#selfstrugglefighter

I´m currently brainrotting over Fate again and fell especially back in love with the tragedy of Saul and Andreas (who i ship btw; like how could someone not ;)

That they were very close is canon, period. But there are also some aspects that may be not ofiicially canon but which I love-hate.

For example, in the 2nd book "Lighting the Fire" it says, that Andreas asked Saul to watch over Sky like "you always do for me". (I don´t know the exact wording, since I haven´t read it in English but in German, so I hope you´ll forgive my spelling mistakes)

And in an interview Andreas´ actor has stated that Andreas doesn´t hate Saul because he killed him (or attempted to) since he a person who takes things like that personal. Ken also says, that Andreas considers emotional bounds as weakness (as we can see in the series) and that he struggles with showing affection.

My question for you would be, why do you think that is?

Why does he have such a - i don´t wanna say hatred but i can´t think of another word - towards Silva?

And against the popular opinion that he was brainwashed, why do you think he follows Rosalind without a question?

I hope I don´t overrun you with this, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

I, for example, think that Andreas is hurt ´cause saul didn´t blindly trust him with his orders, since he maybe knew from Rosalind that Aster Dell was the Blood Witch hotspot. I know, it´s a bit contradictory to the theory that Andreas doesn´t take anything personal, but people (and especially feelings) are contradictory.

Sorry if I overwhelmed you with all of that. I didn´t mean to, it´s just something I think about and struggle to find answers to. So I thought it would be easier if I talk to someone who (hopefully) gets my point.

Anyway, love have a wonderful day and I hope to hear from you

Best Wishes :)

idk if you realized when you hit send this would absolutely make my week! on a Monday no less, thank you!!! I loved hearing your thoughts and please feel free to share more! Andreas, ˚♬ ﾟwhat a man, what a man, what a man ♫⋆｡♪ ₊˚♬ ﾟ 

Because of your message I went back and watched the Ken interview (god I love him he cares so much about his characters) and to your point, I think it's fascinating that Ken says in one question "Andreas doesn't take anything personally, even Saul ‘killing’ him," and then in another question he says that is favorite scene to film was the sword scene, the line "I don't know whose fucking piece of shit is, but it's not mine."

Hello??? SIR! That is as personal as you can GET, insulting the fuck out of Sky's/Saul's sword. I personally interpret that line as Andreas talking about Sky, not just the sword, the "not mine, also a piece of shit [who wears an apron]."

I watched to the vid a couple times bc he mumbles a bit but something occurred to me that never did before, he plays Andreas as not taking it personal that Saul tried to stop him (aka he knew Aster Dell was wrong but he did it anyway) because he was loyal and obedient enough for Rosalind he really was prepared—even expected—to "die" for the cause.

BUT

As long as I've been in this fandom I've never considered that there's nothing in canon that would indicate Andreas expected Saul to be the one to take in Sky. I now think that Andreas had full expectations that someone else would raise Sky, specifically NOT Saul.

Because Ken says "Andreas was worried about how sensitive baby Sky was, so one of the reasons he could justify abandoning him was that he didn't want sensitive baby Sky to grow up in Andreas' violent, military-esque world." However, part of him hoped that Sky would grow up and get stronger and "unbreakable," and when he realizes that no, Saul is the one who raised him, "weak, sensitive Saul," he's fucking furious. All of the "I want what's best for my son uWu" goes out the window when he realizes that Saul Silva is the one who raised Sky instead of someone more tough. And I have to assume he had picked out someone to raise Sky (where is his mom? shhhh don't ask too many worldbuilding questions in this universe) but for some reason that message never got across, whether things happened to fast for him to ask that person, or maybe Saul just ignored his wishes (I could see him doing that, he's honestly moralistic to a fault, I could see him twisting around "Andreas wants this other person to raise Sky, someone innocent and out of the picture, but I deserve this punishment, I deserve to pay penance for 18+ years bc I killed this man [sorry I digress]).

So when Andreas realizes that it's actually weak, sensitive Saul that raised Sky into "a useless piece of shit that's not mine," that's where we get the rage. It DOES get personal.

I think 90% of his hatred comes from Saul usurping his role as Sky's father and not making him to be whatever Andreas’ definition of tough is.

