#game90

Podcast transcript

Sian: There needs to be a theme song. [Singing] Welcome to List Oriented. *Finger Clicks*.

Xanthea: I think that’s great.

Sian: Nailed it. Hashtag, nailed it.

Xanthea: We’ll doodle a ukulele over it.

Connor: Can you put some beats in?

Xanthea: Yeah I’ll put some beats.

Connor: Maybe I should just make it so that just pops up automatically when the blog starts.

Sian: Noooo…haha. Like Myspace circa 2006…

[Podcast theme plays]

 Connor: So I’d like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners and custodians of the land on which we meet today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Hey!

Xanthea: Hi

Connor: Hi

Sian: Hello.

C: Welcome to the first and possibly only edition of the List Oriented podcast, which is…a decision I have made to do a podcast instead of a blogpost for this game, Cibele. Cibele was made by Star Maid Games, which is the vehicle of Nina Freeman. It came out in 2015. To discuss it with me today I have some friends and experts.

X: [Laughs] That’s us!

S: Don’t fact check that.

C: Uh…Sian Campbell, editor of Scum Magazine, researcher extraordinaire…

S: Animal Crossing expert…and Connor’s housemate! Yay.

X: Correct.

C: Aaaand in the other corner… Xanthea O’Connor. Writer, performer…

X: Sims video expert…

C: …Connoisseur.

X: Mhm, mhm.

S: You’ve kind of made it sound like we’re gonna fight.

C: Yeah I mean…that’s probably not going to happen but…

S: Well we don’t know.

X: We’ve got the whiskey out…drinking coffee and whiskey at the same time.

C: Whiskey is a fighting drink. I have a friend who won’t drink whiskey because he says it makes him too angry.

X: That’s why I don’t drink tequila.

C: Oh! Cos it makes you too angry?

X: Mhm, yeah.

S: I don’t drink tequila because I end up with girls in bathrooms.

[All laugh]

C: So Cibele… or “Sybil” depending on who you are, uhm, is a game, which, kind of, is a bit different from other games, it is…uh. It has you play as Nina, the main character, uhm, who you see introduced at the start of the game in a like, full motion video when she sits down at the computer. And then the next thing we have access to Nina’s desktop so we are - kind of - Nina but we’re kind of also not-Nina. Uhm, and we can rifle through her pictures and her archived blog posts, uhm, and then eventually we get to open up this game called Valtameri which is sort of a Final Fantasy parody type thing, and we play Valtameri with this guy called Ichi, or Blake, uhm…

X: Spoiler he’s a creep.

C: Well. Arguably he’s a creep. Uhm. And we just talk to him. Aaaand… our other friends are messaging us while we’re playing but we’re not that interested, uhm. And we kind of have this cycle a few times where we play the game, and then we maybe send photos to Ichi or…maybe…I dunno what else happens but anyway there’s like three phases of the game and it takes place over a few months and then… that’s kind of… it. That’s the end of the game. I dunno. Anything to add?

X: Should we give a spoiler that at the end he lives in another state and he comes to see her, at the end…

C: Or us…

X: Or us… and then… they Have Sexxx. And then, the last bit of the game is him saying that it was a mistake, over the internet, and you see the last image of her at the computer looking very isolated and then it’s just the end of the game. Is that alright to say? The spoiler?

C: Yeah we’re not going to be able to talk about the game without saying that, so.

X: Yeah we need to say there’s unresolved tension at the end. Uhm…yes. That there’s no way to resolve.

C: Uhmmm yeah so it’s unusual, I mean, like I suppose some people at the time made a point about it’s not being a game you “play” so much as experience because you can’t really have any influence on it, it’s more just about exploring…the life that is presented to you.

X: And whatever influence that you do have, doesn’t really affect the main narrative. So you can do small little actions, like you can choose text that you say to people, but it doesn’t actually change anything that happens.

C: Yeah. You can’t make meaningful choices.

S: I did like that you can engage with, or not engage with, the background media as much as you wanted to. Because it’s got the interface of her desktop where you can look in her desktop folders, look at her selfies, pull up chatlogs all that kind of stuff. And you don’t have to in order to experience the game. And I liked that element of it because it was, I guess, immersive and, yeah. Again, it didn’t really influence the gameplay in any way. And you could safely assume that people would look at everything, because that’s kind of how most people play games. But, yeah, I thought that achieved the goal, which was to make it feel like you were her, on her computer.

X: Whereas for me I felt like, maybe as someone who doesn’t game quite as much – calling myself out here - but, the idea of going through those things maybe wasn’t as exciting for me so maybe I did speed through the game a bit more occupying Myself rather than the character of Nina. Maybe because I found looking through photos that were similar to photos I would have taken in 2008 deeply frustrating uhm, yeah. But it’s just different experiences I guess.

