's (surprisingly given my usual ever present lesbian/yuri goggles) (yuri goggles just sounds better ok) not something that matters to me! I just want them to live together and go on adventures forever I don't care about the rest. But I appreciate this panel still. Like wow Steph.
So Cass defies Batman's orders!!! And this issue is just so cute. First of all, Steph finally wins at rooftop tag using Cass's compassion against her.
Cass is having such a good time too. Never has a girl been so happy to be tackle kicked.
Steph being like "hell yeah I fucked first" is so funny of her. But another point where they're just able to be there for each other and comfort each other about their dads. And I will never forgive this era's version of Bruce for firing her shortly after her dad died, not replying when Steph asked if he didn't trust her because of her dad, and even rubbing his death in her fucking face saying "sorry about your dad" right after he fired her" fuck offfff
But friendship isn't about no drama. When Steph panics and get in trouble in her attempt to save Cass (like honestly she was distracted by being happy you were alive Cass!) Cass decides she agrees with Bruce. This makes sense from Cass' side of things, she has a VERY strict and high standard for competence and Steph is just so far from her in terms of skill and temperament I think she doesn't really get that 'made a mistake' doesn't equal 'helpless and hopeless and can't get better".
She's always been a prodigy, and surrounded by prodigies, so dealing with someone who does have to struggle so much isn't something she's used to. And she's always very honest and blunt about her feelings. Above all, she is genuinely worried for Steph. She doesn't want her to get hurt.
And Steph is of course heartbroken that even her best friend agrees. That someone she looks up to so much and whose support means so much to her doesn't believe in her as a superhero. She really lashes out here, Cass hurt her so she says what she know will hurt her back, denying that Bruce is Cass's dad. She knows how much this hurts because she knows Cass wishes she had a "good" dad much like she herself does.
I don't think Steph ever exactly wanted a father figure from Bruce is a simplistic sort of sense, and she was all too willing to not listen and to tell him to fuck off when he told her she wasn't good enough...but some part of her was very desperate for his approval deep down, because Batman was her hero when she was little, the one who put her dad in jail so he couldn't ruin her and her Mom's lives anymore. Getting Batman's approval, support, even affection means proof she's not like her dad, the ultimate victory over him.
But she is very aware Cass thinks of Bruce that way, and she also knows the desperation she feels for his pride and support because she feels it too. So she tries to make Cass feel as bad as Cass made her feel.
The next time they reunite after this is when Steph's Robin, and both basically forgive each other without discussing their fight, because Steph is finally starting to get that approval she craves, and Cass is so happy to see her get it.
Also, Steph saves Cass here, showing how far she's come as a hero!
Steph's so happy :( and once again implying Batman's seal of approval is something she craves because it proves to her she's not like her Dad. And importantly, Cass is super happy for her too. Look at that smile.
They make a good team who can cover for each other's weaknesses in this issue. Cass doesn't know how to calm down a scared little girl and is overwhelmed, but Stephanie calms her down.
And when Steph loses her temper, Cass is able to bring her out of it.
WE COULD HAVE HAD MORE OF THIS. WE COULD HAVE HAD IT ALL.
And then we get this heartbreaking moment:
Steph is SO protective of kids and so clearly doesn't want anyone to go through she did. My girl.
BUT WAIT. WE HAVE ANOTHER BATGIRL ROBIN TEAMUP. This one is less well known, it was written after Steph's death, it was from Solo #10 by Damion Scott.
Steph is meeting up with Cass for a training session when she's targeted by a shooter. Cass shows up to rescue her, but then she ends up needing rescuing herself.
WWBD? Like Cass is so obviously the hero Steph admires the most, probably more than Batman, which is so valid of her. It makes sense, like what do Bruce and Tim matter when you've got Cass.
(There's a misprint in the fouth panel where what is clearly meant to be Cass' speech bubble (the second one) comes from Steph instead)
Anyway. unlike last time this happened, Steph actually manages to save Cass! AND she gets much needed validation from her! Cass finally pretty much tells her she did a good job! But Cass also nails something about her--when it comes down to the wire and she's rescuing someone else, Steph tends to get the job done. It's the self preservation part she's less focused on/prone to forgetting, and that's the balance she needs.
But alas. DC decides to throw all of that good Stephrobin material they could have made aside, and we unfortunately get to the part where she gets fired as Robin and then is cruelly and brutally killed off.
