let's take a look at how the st4 epilogue foreshadows character arcs & pairings in st5 ☆
so if all these scenes in s4 (+ many more) managed to reveal something about the direction certain characters were heading in s5.....
why haven't we seen anything about this?
maybe this is my bias talking but this is just pure interesting to me because I think the byler scene in the st4 finale is arguably the most emphasized and the most blatant case of foreshadowing out of all of these scenes, not just relating to will's connection to vecna but also mike's insistence on killing him together.
we don't have any byler scenes from the teaser (disregarding the crumb of them biking holly to school). but we know that they have been filming together for majority of the season based on leaks, pap photos, and just piecing things together.
it only makes sense that byler has a storyline together this season based on the s4 epilogue foreshadowing alone, and mike's whole speech to will that they should start working together as a team. but it's a little odd that we haven't seen any confirmation of this through the promotional material, unlike the rest of the shots from the teaser. byler is having a plot together, whether people like it or not, and it's only a question as to why the teasers are trying to keep this a secret to us. (spoiler alert: it's for shock value and being treated as a plot twist)
also — isn't it weird how mileven doesn't have a solo scene together in the s4 epilogue??? 🤔
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why? well, because will has given up on any chances that he might be with mike in season 4. i do believe that if byler is going to be endgame, it will be because of mike pursuing will.
will is not going to try to get with mike romantically, not when he thinks mike still loves eleven and vice versa. 12 year old will was really to kill himself to save the town that hated his guts, he is never gonna put himself before others, especially not someone who is now his sister and has saved his life.
if byler is happening, it will be because mike decides to make the first move.
i think the painting discussion will happen in episode 1, i think it will lead to mileven breaking up and both el and mike will connect the dots to will's feelings. next two episodes, mike's attention gonna stay on will as he tries to figure out his feelings for him.
maybe will comes out in between 1-3 episodes, this will affirm his sexuality to mike. i think in between those moments, when holly disappears and both of them are stuck in the circumstances with each other, there will be a heat of the moment, where mike tries to kiss will.
and maybe they get interrupted? or will tries to pull back because he just cannot comprehend that mike is actually returning his feelings, the feelings that will has made peace with himself to keep and do nothing about.
oh i think it would be so angsty, i think there will be a lot of pining and yearning up until the last (two) episode. ngl i do think it will be dramatic, either will getting vecna-d or mike, and they confess their feelings to each other then. crazy together, right?
or maybe before the final battle? where both of them don't know if they will survive it? how mike will tell will that he chooses him. how their love isn't some coincidence, or god forbid, fate.
no, their love is the fruit of their will, their choice. mike will fight for this love, he is fighting for it, and both of them will not gonna die, because mike will bring his best friend, the love of his life, to the other end of the war. and they will spend the rest of their lives choosing each other, loving each other. oh and it's gonna be so sweet, and will gonna stand on his tippy toes and kisses mike. or maybe he will grab mike by the shoulders to pull him down, pull him closer and kisses him.
and it's gonna be so, so beautiful. mike will hold will by the waist, lift him up until his feet barely touch the ground. it will be soft, but it also be hungry, and... desperate. because they don't want their first kiss to be their last, but if it does, they're gonna savor every moment, every touch. swallowing each other's breath.
and maybe either lucas or dustin will pull a harry potter and scream "OI, IS THIS REALLY THE TIME, WE HAVE A THREE-HEADED MONSTER COMING OUR WAY!!!"
I feel ridiculous still holding on to a smidgen of hope. But... There is still a little bit of hope. I know, I know... 🤦🏻♀️ I'm getting my hopes up again. But listen to this: It's not going to be that easy for Will to just show up and have the upper hand against Vecna just like that after the coming out scene. I know Kali and El will be there, but listen. Unless the Duffers are going with lazy writing, which... is possible, after what we all witnessed in volume 2, it won't be that easy. No. Vecna is going to put up a fight against Will, he's not going to allow him to get through that easily when he's so close to achieving his plan. The fact that now Will has removed his shame around his queerness and accepted himself and knows the others accept him, doesn't mean he is going to immediately have the upper hand. And there is still the fact that Will hasn't been fully honest. He did lie about his feelings in season 4 with the painting to Mike's face so he could help him with his relationship with El. This to me means that there is still unresolved baggage around him and Mike. And these unresolved feelings will come up. Mike and Will need to have a conversation. And I just feel that that painting is still going to come up. It is going to. Because it was the gift the Duffers gave Noah when the show wrapped. That painting is important still. It may be Mike's true realization moment that the one Will was in love with is him (forget what the Duffers said in that interview... Mike couldn't have known for sure... Please).