S: I found interesting in terms of, like, obviously this is a creative work that she’s made, so I came at it from the point of view of wondering about the inclusion of certain things. Like, why that photo as opposed to – I’m sure she has hundreds of photos of that time – like what does this photo or poem say about that time in her life that another photo taken in the same photo session didn’t? Or something like that, I mean, obviously everything that was included in the desktop interface was a deliberated choice and so I found that aspect interesting.

C: Hmm yeah, like someone else had made the point which wasn’t something that I’d picked up on but, that some of the photos were intentionally bad photos that were included, which I guess when we’re talking about the choice of presentation uhm. And her poetry and chatlogs and it’s this idea of airing your dirty laundry…

X: Well it’s still curated.

C: Yeah, very much so.

X: But, it’s very clear that there’s the intention there that it is a little bit more vulnerable than what you might just put online it’s like, yeah it’s more the sort of stuff you might just keep in a file somewhere on desktop, I guess there’s that vulnerability that you don’t normally get on a blog or Instagram or something like that.

S: And I guess that by being vulnerable she signposts to us as player or consumer in some ways that we should trust this as a confessional work.

X: Mhm. It does feel very much like rifling through someone’s diary, or…yeah that feeling of you’re totally not meant to look at someone’s phone, but there’s occasionally that impulse to do so, and it definitely feels like you’re doing something that’s…it’s kind of not okay, but within the game context…

S: Yeah. And so I find that interesting coz it’s kind of her giving us the phone and wiping everything on the phone other than the things that are on it, but the things that are on it are kind of not necessarily things that make her look the best, so I, yeah. It’s interesting from a curatorial point of view.

X: Mhm. Yeah it’s definitely curated from someone looking back at that self and being really honest. Which I find really interesting. And I haven’t really… again, not a huge gamer but I haven’t seen that in a game before, that really confessional, like, autobiographical…

C: Yeah. I mean it definitely comes from a place of there being not much autobiography in games and certainly not with this, uhm, mix of mediums that it’s sort of used where you’ve got this, like, video of the character which is played by the person who made the game who’s named the character after themselves and so it’s like…they’re acting as themselves, and then using bits from their life, and there’s a game element to it, and a movie element to it…and all these things are sort of slipping over. Whereas I think other autobiographical games have been more text based or uhm… traditional, in air quotes…

 [Music plays: excerpt from “turn on” by Decky Coss]

 X: So do you want to talk about…do we want to talk about what we did like and didn’t like…now?

C: Yeah. I find it — I guess I find it a really interesting game. And it’s almost like, for me, because it’s so unusual in so many ways it almost like …avoids the question, for me, as to whether or not it’s something “I like”. I guess what I liked about it is it’s something I haven’t really experienced elsewhere, uhm, it’s a very novel game to me. Like I do think it has identifiable shortcomings which I guess we’ll come to later, but, uhm…

X: So you like the experimentation of it?

C: Yeah. I do like the experimentation of it. I like the way it, uhm, mixes these things together and the way it plays with autobiography, which is another thing I’m sure we’ll talk more about it. I like it’s sound and visual kind of…the desktop artwork, it’s design. I have a basic appreciation of that I suppose.

X: She’s got a really strong aesthetic. I think that can be fully agreed upon. Sian, what about you?

S: I’ve never played online collaborative gaming like the kind of gaming this game is about and referencing, and that the game-inside-the-game is meant to, I guess, be a play on or be an example of. I… I found the game kind of rudimentary and not that enjoyable to play. As in the game “Valtameri”, uhm.

X: Also, I don’t think you even had to actually play it because Ichi was playing it…

S: Mhm, I couldn’t tell, I thought you did.

C: Yeah, I feel like if you did nothing it wouldn’t go forward at all…

S: Yeah I agree. But. I feel like it did what intended to do which was immerse you in the idea of being a person playing a game while listening to the audio of a story which is of people talking while playing a game, so it was effective in its aim in that sense, but it just wasn’t an enjoyable experience to actually play it. I found it boring and clunky.

X: I think I was beginning to dread having to go in there and do it, too.

S: Me too.

X: It’s almost like a meditative means to an end within the game. But the actual game itself is like…ugh. Just like, clicking. Like Diablo but…with worse monsters.

C: Yeah.

X: Does that make me sound really stupid?

C: No. I mean that’s what it is.

X: I think if…I think if there had been a little bit more, like, difference, so if it was a different kind of game, or if it was simple it was so simple it mirrored a game like Diablo or games like that…if it didn’t mirror a game like that it might be more interesting but I found myself clicking and just “oh I don’t want to play… I want to play an actual good game” and uhmm yeah

S: Yeah. I found it tedious and I found… I don’t know if it was just my Mac I was playing it on but I found it soooo clunky and awkward and like, to actually navigate inside the game was just a nightmare and so I was the same, I was dreading it every time I had to do that part.