When Steph gets fired this time, we don't really get to know how Cass feels about it. Steph runs away before she can respond to the news and Cass is just...sad.
But she is SUPER worried about Steph all through the shitty War Games stuff, like she knows in her bones something's wrong and Steph's in trouble. She's the only one who really searches for her, but when she finds her...
I hate most things to do with War Games, but this part is genuinely heartbreaking and you can see that Horrocks cared a lot about their relationship. And Cass searches for Steph even MORE frantically after this, showing her picture around, every other word out of her in these issues is "where's Steph".
After Steph died, DC seemed to want to mention her as little as possible. Tim was currently grieving ten million other people too, , so we didn't get much insight into what he felt about it at all. But in Batgirl, Cass was an exception, and her grief over Steph was explored consistently
It hurts my heart. And then of course, we have ghost Stephanie saving Cass.
Once they revealed Steph wasn't dead, most fans have decided it means this was a hallucination, but my headcanon was always that Steph was still in a coma when all this happened, on the boundary between life and death, and she really did astral project over to save Cass. What. That doesn't even make the top five weirdest things that have happened to Cass.
(Steph also like, victim-blames herself in this appearance, which I don't think Cass's subconscious would have her do, but is in character for Steph to do, sadly.)
Cass being one of the people Steph looks up to again, even saying she taught her to fight, ugh.
And then later on when Cass is hesitant about talking to Babs after their big fight, she imagines what Steph would say to motivate herself:
Makes me sick. And she'll get SO upset if anyone even mentions Steph.
And then we get to Steph's final ghost appearance in the last two issues of Cass' series.
This page reprogrammed my brain, honestly. My obsession with women carrying women may have started here.
And here's possibly the most heartbreaking Cass panel of all time, and such a good summary of her character and her endless compassion.
Steph understands Cass on such a deep level I can't stand it.
...and unfortunately that's pretty much the end of their significant preboot interactions. Steph's death is revealed to be fake and she comes back to Gotham... but we never see Steph and Cass'reunion and Cass' reaction to Steph not being dead. The only interaction we got was when Cass gave Steph the Batgirl mantle--they did have a cute little teamup, but then we had to deal with the clusterfuck of how OOC it was for Cass to claim she 'fought for [Bruce]" before walking away when she's literally stated the exact opposite.
(It was later contradicted by her activities as Black Bat, and it was revealed that Bruce asked Cass to do this and maybe she was just uh, saying stuff, but that's also OOC because what fucking say does Bruce have over Batgirl. BQM did actually tell me back in the day (I think it was a reddit question thing??? idk, I remember this clearly though) that Cass wouldn't have done it if she didn't agree and I chose to headcanon it was partly Cass' idea because of various other reasons in addition to compassion for Steph (maybe feeling she needed to let go of it after the brainwashing and all that, maybe just feeling she'd like another Bat-related identity) but. okay I'm rambling now)
There's also convergence but considering Cass was so ooc she sincerely threatened to eat Stephanie's hamster (I'm not kidding), it's hard to count that.
But you know. They have gotten to hang out a lot post reboot at least (and even lived together) and now all this history is canon again. So to end this on a less depressing note, and since I've reached tumblr's image limit, here's a cute interaction from Batman Urban Legends #5 and a cute little storyline with them from Wayne Family Adventures.
I didn't get to post all the images I wanted for some parts (mainly the Solo issue), so I might do some seperate posts I'll link here later. But yes, here is my Steph and Cass history to nostalgically look back on.
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Ok so I was super bored at work yesterday and my mind was going wild, so after learning about catboy Damian I started assigning everyone an inner animal (or, let's be real, fursona)
Again, Damian was assigned a cat, Jason and Bruce wolves, and Helena a panther by the actual beast world comics thing…
but what about the rest of them… I must assign animals but will not allow robins or bats that's too easy.
Babs is obviously an owl, bird of prey, associations with intelligence and Athena, can see 360 degrees so they can ~watch from anywhere~
My immediate thought for Steph was a dog, not just bc disturbing way people tend to talk to her like one, but protectiveness, enthusiasm, vicious when provoked… but she needs to be a really stubborn dog… ooh. Ooh!!! Pitbull Stephanie Brown. Does not let go when she sinks her teeth in. I see it.