Anyway... What I mean is that there could be a plot twist in which Vecna still gets a hold of Will, through his unresolved feelings for Mike (you CANNOT expect me to believe that this was just a simple "crush" that showed Will he's gay and that was it. No. This boy has been in love with Mike for 10+ years. You don't get over that in a day and a half. Heck, you don't even get over a simple crush just like that.) Vecna will take hold of Will for a hot moment there, and when all appears to be lost, it is Mike's words, Mike's love for Will that pull him out of the dark and allow Will to do what he must, and the team is finally able to defeat Vecna. Mike would have to be honest in that moment, and express his own feelings for Will. Let him know he feels the same.
I don't know. It might be the plot twist. It just a possibility that's still on the table.
THAT SAID. The Duffers are handling this spectacularly bad.
and when the st5 trailer starts with little s1 will byers in the shed looking up behind him as the light bulb shines brighter and brighter — but the shot cuts to a wider view, showing vecna stood in front of will, who drops his gun and the ‘ST5’ screen pops up with the clatter …
ok I know everyone is posting their thoughts about the teaser but I have a lot of findings that I haven't seen many people talk about and would love to share my two cents on !! so many dots have been connecting for me and I really just wanted a place to write everything down / make a few predictions. I'll be skipping over scenes that are pretty self-explanatory and that I don't have any commentary on — these are just what I find most interesting !
as always a warning for potential st5 spoilers. I'll be talking a bit about leaks later on in the post so if that's something you don't want to see please turn away!!
1 -> does anyone remember when the duffers shot-listed st5 with funkos..... well I am extremely confident that these scenes are connected ! for one, all of the characters are the same: will, el, nancy, robin — joyce is on the other side of the room on the intercom — so I am pretty sure that these scenes will take place around the same time. ALSO, in the video with the funkos, the duffers said that they had to pan the camera to end on will, and that eleven says that there are "too many [of something ?]" sorry for not attaching the video — I dug so hard for it and couldn't find it, only the picture, but if I find it I will add it so you can watch it for yourself and see what the hell I'm talking about
earlier on in the scene, mike mentions the fact that a "burn" is commencing. I think this has something to do with the gates/tunnels and/or the demodogs spilling into hawkins again. the gang is probably planning to burn something so that the demodogs or whatever monster is out there won't be able to attack hawkins any further. (this could also be about the military, but I think this is less likely) this is probably why el says that there are "too many" in the scene, as perhaps halfway throughout the plan they realize that they have underestimated the sheer amount of monsters they have to kill and things go south fast.
what I find most interesting about this scene is the fact that they have to pan to WILL.
if you notice in the background of the scene, will appears completely OUT OF IT, eyes rolled back like he's having a vecna vision, or like during s2 when the mind flayer was controlling him via true sight. we know that we eventually get a close up of will in this scene because of this moment later on in the teaser....
(you can tell it's the radio station from the couch)
basically, I'm like 99% sure these scenes take place one after the other and that while they are trying to 'burn' the demodogs/tunnels/whatever, will passes out — maybe because he's still connected to the hive mind and the pain becomes too much. another one of my guesses is that during this burn, will has a vision of some sorts and passes out because of it. the latter theory is only if will isn't still connected to the hivemind, but I think it's obvious he still is.
2 -> I don't really see anyone talking about this scene but I think it is pretty blatant that he is at school here. there's some girls with backpacks in the background and it just looks very school-esque to me. I don't know why but I just wanted to point it out because no one has said anything about it and will being in school again just makes me happy lol. maybe he's sensing henry because of the fact that he also attended hawkins high? OR, since I'm assuming this happens after he and mike drop holly off at school, he senses that something bad happened to her?