C: Yeah I wonder like, uhm… if they had built Valtameri to be more interesting it would have detracted from the point of it which was I guess, uhm, the paying attention to the conversation or…

X: Well you’re forced to coz it’s so monotonous.

C: Yeah.

S: I was thinking the same thing. And I’m wondering if there was…I mean, there would be, there would be a way of having it simplistic in terms of goals and fighting and all that while also… not being as boring and annoying. But, yeah. I was also thinking the same thing in that because it was so straightforward it did give you that space to absorb the story better.

C: Yeah.

X: Mhm.

S: In terms of, like, bigger picture, I just didn’t really like the framing at the end. Which was, kind of the game ends and it leaves you with this message that… this is an experience of what first love is which I felt was, uhm, again a bit clunky and didn’t feel honest to me. Which I thought was interesting because the game itself is quite a vulnerable, confessional, honest game.

X: Yeah, it was very good at interrogating Nina, and very good at doing a lot of showing not telling but still interrogating the character of Ichi, but then… interrogating the relationship itself felt, like…yeah, when it said it was about first love… not… I dunno. Was it?

S: Yeeeah, you’re talking about a relationship that never was with someone you were never really with. Uhm, it was very unclear, I guess. And it was interesting – and I think most people have had relationships like this, online – where you’re communicating with someone primarily online and forming this relationship and this bond but also but kind of on one level… I guess, unsure as to where that relationship fits outside the box that is your computer.

X: Yeah, and I found that, actually, the whole premise of the game for me – as, like, someone who has left their early twenties, thankfully – of knowing that environment and knowing those people and that sort of relationship that gets built online, and as soon as we’re introduced to Ichi the character I wanted to just shut it down.

S: Mhm.

X: It was like “eurgh I know what’s going to happen, I… don’t want to be there for that”. And so there was that… again, I don’t know if it’s something I necessarily liked or disliked, I just found it a very confronting part of the game, that, I wasn’t sure… whether it was for me necessarily, or what the point of it would be for me to play.

C: Yeah, right. I feel like, that was really interesting for me actually, playing it this time, because I have played it once before back after it came out…I played it not long after… and I think my experience this time, it seemed a lot more like… obvious how, Ichi, the things he said seemed quite… bad. And I didn’t remember it being quite so bad. Like I felt like his actions were always questionable. But just the whole…like all of his dialogue…is

X: It’s very well done.

C: Oh it’s very well done. It seems very real.

X: But that’s the thing. If you’ve never been groomed online before. I dunno. Can I say he was grooming? I feel like it was kind of…

S: It wasn’t *not* grooming, it was…[sighs] it’s hard to tell, I mean, I guess. And that’s part of what’s interesting is that it’s her memories of how it happened and what their conversations were like, then portrayed by somebody else. So of course, we can only go on what we actually see but it’s referencing something that happened and probably what we’re listening to is quite different from what actually was being said, so that line is quite murky and unclear. I found it hard to tell exactly to what extent he knew what he was doing or even if he was doing anything other than just enjoying playing a game with someone who was showing him that kind of positive attention, like, a girl who was showing him that kind of attention. It was kind of unclear to me where he wanted it to go or even if he wanted it to go anywhere. She was kind of the one pushing them meeting up and things like that. I felt like he was toying with her, very much so. I don’t know whether I would say he was….hmm, I would say he was grooming her but I don’t know whether it was…

X: …a premeditated sort of predatory…

S: Yeah. Yeah.

X: Yeah, I think it’s quite interesting, thinking about that and where you are upon reflection making this dialogue, I guess as the maker of the game, as Nina did, it reminds me of…after we’d played the game, uhm, and I opened up my laptop and I got all my 2007 emails spat at me and, heaps of emails from old friends, and lots of guy friends talking about girl stuff, like putting in, like copy-pasting msn messenger chat things they’d had with girls like “I don’t know what this means, can you help?” And I was reading through, and it was very similar like baiting sort-of situations where someone’s like “well I’m not very good” and you’re like “no, you’re great!”. And like… very similar dialogue, where I’m sure these friends of mine were not predatory they were just, like, trying to get some affection, just being like – they must have been sixteen, seventeen at the time, like – really trying to figure out how to broach a like a sexual or romantically intimate relationship with somebody, and there’s just a lot of like, neediness in those conversations, that I forgot was a thing, until I got all those emails being like… oh we were so… like, if we now, in our late twenties to thirties messaged something like that, we’d be like… “you’re a freak”, like. You wouldn’t be able to say what we were saying back then. So yeah, I think it’s kind of interesting…what you’re saying, is that we assume that it’s predatory because as older people now, because that’s what it signifies but… when you’re younger…sometimes it can just be, like…

