Now that I've argued against both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, I want to get into things that are disputed within the Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath camp.
One part is debating when in the sequence of Judgments (Seals, Trumpets, Bowls) we reach the midway point.
I know Revelation isn't purely chronological, certain single statements span an entire half of the 70th week. But there is a basic chronology to it that clearly places the mid way point between the Trumpets and Bowls. This is a problem for some people though, who have tried to argue that we're at the halfway point at the Sixth Seal, or that we're already at the end of the 70th week when the 7th Trumpet sounds, but those argument always seem forced.
In Revelation 8 there is no gap between the Seals and the Trumpets, the Trumpets and the Censer both come from the 7th Seal. But between the 7th Trumpet and the Bowls is the entire narrative of Revelation 12, 13 and 14.
I think it's telling that in Revelation 11 the 7th Trumpet is preceded by 2 reference to 3 and a half years that clearly correlate to the first half of the 70th week (i know some see those as the second half already, but they describe conditions that can only apply pre Abomination of Desolation) and then in 12 and 13 is followed by 3 references to a 3 and a half years period that are clearly the second half.
Now for the matter of at what point are we already under "God's Wrath". Many both Pre-Tribbers, and certain Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters view us as already in Wrath at the Sixth Seal, and refer to the Trumpets as God's Wrath. For the latter this is why they need to force the mid-way point sooner, for the former they consider it reason to view Tribulation and Wrath as indistinguishable and rending the Pre-Wrath distinction a mute point.
The account of the Sixth Seal is the only time the word Wrath occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can't build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren't anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Job's idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Yeshua's father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Yeshua was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
So I won't even get into any textual debate about if "is come" should be "is coming" or whatever else. The Sixth Seal happens to be one of the most recognizable passages of Revelation, my earliest memory of hearing Revelation quoted back when I was a kid was in the movie Ghost Busters when Ray recounts the Sixth Seal (He got the chapter it's in wrong), Dan has a good voice for quoting Scripture. For people who don't study Eschatology it's probably a more unmistakable event then even the Abomination of Desolation.
So when it happens the world will think the Lamb's Wrath has come already, but a further reading of Revelation shows that that is nothing compared to the Wrath. And I don't believe it's describing an average local earthquake, but a global one. But it's interesting that it's been recording in some local earthquakes where there were also volcanic eruptions, the Sun wen black and the Moon looked blood red as if it was a Lunar Eclipse. So because of that I consider the Blood Moon theory probably a distraction, but I will still be paying attention to them.
The Sixth Seal is indeed an unmistakeable parallel to the Cosmic Signs refereed to in Joel and Matthew 24 and elsewhere. But it's only the beginning of those Signs, they continue through the 7th Seal and the Trumpets. Only the Bowls in Revelation 15&16 are actually defined as being God's Wrath poured out on the world. Trumpets are warnings and declarations Biblically, they precede Judgment.
The multitude of Saints seen in Heaven in Revelation 7 are frequently interpreted to be already Resurrected/Raptured, I think that argument is weak. They are in a different state then they where after the Fifth Seal was opened, but that could mean any number of things. Perry Stone specifically says the Bema Judgment must have already happened, many would need to have Crown to absolutely prove that point. Basically it's having their Robes people think prove being already Resurrected, the washed Robes represent that their Sins are removed, that is all.
A debate exists over whether or not the "Last Trump" that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.
Chris White argues it's neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10. It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Levitcus 23:24, that's an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram's Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says it was the Silver Trumpets sounded on that day.
Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months". Now "solemn days" in the Hebrew texts refers to the "appointed times' or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.
The single word translated "blowing of trumpets" in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is use din Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated "Alarm".
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys."
In verse 7 it's a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.
At any rate I'd agree we can't build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.
I don't think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to the Heavenly Trumpets, whether it's the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram's Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings, so symbolically both point to Jesus as out Sin Offering, who's voice is sometimes described as "like a Trumpet".
Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.
I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all what where before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that singles the Rapture isn't in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it's purpose.
Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn't referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul's from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.
We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word "Archangel" in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an "n" making it technically plural in Greek.
We have this time not fallible humans but the Four Cherubim declaring God's Wrath is come.
We have talk about it now being the "Time of the Dead" and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Seat Judgment to me.
I also think "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" correlates to "The sign of the Son of Man" being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb's Blood was shed for our Sins.
There is lighting and another Earthquake.
I also think you could argue that after the symbolic recap of history in Revelation 12 and 13, that 14 returns to chronologically where we left off.
The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like their in their Resurrected state, with talk of being "Redeemed from the Earth" and being the "First Fruits". I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, their a specific group of believers, I don't think they represent the Church. But I do think their part of the Church and possibly Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.
And latter we have "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man" in verse 14. And with it Harvest imagery.
And further reading shows the pouring out of God's Wrath is still only about to happen.
And then supplemental to what follows the 7th Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, their Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it's possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.
The Parallels are perhaps not as many as a whole 20, but that's because Revelation is a sort of coded book your supposed to use the rest of the the Bible to unlock, and visa versa. And I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.
Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn't been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping "neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:". So the life like Image of the beast isn't here yet.
Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before that is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can't happen until after The beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We're told he's ascended out of it already when he kills the Two Witnesses.
The Pre-Wrath position also insist the ministry of the Witness sis the second half, of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.
I've also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen. And 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, and the rest of Chapter 2 and into Chapter 3 as describing it's outcome, and clear Rapture illusions exist there, the Bridegroom coming for his Bride.
I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet. Which surprises me. Many I've seen, like in J.R. Church's book on the Minor Prophets, see Joel Chapter 2 correlating to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn't work quite as well. I don't like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That's the significance of The Smoke.
But The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn't fit the latter. And I've become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.
It seems allot of people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture, enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.
Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the "Falling Away" before the Abomination of Desolation. The Falling away I view as a compromise doctrine that will happen during this period of persecution. In fact I believe the Antichrist doctrine of the First half of the 70th Week will be deny only that Jesus was the Son of God and God made Flesh. I personally believe he'll fully view Jesus as real/historical, a Prophet and even Messiah Ben-David.
There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. Before he midway point The Church is persecuted, and after that The Jews are who he targets. The Pre-Trib view is considered dangerous because it encourages Western Christian to feel secure that they won't face any persecution. But teaching it won't begin until after the Abomination of Desolation has almost the same effect. I think this persecution might even begin in some from before we're even in the 70th Week.
Since I've recently reconsidered, that maybe the 70th will be Nisan-Nisan years (as I added to the Jewish Holy Days study) like the first 69 were. I've considered that the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet could be on the Feast of Trumpets, making all 3 theories of what the "Last Trump" refers to correct.