3 -> the date on lucas' watch says thursday, november 2nd, 2:12 pm. the official synopsis of st5 stated that the season was set during the week of nov 6, so I'm guessing the series will progressively build up to end on that day since it was the day everything started. maybe I'm reading this wrong so please correct me if I am — but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense because november 2nd in 1987 fell on a monday, not a thursday. I remember when ross first posted this still onto his instagram, people thought it said thursday november 12th, which made a whole lot more sense because that day actually fell on a thursday. but now that we got a closer look at it, it looks very much like a 2 and not a 12, so I'm just weirdly confused??? like what is going on. unless I'm blind and the TH is not actually a TH or means something else entirely. just something I thought was worth mentioning.
4 -> okay first of all,,, this shot is so fucking insane and looks amazing wtf. but I have many thoughts !!! honestly, I am not a super big 'will has powers' truther, but this is just too crazy for me to ignore. not even considering the fact that he's able to jump like that, I think the imagery and symbolism here is pretty undeniable.
I'm like 99% sure after will jumps he doesn't make the jump and falls from the tree like we saw in the bts trailer from last year, which begs the question — how the hell did the demogorgon not catch him??? I think it's pretty telling that the lighting strikes and lines up exactly with will's figure. I don't know if this makes a whole lot of sense but ... isn't there the whole stigma that during thunderstorms you're not supposed to climb trees/be in high places because there's a chance you can get struck by lighting? I'm not saying that this is necessarily happening to will, but him being struck by lighting and then being given some kind of electrokinetic power to fend off the demogorgon kind of makes sense. it would explain how he was able to escape such a brute force and why he was able to talk to joyce in the lights in s1.
5 -> end barrier to the upside down iktr. will byers created hawkins in the ud truthers RISE. will is essentially vecna's "builder" according to the leaked st5 promotional deck so I feel like this isn't too far fetched!!
6 -> maybe my 2nd favourite scene that the teaser has given us. it tells so much but so little. I have so much to say.
let me just start with MAX!!!!! If they are doing what I think they are doing I am going to scream my head off because this is everything I've ever wanted.... something that I wanted to see in s5 ever since 2022 was lucas dragging max's unconscious body out of the hospital so she can be included in whatever plan that they are doing. I'm pretty sure that this actually takes place at the hospital, given the candy striper outfit vickie (?) is wearing, but it is still interesting to me nonetheless. the demodogs have attacked the hospital, and lucas is defo determined to get max out of there in one piece. he will not leave her behind. lumax 😭😭😭😭
I am 90% sure robin is also in this scene. a while ago we got pap photos of lucas (in the same outfit) and robin at the hospital together.
this is probably the scene they were filming that day! it just makes a lot of sense considering the fact that vickie is also here. vickie joining the supernatural plot UGH I have prayed for times like this.
7 -> one of my most anticipated scenes OH MY GOD. this is genuinely such a cool scene and I can't wait to see how it plays out in canon WOW. so.... this is likely the scene where the demogorgon/vecna attacks the wheeler house and when holly gets taken and karen gets injured. fear not I do not think miss karen is dying!!! there were reports of karen getting absolutely MAIMED by a demogorgon that leaked in early feb, but she apparently makes it out okay. but I think that ted is defo a goner in this scene given the way we've had scenes of holly and karen looking out in anguish. plus it would up the stakes a little bit and it just feels like something the duffers would do.
8-> robin with blood on her neck..... she's wearing the same outfit from when she was on the farm & at the hospital so she either gets a lil injured or something goes DOWN in either of those locations. this either happens after the hospital attack scene with lucas + max OR after the barn scene where joyce defends everyone with an axe from a demogorgon. something bloody is DEFO happening in both of those scenes tho.
9 -> is this not the mindflayer........
10 -> first of all RENT IS DUE natalia is acting her ass off here. second of all this is definetly connected to the holly/karen scene and I think I may have connected the Dots about everything.
okay so.... nancy and el arrive at the wheeler house at some point to save face. nancy is wearing the same outfit here that she was wearing in the scene of her at the sink. current running Theory is that holly gets taken by vecna to the upside down/his mindscape and ted dies and karen gets SUBSTANTIALLY injured. nancy probably runs over to her and tries to help her, getting her mom's blood all over her. but I do not think karen dies and here's why!
we see a scene of nancy and mike in the hospital from the bts teaser. you can tell it's the same because there is the same antiseptic, sterile green lighting. they probably rush karen to the hospital and nancy goes with, and she has a scene breaking down near the sink. then we have a scene of nancy and mike on karen's beside while she's unconscious. I don't think karen dies because there's no way they're just looming over karen's dead body in the hospital — she has to be unconscious/ in critical condition otherwise they wouldn't be there. not to mention all the leaked reports that said karen was alive but heavily injured.