(cut to the scene where Marco asks Saul if Sky has any of Andreas' bloodlust and Saul, extremely detachedly, saying no, he intentionally tried to raise Sky to be more compassionate and “stamp it out of him” or w/e)

I think the other 10% comes from just plain bitterness. He let Saul “kill” him without being able to retaliate for 16 damn years. He had to admit to himself that he chose the leader who doesn’t hesitate to tell him he’s going to “die” and go undercover for probably 40% of his life by the time he shows back up end of season 1. Farah would never ask that of Saul.

And to be fair I don't even think Ken is wrong talking out of both sides of his mouth, agreeing with your point 100% that Andreas just IS that contradictory!! Andreas can say he doesn't take anything personally while also going and getting himself killed because he is so emotionally attached to Beatrix. He absolutely "takes it personally" that Roz won't send a search party so he goes out against her orders and promptly dies. He doesn't care that Saul killed him but he DOES care that weak/emotional Saul raised his son. He hates Sebastian’s guts presumably because Basti was always “following Saul around like a sick puppy,” hello, jealous your crush is getting attention from another guy much??? Between Roz & Andreas, Rosalind is the only one that truly doesn’t take things personally (except blood witches maybe but both sides had decent points and I wish s2 had spent more time fleshing them both out).

Okay whew I hope you enjoyed me rambling about Saundreas, it’s been too long since I did so and I guess I had a lot pent up 😅

So for the second part of your question,

Personally I don’t ascribe to the theory Andreas was brainwashed; I guess I can see why some people want to give him a better start to his redemption arc but I just see way more evidence that Andreas was fucked up following someone fucked up than brainwashing… oop anyway not what you asked but do you have any thoughts one way or the other?

Anyway, to answer your second question:

All my thoughts on Andreas’ obedience hinge on the line Saul says at Aster Dell before the sword fight, “I know Rosalind gave you a sense of purpose. I know you're indebted to her.”

Record scratch! WHAT is that debt? It implies a blackmail of some kind or at least some pretty strong coercion.

I truly think the writers just forgot about this line bc it would have answered so many questions! I tried to answer this in the fic I wrote between S1 and S2, It Was Just Red, and my answer was that Rosalind helped Andreas’ wife conceive Sky using blood magic. This ascribed to S1’s type of blood witches, which was “humans that can do magic through blood sacrifices,” and that definition was thrown out the window in s2 in favor of “water fairies, but make it blood.”

since you said, you wanted to her more of my thoughts, and I´ll take your word for it, be prepared. I´m spiraling. :)

The first time I watched Fate S1 I wasn´t much of a shipper at all. When I saw the flashback in Ep5, Andreas helping up Saul, my only thought was: "Wait, you know this guy?!" So there wasn´t much to it. While witing on S2 I was checking in the fandom here and there, not permanently just from time to time. So I saw that Silrah was being shipped, and I was like: "With all due respect but no. No. Just no." I really loved their friendship, but that was all it was (to me). Personally, I think you can ship whoever you want to ship (just no real life people and underage characters), but "Silrah" just doesn´t sit right with me. Sorry, not sorry. Then there was "Saundreas" and I thought: "Wait, people are actually shipping THAT?" and I just couldn´t see it (to be fair, it had been quite some time that I finished S1 then, about a year or so).

So when S2 aired, I wasn´t much focussed on Andreas since I liked Saul better and so on. BUT I was wondering if Saul and Sebastian were dating since Silva wanted the girls to bring him to Blackbridge because "Mein Freund wohnt da", meaning "My friend lives there", (fyi in German "Freund" means friend but can also mean boyfriend). No one in Germany really says "my friend" when they´re non romanticly speaking, more so "a friend". So Saul could´ve just said: "Mein Kumpel wohnt da", meaning "My buddy (in Saul´s case "pal") lives there". Little German lesson for beginners ;) Anyway, for half an episode I thought Silva and Sebastian were a couple and considered Andreas smashing Saul´s "boyfriend" through glas a dickmove.