S: Yeah, on one level I felt like he was…just confused and out of his depth. Like this girl, that he’s obviously attracted to, and very much enjoying having the attention of, is then suddenly starting to push the line of, “well are we gonna meet up”, and he’s kind of thinking “Oh. She wants to meet up with me. I hadn’t actually thought…”. Like, it seemed like he’s just enjoying the online experience, and she’s the one who wanted to solidify things and meet up. From my memory I mean, I played it a couple of months ago. And then he’s kind of, it seemed maybe, internally wrestling with the idea of “do I want that? If I want that, it’ll obviously be beneficial for me in those certain ways”, but it’s obviously… most people, or at least most girls who have been through that wringer at least would be able to tell going into it that he didn’t actually…that there was not going to be a relationship, that he uhm… when he came to New York that wasn’t going to be a love story coming to fruition.

X: Yeah, totally.

S: But obviously she was engaging in these like fishing tactics too that we all did when you’re young and you try and feel out what’s actually happening: “Does this person like me? Do they not like me? Oh I’m ugly, I’m sure, oh…” you know, all that kind of bashful…

X: And, that as well, because you can see how vulnerable she is on her desktop, like you can see all those photos, and you can see the development of her sexualisation as well within the game because…it’s in three parts right? Where it goes, like, the first time, and then it’s a few months later, a few months later. And you can see every time the desktop refreshes she is like more sexualised, you can see her search history of things she’s looking through, you can see where it’s heading in her own mind. And there is those fishing tactics from both sides. It’d be really interesting to see, like, Ichi’s desktop as well. Like, I would love the other side of, what he’s looking at.

S: Yeah.

X: Because, for me, I can look at Nina’s desktop as long as I want – like, I get it. But I would love to know what he’s doing. And like, his intentions. Obviously, Nina doing that would be disingenuous. But it would be really interesting to have a game, of like, a 17-year-old boy’s desktop, and understanding where that headspace is.

S: I thought there were some interesting context clues, in the game, that were interesting on a few different levels, hinting at the idea that this was something he did with girls, that he kind of…played with them, that he was only interested in playing games with girls, obviously enjoying this attention. That was something that was I think said by at least one person she talked to, and possibly multiple people that she talked to was, oh. I kind of got the sense that she was new girl that he was “playing with”, in multiple senses.

X: And those things like, burned out, sort of.

S: Yeah. I kind of thought that context was interesting. Because, if you’ve been through this relationship, you have the ability to see what’s happening, which is why you and I both have a stronger feeling that this guy is in some ways… not necessarily predatory, but, in some ways manipulative and, just bad news. Just not… uncomfortable.

X: We’re playing through a pattern of behaviour that isn’t going to be healthy for either them…

S: Yeah, uhm, and so we can recognise that, it feels like we’re meant to recognise that, it feels like those clues are…they’re not even clues, it’s part of the dialogue, we can hear it, we can interpret it. And those context clues of other people referencing the fact that this has happened with other girls… well it seemed like what those other people were referencing.

C: Mhm.

S:  Those were deliberate things put in the game by Nina, which is interesting when you think about the way that she then frames the game at the end as “this is just a story about first love.”

X: Mhm. It’s…yeah, it’s confusing, definitely, because it’s kind of undermining like what you think she’s setting out to achieve, and almost like… is that just meant to be…a joke? How intentional is that? Did she not know how to wrap it up? Wrap up the story to resolve it all…

S: Yeah that’s what I was unclear of. It did almost feel like she felt it needed one final, like, “and this is what the game is” flagging. Whereas I thought it would be more powerful and interesting if she just left it the way it was but without that kind of final message.

X: Mhm.

S: And so in some ways I felt frustrated by that messaging because I’d interpreted it so differently, and I was then being told that my experiences were incorrect, I guess? That maybe I’d interpreted it wrong. It also made me sad for her that she was interpreting it in that first love sense. And it made me feel guilty for feeling sad for her [laughs] like it was…it was an interesting choice for her to kind of….in such a cerebral, experimental game, where you have the power to experience it the way you want, for then for her to tell you how it should be read was… an interesting choice.

X: Mhm, yeah, totally. Coz it almost makes you second guess, like oh was she not upset? Did he not just do something that was, like, not loving?

C: Yeah, I though that was… uhm, like, a weird bit of the author coming to then tell you what the game is about. But at the same time it reminded me of – I recently read a memoir by Michelle Tea, Passionate Mistakes – and in it she talks about… there’s a scene where she says one of her early boyfriends, she says, that telling him “I love you” was like, a code for “we can have sex now”. And I thought that like, in the context of this game being kind of, like… I think Nina does the same thing in Act 2, she says “I love you”, like,  “I think I love you”, and then it’s… it’s part of the development of the relationship and it’s like heading towards having sex for the first time. Uhm, and that kind of being framed as…maybe that’s more of an American thing? Like, a code, I dunno.