11 -> SHOT OF THE DECADE PEOPLE. I have yapped about this scene SOOOOO MUCH on here already but it is just genuinely breathtaking and I love everything about it. the way will looks like he's in genuine defeat and is giving up on something. that or exhaustion. his wet hair. THE FACT THAT HE'S SO SWEATY??? THE TEARS ON HIS FACE????? THE BLUE LIGHT TAKING OVER THE FRAME AS HE ACCEPTS DEFEAT?????? Im normal I'm normal Im normal
I have a few thoughts and possibilities for this scene....
IF they are 'burning' the hive mind again — another exorcism has to take place in order to save will. maybe this is why the scene is SOOO red, because there's so much heat. perhaps we were wrong about loverslakegate all along and the reason why will's abnormally wet is because he's just so sweaty because of the heat. and perhaps mike is there during the exorcism which explains why he is also wet. this makes a LOT of sense to me because we have the scene of the smoke climbing up the radio tower that I mentioned earlier that looks EXTREMELY similar to when the mindflayer was burned out of will in s2.
the blue light is reminding me SO MUCH of police/ambulance lights. I don't know if I fully believe that will is staying with the wheelers (this is a whole other can of worms that I will hopefully try to explain in a later post) but it makes a little sense if maybe he were there with nancy and el when they arrive at the wheelers to save karen and holly? If he's lived with karen for the past year and a half he'd probably have gotten to know her a lot better and would be reasonably upset at her being injured. maybe he's upset with himself for not being able to save her as he passed out during his vision earlier and therefore looks like he's accepting defeat.
12 -> I have no words. Why is he so terrified. WHY. we all know that max and all the other victims have been frightened in vecna's presence but not like this so WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING TO MAKE WILL REACT LIKE THIS???? I genuinely cannot even wrap my head around a proper theory for this one because I don't know why the hell he would be so scared. On the plus side I think this is the first time we've seen will scream and I am super excited #screamqueenwillbyers
13 -> I don't know if anyone pointed this out already but this is robin's arm 😭😭😭😭 my little lesbian running the squawk and being the radio host oh lord I can't do this.
14 -> will is definetly some sort of spy again because I don't know any other reason for this scene lol. ALSO. the transition to the tunnels? absolute cinema. this just makes a lot of sense to me because we know will had true sight in s2 and was able to see through to the tunnels — so whatever is happening here is definetly connected. ALSO! we know that robin, lucas, and mike help the kids escape the military base using the tunnels (from leaks and the script that maya accidentally posted) it's kind of hard to see but i'm pretty sure lucas is running through the tunnels in that scene with two of the kids he is trying to save.
it's worth noting that I think the above scene happens in the tunnels and lucas has blood on him so maybe he's not able to save the kids....
15 -> this scene is very interesting to me as well. first of all — max parallels! second — I think this is at the turnbow mansion. some background info in case anyone doesn't know: the turnbows are supposedly a wealthy family who own the farm. derek is their son. I have a theory that vickie is related to them too but I do not have the time to explain that here lol. my current theory is that the turnbows have something in the house that connects to the tunnels/the gang needs to get a hold of.
we know that erica has dinner there during episode three called 'the turnbow trap'. several other bts photos were posted of the characters in the turnbow's basement. MY prediction is that they use erica as a distraction to sneak into the turnbow's basement. derek turnbow supposedly has a crush on erica (from leaks) and so it makes sense that they would know each other and that erica could get herself over for dinner. during this dinner she's able to distract / sedate (?) them to give the other characters the opportunity to sneak into the house. maybe she fails in sedating derek which is how he gets wrapped into everything soon after.