It was my second time watching the show that I thought that "Saundreas" isn´t more unbelievable than "Silrah", I could really see it. However it was after that, that I watched edits of them and was like "There is no fucking way they actually looked at eachother like that." And now I´m here. Between the second and the third watch (which was like a week ago), I didn´t have access to the show anymore, so I couldn´t watch it but NOW I UNDERSTAND. Like, I SEE. ;)

Have you read "Lighting the Fire"? I really like about this book that you can really read anything you want between the lines, like literally everything. Whether you ship "Silrah" or "Saundreas" or whatever. It gives also a nice POV from Saul which is just heartbreaking. One thing I dislike, are a few inconsistencies, like Alfea being the only fairy school in the Otherworld and Saul being more of a follower than a leader (which he is, not as much as Farah but still), he´s basically Farah´s "Andreas", which just seems wrong to me since he questions, yk?

Anyway, in the novel Sky is described as a Andreas without the influence of Rosalind, but we also know that he takes a lot after Silva. I think at some point, when they were young, Andreas must´ve been that caring, loving person (like when we see him with Beatrix) because, let´s be honest, if he were such a dick the whole time they were in school, Saul wouldn´t have had befriended him/let him become close to his heart.

I like to think that they were pretty affectionate with each other and by the time they became the Battalion of Light it became less and less (mostly on Andreas' side (probably to protect what was meaningful to him (eg. Saul)) because even if Andreas might be indebted to Rosalind that doesn´t necessarily mean that he would let her hurt Saul (emotional bounds = weakness). Distancing for protection. At least I like to imagine that. So he slowly became that cocky arrogant bastard we first see (even if a bit of that was always there, obvs).

I also really love Andreas' "I´m sorry" before attacking Saul. It always seemed to me, like he didn´t want it to end like this.

Do you know the quote "In a fight, they´re lethal. Around each other, they melt" ? That pretty much sums it up nicely as to how I would view them as a couple. With enough therapy sessions, of course ;) I think they could´ve been the most wholesome couple of the show, since they are (as I see it) two sides of the same coin.

In canon, there is no way that they were "just mates". Nah, don´t believe that for a second.

I would´ve wished for S3 that when Beatrix comes back from the dead (which we all know she would have) her storyline also involving Saul, like him trying to help her/she asking him for help, relying on him. Maybe growing into this little "family" of the ones Andreas left behind. Although I wish Andreas would come back as well (and the four of them being like a real family), I´m pretty sure it wouldn´t be very realisticly to assume that he´d be brought back as well.

That Skys mother isn´t even mentioned once is a plothole I love beyond measure and reason. I´ve never celebrated the absence of a mother in a fictional story more than this one. It´s just something about the way Saul says "When was the last time YOU saw your son?" is just so...idk. I just find this so lovely, don´t know why.

Also, what is it with this fairy/specialist bond I see some people talk about here? It was never mentioned in the show, right?

That´s all. For now ;) xx

Hello hello hello! Sorry I am so late to replying, this weekend was sooo busy I didn't get a chance to sit down and collect my thoughts 'til now! But I thank youuuu for sharing your thoughts, so interesting how our opinion changes upon rewatches.

PS: Yes I always ship and let ship! It's what ao3 was built on and I love that org to the ends of the earth.

👀 omg the German translation. I love it! Just like how Dean/Cas is canon in the Spanish dub but not English 😂 I will always pick and choose what is and isn't canon based on my own opinions lol. (also too funny, I actually travelled to Germany for my first time last year just to meet up with friends I met through Fate, although I still need to come back for festival season & the Christmas markets!)

I thank you for your rant, it actually made my day.

It´s just nice to talk about these things with other people, so I´ll thank you for that aswell.

Actually, your rant has pushed another thought into my head, another question. That is: Why does Andreas that Saul is weak?

Because I see nothing of that, to be honest. A man who stabbed a person who was (obviously) very important to him and living with that guilt, facing that guilt every single day to come. To acknowlege that, to put this weight on himself. I don´t think that´s weak. How could it be?

Besides being a specialist alone is nothing I´d consider as weak. Volunteering to walk in the danger zone, to stand still and ready when a Burned One is coming your way.

Anyway, I just love Silva. He´s just so wholesome. Sure, he´s flawed, but we all are ;)

So the first time I was watching season 2 I really disliked Andreas, because how dare he to speak of that man like that?!