X: Nooo, it’s not.

[Laughter]

X: It’s not an American code. Unless I am American.

C: Or is it a teenage code?

X: It’s definitely, I dunno for me it’s definitely a teenage code.

C: Sure.

X: I think it was, another book that I was reading recently, and talked about constantly while I was reading it…was it Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson? Yeah. That’s the one.

C: I guess we can edit in the correct title later.

[Laughter]

X: And she…it’s like a beat memoir of a women during the beat era, and she dated Jack Kerouac, and it’s saying that…during that era, and I mean still it holds true, but like, women, or young girls are taught to safe guard their virginity, and boys are taught to safeguard themselves, and that idea of love being… like, giving, giving way to something that you can lose yourself to. And I think that it 100% feels like that, like when women say - when girls say - “I love you”, it’s like, very much about that idea of safeguarding their bodies.

C: Right.

X: And, yeah, I don’t know where else to go from there. But it’s very…it’s not just American, I think it’s like, across the board. In like, early relationships.

C: Okay.

S: Mhm.

X: What do you think, Sian?

S: I dunno, it was… I don’t necessarily have any opinion about the sexual element to it. I guess I feel like I got the sense that she wanted to have sex, like that was something she wanted to do, she was ready for and thinking about, and thinking was kind of her way of accessing that, in some ways. Uhm. Mhm. I was sort of…was very unclear of his… thinking, I guess, and what he was thinking about, where he was coming from, who he was as a character. Just, I didn’t get a sense specifically of who he was. Like I feel like I’ve probably met gamer guys like him… it… She gave us some ideas but I also… I think what you were saying in wanting to see his desktop was interesting because we got such a clear idea of who she was but we didn’t get any of that from the actual audio, from the actual in-game experience of them chatting. They didn’t talk about their life, pretty much at all. So, everything we learnt of her we got from her desktop. So, we didn’t get that same chance to learn who this guy was. What he did outside this game. Where he lived, who he lived with, what he studied. We didn’t get any of that. And I think, hmm, I agree with you – I don’t think she could have added that, I think it would have been disingenuous and it would have been against the point of what the game actually was as experimental memoir basically.

X: Hmm. But I also think with so many gamer guys as, uh, as a woman who has dated a lot of gamer guys, I think that…especially during that time when you’re just going into university, you are like plumbing for depth, like emotional depth in people that you’re dating, and often it’s just not developed yet, like, I dunno. From experience I think that, this guy I honestly just think – like I know I said his behaviour felt like it was grooming, but – he just, maybe, as well, had no idea what he was doing.

S: I kind of – yeah, I got that sense as well. I mean, I think he knew what he was doing in terms of fostering her attention, but in the larger picture I don’t think he was a particularly deep or interesting person.

[Laughter]

X: I remember… I dated this guy – anecdote! We can cut this out – uhm, but I dated this guy when I was like 17, and it was my first year of uni, I met him in my maths class – shoutout, you know who you are! Uhm… and he… I remember like in the first week of us dating he said that he missed his bus stop because he was thinking, and I was like “oh my god, he’s so deep, he like missed his bus because he was Thinking” and I, like, “I wonder what he was thinking about, probably me, how amazing I am”.

[Laughter]

X: And then maybe a month later or like two months later, he was like “oh yeah I missed my bus stop again”, and I was like “oh what were you thinking about?”. And he was like “oh you know, just what everyone said during the day”. [Laughs]. Like he was just, no further reflection. Just what everyone said in sequential order, and it was just that moment of like, oh… you weren’t, it wasn’t… there was no depth to the thought, you were just daydreaming about the sequence of events during the day, uhm. And that moment of, like, disillusionment was quite… upsetting.

S: Mhm.

X: But yeah I feel like that’s what we could have done during this game, is that we’ve turned him into this guy that’s like…. well, for me, definitely I’ve like, in my head while I was playing it, I was like “what a piece of trash”, like. But he probably just logs off and twiddles his thumbs, and, I don’t know… plays Fortnite.

S: Yeah it’s kind of like that, I don’t know. I was gonna say meme. I feel like there’s tik-toks about it where girls are like “urr I wonder what he’s thinking or why he’s not messaging me back” and he’s literally just playing games or asleep or just…outside! And there’s no greater mystery to it, it’s just that he’s not currently texting you, coz he’s a boy, and they’re boring!

[Laughter]

X: Mhm, yeah.

S: But yeah I totally agree that uhm…of having had so many times that experience of having had so many times that experience of just assuming people must be thinking these larger internalised thoughts like there’s this whole world of them we’re not accessing and that felt…I felt like that as well while playing this game. Or I felt her feeling that, while playing this game.