16 -> WILL'S LEG SQUIRMING. HE'S SO OBVIOUSLY IN PAIN OHHHHH BROTHER. NEVER BEATING THE NOT CONNECTED TO THE HIVE MIND ALLEGATIONS
17 -> this fuckass tree. anyway. It's kind of already widely thought out that while the party is doing their solo-investigative-mission in the woods, will gets a flashback to the time he fell from the tree in the upside down. and while I believe this is true, I think once the boys snap him out of his trance he will brush them off and pretend that he didn't see anything. why? I don't really have a genuine reason but I can picture him not wanting them to worry about him/maybe it's something that he doesn't necessarily want to share.
however we know that he goes investigating the same tree later on in the night. I think he originally starts this exhibition as wanting to get a better look at it on his own, but I think robin may catch him sneaking out of the radio station and decide to tag along with him. it might be easier for will to talk to her/explain things to her because he isn't so close with her and therefore his words might hold less weight. does that make sense ??? I don't know. his past is a touchy subject so it might be something he doesn't feel comfortable talking about yet with the boys. I think this would open up the perfect chance for robin and will to start talking to each other and their eventual duo dynamic.
anyway! those are most of my thoughts from the teaser that I feel haven't really been said. I mostly just wanted to write everything down so I can get all of my predictions straight — so let's hope some of these are true??? if there are some things in here which don't make any sense/you would like some clarification on PLEASE let me know, I have been following production sooooo closely in the past year so I might have just assumed a lot of people knew things/ it was common knowledge and didn't explain well enough. thank you for reading and defo add ur thoughts if you have any!!!!
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Omg would love love loooooove your thoughts on how vickie/rovickie plays into everything going on this season. Obv we’ve got so little info on her/them rn that a good chunk of it is gonna be speculation but idec because even your speculation is great
hi anon!
firstly thank you! I am so glad that you asked this because I was actually cooking up a post about this awhile ago that I never actually finished... but nonetheless a lot of my points from there have still stood the test of time.
warning: st5 spoilers ahead!
vickie is probably one of the most mysterious characters of the show lol. on the surface level she seems like such a random character, given her extremely limited screen time and lack of presence in the series. but I refuse to believe that she was just an addition to the show to be robin's love interest. they obviously built her character up for something big since she was introduced in s4, not s5. it would be such a massive missed opportunity for her not to be involved in the supernatural/military plot early on.
my main theory is that vickie is going to be related to the turnbow family in some capacity, most likely their teenage daughter.
who are the turnbows? the turnbows are a wealthy family who own the mansion that serves as a prevalent location this season. they also own the farm! their son, derek turnbow, seems to have a lot of scenes with the main cast this season.
(peep robin having scenes with him)
so — how is vickie related to him?
I first kind of entertained the idea as a joke to myself because they both have red hair, but I think they might actually be siblings 😭 not saying that they have to be, it just would seem like a wasted opportunity not to. there was a stand-in spotted at the turnbow mansion set with short red hair and I can't help but wonder if it is vickie's double. the same person is visible in the dinner scene with erica during the 'turnbow trap'.
like — why could this not be vickie???? it would be so perfect and they wouldn't have to introduce a new character. from the new teaser we got it looks like erica at some point sedates the family as a part of the 'trap', but unless this character has to die, I don't see why it couldn't be vickie. I am insane but I am free.
my current theory about the turnbow trap that I discussed here (point #15) is that the turnbows have something in their house/on the farm that the gang needs to get a hold of, which is why they need erica to distract them. if vickie is related to the turnbows, because of robin's crush & friendship with her, she might be able to squeeze a little bit of information out of vickie which will help the gang piece together the puzzle of what the turnbow's really have going on.
we know that derek gets taken by the military at some point based on leaks + the general gist of the season. if I'm not mistaken, it was rumoured that the military wanted to experiment on children and give them powers like el. however, robin, mike, and lucas seem to have a plot this season where they rescue these children and help them escape using the tunnels under the farm.
maya hawke accidentally leaked a st5 script which, when deciphered, featured her character talking to children in a tunnel, which is how we know she is connected to this as well.
anyway, my point is — derek being at the farm with robin kind of opens up the opportunity for a lot of rovickie moments, if the two happen to be siblings. vickie might be worried about her brother because of him being taken by the military and confides in robin about this. robin, as lovestruck and headstrong as she is, might end up letting vickie in on all the supernatural things going on in hawkins. this is how she and robin get closer and begin their romance.
because... lets be honest, vickie is DEFO involved in the supernatural plot at some point. in the new teaser, we see a girl in a candy striper uniform with lucas and max in the hospital, hiding as demodogs infiltrate the area. again, we have no confirmation on if this is vickie or not, but she has short red hair and earrings which is once again a vickie staple.
