#sanderlucioperca

What do you think of this view on feminism?

This view of feminism stems from the author’s religious convictions - which makes it basically a traditionalist critique of feminism (or at least of these particular feminist positions) since religion is usually a preservative for behaviours, values and social rules which gained importance under certain environmental conditions which existed, usually, many many years in the past. As such I would question of how much use this view is under changed environmental conditions.

Though, I have to say, a traditionalist lifestyle is not by itself bad, if the participants participate voluntarily. If a man and a woman consciously decide to live in a relationship with very traditionalist gender roles - go forth and be merry, for all I care.

Of course, the voluntary decision implies that certain conditions are met, like being aware of alternatives in the first place and being free from coercion (a human can never be free from influence because of the way we live and how our brains work, but at least being free from coercive influence it is possible to make a decision based more or less on personal preferences (which are, of course, also not independent)). And surely, what is true for voluntary traditionalism must be true for feminism as well, since both tend to have rather rigid views of how women should behave - but it seems non-sensical to me from a perspective of personal liberty to replace one set of coercive socialisation with another set of coercive socialisation. You have not liberated anyone, you just changed what you force people to do - with the exception of liberal feminists (who are few in number and miniscule in influence) this criticism can be leveled at feminism just as it can be leveled at traditionalism in most of its forms.

(In all this I naturally omitted the socialisation of boys and men towards certain lifestyles in different cultures and social systems, which for some reason seems to be a rather ignored topic by feminism or only tackled in a very simplified way… but not to digress. Let this hint be reason enough for everyone to form their own conclusion.)

As for the methodology of the author, I’m not agreeing with it. Religious scripture, and this case the author explicitly mentions the bible as the basis for her dissent, has no argumentative value for me. It has personal value for these people, but that’s why its authority ends with their personhood. And just because something is incidentally also against feminism does not mean that it is something I approve of.

I don’t know what to do when talking to Christian friends about feminism because so many of them take the above attitude that feminism is about hating men and motherhood, and they deny social problems. Where do I start?

Wow that article is a prime example of a strawman argument. WOW.

Alright, let’s start with Proverbs 31, since that’s the chapter that everyone likes to use in telling women how to behave.

Here is what she does:

Creates goods to sell (31:13)

Trades these goods (31:14)

Provides food for her family and servants (31:15)

Invests her money in real estate and begins a business on the land she bought (31:16)

Works hard at her job (31:17)

Profits from her work (31:18)

Makes more product (31:19)

Is charitable and helps the poor (31:20)

Sets aside enough for her family to have financial security (31:21-22)

Sells clothing (31:24)

Manages the household (31:27)

Damn, I don’t know about you but that sounds like a modern business woman to me.

Seriously though, feminists “number one problem” is not men, it’s a society and the people (men and women and people of all genders) who perpetrate a society where one gender is favored over another.

Now, if they aren’t willing to recognize social issues then that’s sort of their issue. In some ways, you have to pick your battles and realize that some people don’t want to hear it.

But, the wage gap exists, and representation is important. Inequality exists in our culture. Marital rape HAPPENS.

The truth is, our world is royally fucked up. Humanity is fucked up. We’re sinful and we hurt other people. Is it so hard for people to believe that in our state of sin we wouldn’t oppress other people on the basis of our differences?

Is it easier to believe that a sinful people somehow have complete social equality? Or that a sinful people would try to hurt each other?

But the truth is, that sometimes, people just aren’t going to hear you because they don’t want to hear you. It’s hard, but you have to recognize that it’s not your problem. If someone doesn’t want to listen to what you need to say, then that’s their issue. If they aren’t willing to open their eyes to the world around them, then you can’t force them to.