X: Totally, coz there’s so much of her planning in there. So much of her planning flights and looking at prices of flights and things like that. And it’s like, she’s putting so much energy into, and like I’m sure he had not even googled a flight until…

S: I don’t even think he was thinking about them meeting up really until she kind of…started, felt like she was…not pushing it but…

X: She was giving ultimatums kind of…

S: Yeah.

C: Which I mean, fair enough.

X: Yeah.

 [Music interlude: excerpt from “what would happen if we met” by Decky Coss]

 C: So…uhm, we sort of touched on it before but like, “who is this game for?” is a question that Xanthea you suggested we should talk about.

X: Yep.

C: Possibly because you didn’t think – not to put words in your mouth –

X: Put ‘em in.

C: - but you weren’t sure, like, you weren’t sure if this game had a target, or that if there was a particular set of people that should be playing this, or like. I dunno, what were your thoughts?

X: Yeah I dunno, I just felt like, especially by the end of it when it was…or even as I started it, and hearing the dialogue, I knew what was going to happen. And I felt that…like sitting and playing – I wouldn’t have finished playing if I wasn’t playing with you, Connor, because…I was like “I know what’s going to happen…”

C: Yeah.

X: “and it’s going to be annoying”…like “it’s going to irritate me”. So…yeah. I think that it’s… you don’t go into playing this game for like, excellent gameplay, or like…I, I dunno. I think it’s an experiment, and it’s a worthy and valid experiment of a game, uhm. But as a standalone, I’m not sure… if I’m like “cool I feel entirely satisfied, as a, as a consumer of this game”. Like I want there…coz it is that experiment, now I want something else to come out that’s inspired by it…

S: Mhm.

X: Does that make sense?

S: I sort of felt like… uh, I guess as wanky as it might sound, I sort of felt that it’s just a piece of art, and it didn’t need or even have a specific target audience, it was just created for art’s sake. And I guess if I had to say who it was for, I guess, people who enjoy immersive, experimental gameplay but… yeah I’m kind of the same mind in that I’m excited by it as a starting off point, in terms of gaming.

X: Unless we sell it to the government and they lock teenage boys in rooms and make them play it.

C: Do you think there’s like an educational element where teenage boys should play it and understand, that like…?

X: I dunno that girls are real people? Maybe.

[Laughter]

X: That’s another – okay, another boyfriend that i had, once, two months into dating the next boyfriend - everyone goes to take a drink - he said, uhh, “I didn’t realise that girls had feelings until I started dating you”, which was, like, the most –

S: Did you break up with him immediately?

X: No, we dated for a year and a half.

S: But he didn’t know women were…he didn’t know girls were people.

X: I know!

S: That’s scary!

X: And he dated a lot of women before me. Uhm…and yeah! But maybe I’m coming at it from a radicalised point of view, given my dating history.

[Laughter]

X: But yeah, I think that this game for like, Sian and I – and Connor as well I guess – is like, preaching to the converted that these relationships, these early relationships being fraught and problematic and, like… very difficult to navigate. Yeah, so, as you said, it does feel more as a piece of artwork acknowledging all those issues. But at the same time, I think it does have a message that feels…interesting. I just don’t think a young boy would pick it up and be like “I can’t wait to play this game!”

S: Mhm. I think I would love to have a conversation with a bunch of girls at different points in their life, like a fifteen-year-old girl and a seventeen-year-old girl and a nineteen-year-old girl. Like find out what someone thinks when they’re in the middle of these kind of relationships, playing this game, like…do they recognise it? Do they have thoughts about as being manipulative, or uhm, that kind of fishing idea that they’re both doing, engaging in that kind of fishing behaviour… I’d be really interested to know what I would have said about the game, when I was eighteen.

X: Yeah. I think if I was playing it at eighteen I would have a lot more internalised misogyny, of just being like “oh she was just super needy and”…

S: Mhm. And I think… it’s so hard to say, like, would…would I have felt more impacted by it? Would I have felt more called out by it? Would I have felt more seen, or…would I have wanted to… I think I probably would have read it the same way that Nina is now telling us to read it, which is as a love story, because…that’s kind of…I would have been closer to Nina’s, I guess, idea of who she was when she was…when we are Nina in this game. I think that’s what I would have…would have been my experience as an eighteen-year-old.

X: Hmm…

S: So it’s kind of interesting, I think I would have… shipped them. As it were.

X: Totally.

C: Yeah right?

X: And would have focussed a lot more on him being like, he’s so like…he’s so cute, or like… kind of getting really into that idea that’s like oh yeah… and like, actively shipping, as you say.

S: Mhm, picking up on things he said that indicated he was interested, as opposed to now, when your bullshit meter is just going Off The Charts.

X: Totally! Every, every bit…like literally the first game you play it’s like “ew, go away.”