I think it's worth noting that we ALSO see nancy in a candy striper uniform sometime this season as she presumably ends up doing some detective work at the hospital. but I don't think that she is going alone. robin probably comes with nancy, as seen in the bts photo the broadcast channel posted on insta awhile ago, not as a candy striper but maybe just to offer moral support or something. my point is, both nancy and vickie being candy stripers brings about a lot of opportunities for some potential vickie & nancy content and, obviously, rovickie.
(i think it's also worth mentioning that the broadcast channel said that amybeth took the picture of maya)
I talked about this again in the teaser analysis I posted today (number #6) but I'll just reiterate it here: robin is probably in the scene with lucas, max, and vickie in the hospital. she was spotted with lucas outside of the hospital on the day that they were filming the demodog attack scene. it makes sense that the two would be there together as robin actually seems to have a plot with vickie this season, and she ALSO has a plot with lucas (and mike) in the tunnels.
also just imagine a scene of robin and vickie embracing each other while some shit goes down in the hospital. I love gay people
I am just realizing this now, but if robin is with lucas at the hospital, it would mean that the two of them and mike split up at some point. this makes sense because from other shots from the season, we see mike protecting the kids and with joyce and will. mike probably takes a lil leader role and has to protect all the kids by himself while robin and lucas unearth whatever is going on at the hospital with vickie.
the thing that gives me doubt sometimes is that the duffers somehow constantly manage to work in new characters into the story when their arcs could have combined with pre-existing characters. also, when amybeth posted her wrap dump for s5, she posted a picture of her chair, which only had the name 'vickie' on it. the thing that bugs me is that every other character on the show has a chair with both their first and last name. if vickie really was a turnbow, they would have likely given her a chair with 'vickie turnbow' on it unless they're cheap and just reusing the one from s4. I think this makes me the most angry out of everything because even if vickie isn't a turnbow — they aren't even going to give her a last name ? lol
but vickie will defo have a role this season. I don't know how important it will be, but it'll be something. to end this all off, when the duffer's introduced amybeth's character in s4 they said this:
this was a lot longer than I anticipated but I hope it makes sense! as always if the dots aren't connecting for you/anyone needs a bit more clarification on some things just comment or send an ask and I'll do my best to explain it better lol. I love connecting the little details of this show and finally getting the full picture after so long, so if anyone has any other thoughts or theories they want me to check out lmk!!
warning: potential spoilers for st5! proceed at your own risk
so this person on twitter apparently found matt duffer's pinterest account, which, if real, poses some SUPER interesting information about st5.
a list created 1 year ago with pins similar to what vecna's mindscapes look like titled "max world"?
a list created 1 year ago titled "st spinoff" with various vintage/50s inspired towns?
not to mention all these lists...
i am highly suspicious of the authenticity of this account because i doubt matt duffer would spoil some elements of st5 on a pinterest account literally called 'matt duffer' that is easily available to everyone and is super easy to find, but then again.... this account has been running actively for at least four years. i doubt someone wanting to impersonate him would keep the gag running that long. (that, and, it has taken a while to find this account. i think an impersonator would give up the shtick after they realize this is reaching virtually no one)
i think i have some evidence to back up that this is actually matt duffer though.
in 2020, around the time when they would have been starting production on st4, the account made this list called 'scar'
i have a feeling this could have been matt visualizing scars on fred, or maybe even victor creel. fred has a scar that travels along his left cheek, though it's not as dramatic as these pins.
could be victor because of the one with the eye though.
another pinterest account, michael maher jr, was also featured as a collaborator on some of these lists (the account follows matt duffer's as well) and has some interesting lists as well. i think it's worth noting that this guy is literally an emmy nominated concept artist that has worked with stranger things before. this is his official instagram, if you'd like to check it out.
i don't really want to delve into this guy's account because these lists could contain some inspo for other projects that he's doing but you're welcome to view it on your own.
this just begs the question: why would an impersonator go all these lengths to impersonate a concept artist ON TOP of matt duffer and run it consistently for four years?? it seems like too much work.
obviously, take everything you see here with a grain of salt. this could also very well be matt duffer trolling with us. but i think it's worth checking out!!!!
edit: please do not take this super seriously, he has harringrove saved on one of the boards lol
