Thorâs character development and types of morality
@foundlingmother, Iâm making this a separate post instead of reblogging because this is getting well off the trail of the original post and I donât want to keep dragging poor writernotwaiting into it. Here is the thread of discussion and hereâs what you said in your reblog:
Thatâs an interesting distinction between compassion and respect. I think I would say, taking into account @illwyndâs explanation of the ways Thor shows that heâs compassionate, or at least trying to be, that part of Thorâs character growth may be that he feels worthiness is tied to, to use the Nietzschean terminology, a slave morality (the contrast between being a good man and a great king, for instance).
That might be some of whatâs going on; Thor is probably picking up some (post-)Christian moral ideas from all the Western-educated humans heâs hanging out with. And of course I donât expect most of the MCU writers to have a very thorough understanding of when certain moral ideas developed and where they came from. So of course to most writers and audiences, âbecoming morally betterâ is going to be more or less synonymous with âbecoming more selfless and altruistic.â That said, a noble value system certainly doesnât preclude caring about other people, and the kind of narcissistic selfishness we associate with people like Trump is still an ignoble mindset, a way of being bad or contemptible according to noble value systems like those of ancient Greece or feudal Europe.
As Iâve said before in discussions of various philosophical issues in the MCU, I think the âgood man vs. great kingâ issue is actually more about deontological vs. consequentialist modes of moral reasoning (I discuss the contrast a bit in this post on Thanos and Ultron and a bit more in this follow-up; apparently I also touched on it in this weird exchange). Thatâs a distinction that mostly comes up within what Nietzsche calls âslave moralityâ -- the standard examples are Kantianism and utililtarianism, both of which are secular adaptations of Christian morality -- but it can actually cut across the slave vs. noble morality distinction. So there can be deontological or consequentialist ways of implementing a noble morality. The reason I think thatâs what Thor was talking about is this line: âThe brutality, the sacrifice, it changes you.â I think what he had in mind was Odinâs willingness to sacrifice many Asgardian lives (and Malekithâs willingness to sacrifice most of his people) for the sake of victory. The reason this is relevant to ruling is that when youâre making decisions about large numbers of people with different needs and interests, youâre always going to have to trade the well-being of some for the well-being of others. I think we all saw the stupidity of Steveâs âWe donât trade livesâ claim in Infinity War, because he was trading lives: in order to buy time to save Vision, he knowingly risked a whole bunch of Wakandan lives. In trying to keep his deontologist conscience clean, to remain âa good man,â he just hid from himself that he was being a bad leader making an indefensible trade, sacrificing many lives for one instead of vice versa.
This got very long, so Iâm putting most of it under a cut.
A note on terminology, because itâs clearly very loaded: the ânobleâ and âslaveâ labels on moralities/value systems refer to whom the value system ultimately benefits. A noble value system is posited and maintained by the noble class (which may be either a knightly or a priestly caste) and works to justify and preserve their dominant position in society. A slave value system may or may not be invented by the lower classes of society (Buddhism, which counts as a slave morality in Nietzscheâs sense, was invented by a prince), but it definitely works to their advantage, because it protects the vulnerable and promotes social equality. The terminology is unfortunate in a context where the word âslaveâ immediately brings to mind the American system of Black chattel slavery; that is definitely not what Nietzsche had in mind. He was a classicist before he became a philosopher, so heâs usually thinking about slavery in the ancient world as well as serfdom in pre-modern Europe. This is definitely unorthodox, but Iâm going to start using âserf moralityâ instead of âslave moralityâ to avoid irrelevant racial connotations.
The main difference between noble and serf morality, on the issue of caring for and helping others, has to do with the way you think about the obligation to do so. The type of serf morality that Nietzsche calls âthe morality of compassionâ or âthe morality of sufferingâ says that you have an obligation to relieve all suffering, and to care about all others who suffer. (Sometimes an exception is made for those who make others suffer and youâre allowed to hate them and want them to suffer; sometimes youâre supposed to pity and help them too.) Youâre supposed to make the happiness and/or well-being of other people your primary goal in life, and youâre supposed to care about everyone, regardless of their relationship to you. Some forms of (post-)Christian morality permit you to prioritize people to whom you have special relationships (family and friends), but the purest form of this morality requires you to care about everyone equally, and ascetic or monastic Christianity discourages forming special relationships because that will inject an element of selfishness into your desire to benefit certain people. The purer forms of this morality -- philosophical Christianity, with or without God -- also consider the salvation of oneâs own soul to be an unacceptably selfish motivation for helping others. Ideally, everyoneâs entire motivation is to eliminate the suffering of others, not because of anything particular about them or their relation to you, but simply because they exist and they suffer. The morality of compassion is universalistic, egalitarian, and outward-focused.