[Laughter]

X: “Where is the option to never play with this guy ever again? Oh wait, it doesn’t exist. It’s the whole game. How horrible for you Nina”.

C: Yeah I remember you saying that you felt almost like a bit trapped by it, by the fact that you can’t get out of it, like you have to experience this…not, not that it’s necessarily trauma, but like-

X: Yeah it’s traumatic! And you…I mean, every line that he was saying was like ugh, it felt so close to…things…I’ve heard online because I was quite a vulnerable teenager, who was constantly fishing for things online – call myself out, hundred percent. And yeah, it’s very challenging to go back and look at somebody doing that and not being able to, within gameplay, do anything about that.

S: Mhm.

X: Like sit her down and be like. “Nina. We need to have a talk about this. You’re fine. Chill out. Go for a walk. This guy’s…not good.” Like, yeah, I dunno I think, uhm…coz you yeah I dunno I think I very much… immediately saw that and it frustrated me.

C: Yeah. That’s fair.

X: But, I mean, if it’s a work of art that’s okay! It’s allowed to frustrate.

S: I think that feeling of being trapped is interesting coz I had that same sense of being locked in, uhm, but at the same time I think that feeling is an effective one in making you feel immersed in this person’s life. Like it really…because I guess, you are locked in and because of the desktop element and because of the kind of immersing gameplay it really felt like you were experiencing this person’s life in a way that…I’m not sure whether it would have been as effective if you could kind of pause and click out and stop.

 [music interlude: “cibele” by Decky Coss]

 C: Uhm, I guess one final thing we can talk about is, this idea of it being autobiographical or not? Or where it kind of sits on that spectrum – I suppose because this isn’t something that’s been done so much in games uhm… we were kind of looking at the idea of it being “autofictional” because it’s taking the idea of, the intentional blending of something that happened in the life of the creator so it’s sort of like memoir, but it’s also an intentional, uhm, saying that it is not totally autobiographical because it’s not using certain elements, or it’s recreating certain elements. Uhm, so I dunno – Sian, because you are the autofiction expert in the room, what was your kind of idea about how it was positioning itself?

S: Uhm, I would say…on one level I would be inclined to say it didn’t read as autofiction to me because it just felt like it was a retelling of something that happened, it didn’t feel like we were meant to suspend our disbelief or that we were meant to uhm, assume that anything that happened didn’t happen exactly as it happened – I got the sense that it was almost in some ways quite literal. I dunno. I think I would have to think a lot harder about this. I think autofiction’s interesting because a lot of the time it relies on what you already know about the creator…

C: Yeah right.

S: …which is an interesting kind of thing to have to consider as a reader, and also as a writer of autofiction is…when you’re flagging something as inherently false, how is your reader or player or consumer meant to pick up that it is inherently false, if they don’t happen to know you? If they don’t know what actually happened, how do they know that this is you playing with the truth? Will they assume this is true? I’m not sure she put anything in there that we were meant to assume didn’t happen. I’m not sure she was playing with the truth – I think she was trying to get at the truth. But without knowing more about her I suppose it’s really hard to make that call.

X: Was it ever acknowledged to be based on true events at the beginning?

S: I think it was.

C: Yeah I think so and maybe not in the game specifically except for that author’s note at the end where it’s kind of like, suddenly not Nina the character speaking to you, it’s Nina who made the game – I think that’s the only time in the game where it acknowledges that the game was based on true events. But uhm, like, outside the game there have been interviews and articles that have been “this is a game about my first experience of like, hooking up with someone from the internet.”

X: Yeah coz it kind of feels like – who’s that author who wrote Sour Heart?

S: Oh, Jenny Zhang?

X: Yeah, Jenny Zhang, when she came to Australia and did an interview at Wheeler Centre she was talking about how frustrated she is that all of her fiction – even though it’s definitely fiction – is always assumed to be autobiographical…

S: Mhm.

X: Just coz she’s writing about, like, a demographic of her own experience it’s just assumed… and I think it’s like, kind of similar here. It’s like, does it matter if it’s autobiographical? Does it matter how much is true and how much it’s not? This is kind of more a universal truth of internet, uhm, intimacy. And like, I think that is enough to be a valid – frustrating, uhm, but valid, still…

S: If I was gonna think of where I would position it from a literature perspective – because that’s what I know, and that’s what I do — is, it is quite reminiscent of I Love Dick in some ways. It’s very confessional, it’s telling the story of someone’s relationship with someone else who doesn’t get a chance to…weigh in, I guess, and it is a retelling. It’s using real artefacts, I guess, with reimagined, and in some cases hyper-realistic…mmm

X: Re-enactments.

S: Yeah. So I think, that’s where I would position it. In terms of when thinking about literature which is what I do.

C: Yeah. Yeah, I guess, Xanthea you’re more of a memoir fan? Uhm..