It just occured to me now (and with that I mean max. 3 days) that Andreas really is displaying a certin toxic masculinity, isn´t he?

I love that he is caring (deep down, but nonetheless) and I do think he has probably had his fair share of trauma even before Rosalind. Is it just me or does he really give off mommy issues-vibes? Because that would probably explain this whole Rosalind thing. Also he gives off daddy issues-vibes, like, complicated (as hell) home sort of thing. And the whole issues about forming emotional bounds, yada yada...

Also you said, that it was mentioned in S2 from what region? in Eraklyon Andreas is? Maybe it´s on me and I didn´t get that or I misunderstood.

Anyway, I honestly just wanted to write a short thank you, but here we are... Soo.. I guess this topic really has me in it´s own chokehold, well.

Hope you can forgive this word-bombing, have a nice evening Lots of love :)

Little fun question: Would you consider Saundreas as semi-cannon?

This response is all over the place, sorry, but thank you again for sharing your thoughts!!! 💕

I think you hit the nail on the head. Andreas' view of strength is from an extremely narrow, toxic masculinity POV. Muscle, bullying (Sebastian), loyal to the point of mass murder, shits on domestic tasks historically performed by women (aprons, childcare).

In the S2 banquet scene, drunk uncle Arthur makes fun of his table manners, something like "let Stella's old etiquette teacher give you a lesson." I guess we don't know that he's from a rural/country area specifically, but definitely less of a cosmopolitan background. I fixated on it because before S2 all my headcanons for Sky & Andreas were loosely based on the OG cartoon, in which Sky is a prince and his father is the king of Eraklyon.

And omg we have a couple lovely Andylind shippers in the fandom, toxic mommy issues or otherwise, bc yeah this dude must have come from a fucked up family to develop the rigid worldview he inflicts on everyone around him.

But yes, deep down he is a sentimental fuckwit, right? He's a bully, and a victim. The toxic shit is a facade for the man he really wants to be, which is father to Beatrix. But at a certain point, when do you become your facade? That's his tragedy, he was an asshole for 99% of his life but he died in that 1%. So which one is truly Andreas? Ahhh that's the question! Very glad to hear you went from "fuck to this guy" to "what's this guy's actual deal????" because SAME

And ohhh Saul. Saul is objectively not weak, physically or otherwise… look, we are seeing this in the world right now, especially in the USA there is a rapidly growing difference between what is right, and what is legal. Your morals, or your orders. Not to equate a silly fairy show with millions of lives being ruined, but I hate that it's way more relevant now than it ever has been.

Saundreas is 100% canon to MEEEEEE!!!

Okay shipping is always a bit subjective but whether that's all platonic or previously romantic is fuzzy, for sure, but these two definitely have more of a history than comrades-in-arms. They're divorced co-parents (I consider murder to be pretty clear cut divorce 😅). I mean the gif in my tumblr header 😭 what is that close talking. Why was Saul all up in Andreas' business about him not being around baby Sky. Why does Andreas say he takes nothing personally and then he smashes Sebastian's face in, Sebastian the one who had a big fat crush on Saul. Why does Andreas recognize Saul's handwriting and directions to his house in 0.2 seconds.

(You know Andreas stepped into Saul's house in s2 and the first thing that hits him is the smell, you know when you walk into your best friend's house and all the memories come flooding back from that smell, and then he burned it to the fucking ground.)

I am so happy that S2 built on the crumbs we got in S1. When I tell you the first time I watched fate and watched the Aster Dell Saundreas scene, the 300k friends-to-lovers-to-enemies fic flashed in front of my eyes clear as day. There was something in Saul's desperation and in the tears filling in Andreas' eyes right as he realizes they're about to draw swords and one of the is going to die. What the FUCK

Were they ever together/romantic? Personally I can't see it (note: this does not mean they didn't fuck). I think my evasiveness to this question is that I just can't ship Saul purely romantically with anyone. He has too much guilt and punishes himself too much to think he deserves romantic love. I see both of his relationships with Andreas and Farah as queerplatonic. I love to write fic of Silrah & Saundreas in all kinds of relationships, platonic and romantic, whatever is my mood or whatever dynamic I feel like exploring, but I keep coming back to the messy soulmates who can't get out of their own way to take the risk and allow themselves to be happy.