I also like Lion Steph. It’s the animal she’s been compared to in the comics (heart of a lion), lionesses do a lot of thankless work while the men don't do shit for them, protetctiveness...
I could see Cass as a cat, that would have been my immediate thought if Damian hadn't already taken it, there's even a really cute fic where she turns into a cat.. Catsandra Cain.
(Blackfooted Cat comes to mind, small and unthreatening looking but one of the deadliest and most successful hunters in the world. She could also have been a panther if Helena hadn't taken it already :()
But looking into things... ok, this is a weird choice, BUT...weasels are extremely agile and sneaky, can take down prey ten times their weight, do a funky dance to attack...dancing hunters...hmmmm...
Dick's a monkey. the teen titans 2003 cartoon was correct about this. Mischevious, intelligent, flexible and acrobatic, look out when they're mad, chatter a lot...
Tim I could see as a crow? Intelligent, extremely observant, and can even memorize human faces and follow people, has a network of allies...they're also symbiotic with wolves, so that could go with Bruce
(I was mentioning this to my partner and they were like "dangerous crow boy with Superboy" (I've mentioned Tim/Kon is a popular ship to them) but which animal is he" and I was like "oh Kon's a peacock for sure")
My partner said Alfred was a secretary bird and they're so right.
I'm having a hard time pinning down Kate (tempted to just choose a really goth animal but. Bats are off the table, I assigned Tim crows/ravens, cats and owls are taken...not too much left). Maybe a horse? Riding off to war, serving others, strong and fast...yeah, a war horse could work. Feel free to chime in with other suggestions.
Duke I still don't know well enough, (his costume gives me canary vibes though?), chime in with suggestions.
Suletta Mercury (from Mobile Suit Gundam the Witch from Mercury): 2, 5, 25
B.B. (from Of the Killer Anthology): 25
Hopefully that's not too many questions
Nah I love answering questions! Sorry this is so late, took some thinking.
1. Why do you like or dislike this character?
oh man, it's so hard to sum up all the things I like about her. Her un-ending compassion, her body-language ability having so many cool applications, her struggles with language and her unique way of seeing the world thanks to having such an unusual childhood, the way she rebelled against everything she knew and made herself a hero, seeing her experience so many things for the first time, her struggles reconciling with a childhood where she was forged to be a weapon and her identity issues because of that, her complex relationship with a father who abused her but who she still loves on some level, what a huge badass she is, her belief in and embodiment of redemption, her crunchy relationships especially Steph and Babs...lmao I could go on forever.
2. Favorite canon thing about this character?
I can't really choose, honestly. I'd say her compassion and belief in redemption in general, I guess? But a favorite canon fact about her is that she likes shitty soap operas and talk shows. "Ya bet your sweet patootie baby".
5. What's the first song that comes to mind when you think about them?
Well, I made an entire AMV about her to Invincible by Pat Benetar back in the day, so it's that one!
I also have a playlist I did for Cass back in the day, where I have a bunch of songs associated with her. There's an updated and revised version up on Spotify and qobuz, but it would be weird for me to encourage Spotify use since I've ditched it...wait, I discovered I can, in fact, share qobuz playlists. Take a look at it here!
Dancer in the Dark by Rasmus and All This and Heaven Too by Florence + The Machine tend to come to mind first outta those.
Suletta
2. Favorite canon thing about this character?
The fact that she's so shy and awkward and a little naive, but the second she sees Guel raise his hand to Miorine, or any other kind of injustice, she's running forward to slap him down. I also love her relationship with both Miorine and her sister.
5. What's the first song that comes to mind when you think about them?
I mean, saying her anime opening would probably be cheating, and then there's Once in a Lifetime by the Talking Heads because of this AMV... oh god and while I was looking for THAT amv I remembered about Boyfriend by Dove Cameron and the associated amv...
but for a more serious answer, I wracked by brain and the first one that fit was Shine by Vienna Teng.
25. What was your first impression of this character? How about now?
I thought she was very cute, fun, and badass. I still think that, but also really feel for all the pain she went through, and admire how she overcame it. Also she's a disaster bi, love that for her.
B.B.
25. What was your first impression of this character? How about now?
That she was very funny and seems very qualified to handle all the weird shit she's getting into. My impression now is pretty much the same.