X: Yeah. I love a good memoir.

C: You prefer it to…you prefer things that are passing things off as fully truthful? Or some version of…the truth?

X: Yeah “fully truthful”…whatever that is. Uhm. I like things that aim to be truthful. And I like things that interrogate themselves enough to feel like…anything that’s passed off as “this is entirely what happened, the truth”, I don’t believe… but uhm. Yeah. I think at this point it doesn’t matter who made it – for me, this has a larger truth to it, in some ways.

C: The universal experience…

X: I think it is getting at a universal experience of like, internet intimacy.

C: So you don’t… so it doesn’t matter if like, that experience, is making a claim to like, “this was my experience”? Like this is… or…

X: Honestly, I don’t think it matters. Like, uhm. I think it’s kind of beyond the point. And I think it’s why I’m more interested in stuff that’s made because of this work. It’s just kind of opening up to more conversations.

C: Yeah, sure.

S: I think I really…probably the reason I like autofiction as a literary genre, is because it interrogates that idea that you were saying of…does it matter or not matter if it’s true or not? I like work that plays with that idea, and I think this work is probably important because it does feel true, it feels like her version of events. And I think, I would definitely love to see more games that interrogate that idea of truth versus untruth. And I think…I haven’t played a lot of games like this, but I’m not super across all the games. I don’t know a lot of things. I play Animal Crossing, and the Sims, and Stardew Valley. And I don’t have, y’know, a large library, but when I do find experimental games like this I do seek them out, and I would be very interested to see what builds off this. I think in terms of that idea of does it matter if this is really her experience, I’m thinking of games like Emily is Away -

C: Yeah for sure.

S: Where, it’s very similar in some ways of, like, that experience of being on the desktop, being in the chatlog, having these conversations… And it is a different experience in terms of how, what you get out of playing that game versus playing Cibele.

X: Yeah and I think as well, uhm, making games around experiences that are, I guess popularly more marginalised, having that ability to play with truth and how much we know about things is kind of important. I’m just thinking back to a few months ago when I was really obsessed with Ned Kelly and there was lots of “based on truth” sort of, fictionalised accounts of Ned Kelly, but also, there are fictionalised accounts of like, the women in his life as well, so there’s novels around that. And how, I found, all of those novels coming together, all of those fictionalised entities coming together, it didn’t even matter at the end whether it was true or not, I just got a really interesting viewpoint of someone who has created so much drama and intensity and how that had affected other people. And I find that really, like, just as valid in terms of storytelling as someone claiming this to be the whole truth of like, a biography of Ned Kelly, which, I’ve never really gained much from. But, like, a fictionalised account of sister, I found really really interesting coz it was like, looking at, how…now I’m just talking about Ned Kelly. I’m gonna stop. I’m sorry. Uhm.

[Laughter]

S: What I liked about this game was that it felt aggressively female. And I mean, it is, it’s aggressively female, it’s aggressively confessional, and I think the gaming world needs more of that and I think it does, in some ways, carve out a little patch of internet or game, as it was, and opens a door. It starts a dialogue about what games can be – or continues a dialogue I suppose, I wouldn’t necessarily say it starts a dialogue but… I think the more people who understand that games can be for them, and games can be kind of art and games can be whatever they want and games can tell a story and games can be for women who have been made to feel that games weren’t for them by men, the better. Not that that’s what was happening here, but I can see that this game would make someone who had been made to feel that way feel that “oh games can be female” and that’s great and fun and cool.

X: I think that’s a good place to start, I mean finish, not start, finish.

C: Alright, so…

S: Let’s do it all over again!

C: Yeah, I think so too.

X: Any more final words?

S: Mmm, this has made me wanna follow Nina Freeman more and see what her other games are like. I haven’t played her other games, I feel like… it might be worth…

C: Oh yeah!

X: The date one is sick. [Laughs] I love the date one.

C: The date one, yeah, we played that? We Met in May, the recent one.

S: Oh wait, I have actually…

X: It’s absurd, I love it. You make a boy do weird things with his arms.

C: Yeah! There’s like a game where you grab his nipples…

X: Yeeeah, my dream.

S: Ohhh, I think I’ve played one of her other games which is basically just a very, very simple one.

C: How Do You Do It?

S: Yeah yeah I’ve played How Do You Do It, that was fun.

X: That’s funny actually, because, when we were playing it, I was like, “let’s make a game, this is like…I’ll play this game! I’ll play this game forever. Like. Give me a nipple-grabbing game.” Uhm…yay!

C: Yay!

S: Woo.

X: Thanks Nina…sorry we were so critical of your game.

[Laughter]

C: Yeah, uhhh, thankyou Sian, for doing this, and also thankyou Xanthea, for doing this.

S: I’ll see you when you get up to ‘E’ for Emily is Away.

X: I’m a sound person!