Noble value systems allow agents to be selective in whose well-being they care about. Special relationships are extremely important. Traditionally, this usually means family relationships and comradeship-in-arms because aristocratic societies have conventionally been very heredity-focused and martial. But it also includes what Aristotle scholars call âcharacter friendshipsâ: friendships formed with kindred spirits because of mutual admiration for each otherâs qualities and abilities. The standards of a noble morality only apply to a small class of people, namely, the nobility; itâs largely silent on how non-nobles should behave, and different versions have different rules about how nobles should treat non-nobles. Respect is reserved for other nobles, but some noble moralities, especially medieval hybrids of Christianity and Roman/pagan noble morality, also encourage benevolence, generosity, and forbearance toward commoners. Under certain circumstances, nobles can be obligated to care about the well-being of certain non-nobles, but itâs virtually always a matter of regarding them as your own, as your responsibility. Lords are supposed to care about the commoners who live in their lands and are obligated to protect them and provide for them; Christian knights are supposed to care about other Christians. In the ideal city described in Platoâs Republic, the guardians (the warrior class) are compared to guard dogs who are friendly to their masterâs family but hostile to strangers. Their responsibility is to all the citizens of their city, even the lower-class ones; to that extent, all citizens are their own in the same way family members are. Caring for others in noble moralities is selective and is always a matter of regarding certain others as an extension of oneself and, therefore, regarding their well-being as part of oneâs own well-being. Noble moralities also donât preclude sacrificing yourself for others -- that would be very silly in a warriorâs code of conduct -- but self-sacrifice is not selfless when youâre sacrificing a part of yourself (your life, your body) for another part of yourself: the people who matter to you, your family, your comrades, your countrymen. Thereâs also the understanding that those who sacrifice themselves in such a way will be remembered and honored; you exchange a brief life for long-lasting glory.
(To be clear: Nietzsche was not in favor of going back to a Homeric-style warrior noble morality; he was very aware of the many cultural changes that have made that both impossible and undesirable, mostly involving the internalization and intellectualization of human life and activity. He was imagining communities being constructed and battle lines drawn on the ground of ideas, not geography or ethnicity, which can no longer defensibly be said to have the significance they once did. Nationalism, he thought, was a spasm of an outdated worldview. But he also questioned the value of selflessness and wondered about the end goal of a moral system whose primary motivation is the alleviation of suffering.)
So... Iâm not sure if Thorâs moral improvement was a matter of moving toward serf morality or just becoming a better representative of noble morality. I definitely think Odinâs goal was the latter. âHumilityâ considered as an absolute value, as in the more of it the better, definitely belongs to serf morality, but there is a place for humility as a balancing quality in noble morality: Aristotle places magnanimity, or âgreatness of soul,â as the virtue at the mean between vanity or arrogance -- claiming more honor than you deserve -- and an excess of humility or âsmallness of soul,â which is effectively meekness, laying claim to less honor than you actually deserve. Thor was arrogant and vain; he invited adulation, he overestimated his own abilities and (as we saw in the deleted scene) the amount of credit he deserved for victories he shared with others. He needed to be shown that he isnât invincible and that he sometimes has to rely on others, but the goal wasnât for him to become self-effacing. His maturation also involved a greater awareness and sensitivity to the needs of others: contrast his complete obliviousness to the danger his friends are in during the Jotunheim battle with the slow-motion sequence in the Puente Antiguo battle where Thor looks around and really takes in how much his friends are struggling. That -- along with his acknowledgment that he might have done something to wrong Loki and his attempt to apologize -- might be considered an increase in empathy and/or compassion; in any case, itâs definitely doing a better job of caring for the people with whom he has a relationship, and for whom he is responsible. Making friends in Midgard does seem to have done something to widen the scope of his compassion and/or benevolence, since he now sees a problem with wiping out the Jotnar.
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