ANCIENT RITES
Interview with Gunther Theys by Daniel Hinds
(conducted February 2000)
Ancient Rites may not be the first name thrown out when the words 'black metal' are uttered, but they have been around as long as anyone on the current scene and produce a very unique version of the style. With all eyes on Norway for so long, perhaps their home base of Belgium has kept them a bit more in the underground circles than the likes of Emperor and Satyricon, but that isn't to say that Ancient Rites don't have a following. In fact, their fanbase is quite strong all across Europe (and beyond) and last year's excellent Fatherland no doubt expanded it considerably.
Bassist/vocalist Gunther was kind enough to take some time and answer a few questions regarding Ancient Rites, his other musical endeavors, religion, and the current state of the world...
Let me start by saying that I like the album Fatherland a great deal, but it is also the only AR album I've been able to get a hold of so far. Could you give me a brief summary of your other releases and your feelings about them now that some time has elapsed since their release? We have released one demo, one 7" EP, a split-LP and several split EP's. However the majority of the people only were introduced to A.R. after the release of our debut full-length album entitled "THE DIABOLIC SERENADES". We recorded our first two albums in a very professional studio where usually classical orchestras record their symphonies or soundtracks are being made. We feel this only increases the originality of our sound. We were always assisted by sound engineer (and studio owner) Louis Jans of STUDIO 20 who is a classical musician himself. He understood perfectly the essence of our music. Metal and classical music fit perfectly together for both are bombastic and can have a very dark approach. Using two different musical forms to express similar dark visions/thoughts/dreams. Interesting experiments are tracks such as "FALLEN ANGEL" or "LAST RITES (ECHOES OF MELANCHOLY)" which we first recorded with our usual equipment, afterwards we replaced our modern instruments by medieval ones. The end result is how A.R. would have sounded during the middle ages. We realize many bands/fans prefer a more primitive and poor production when it comes to Black Metal and that is fine by us but we always followed our own path. We seek a heavy/tight sound in old Metal tradition. We are satisfied with our first two albums "THE DIABOLIC SERENADES" and "BLASFEMIA ETERNAL" considering the time/budget available and even believe in our very first releases for they have been important steps in our career; nevertheless "FATHERLAND" our latest album is our most professional effort this far. We progressed as musicians and there was a bigger budget available which had a positive influence on matters like sound/production. Since there was almost no time pressure more attention could be spent on details. "FATHERLAND" was recorded in the brand new SPACELAB studios in Germany between 14.02 and 24.03 '98. Both our sound engineer Christian Moos and producer Oliver Phillipps are very talented classical musicians who are also active in the progressive Rock scene. They are perfectionists and checked every single note we played. Their demanding and very critical attitude certainly pushed us to higher musical levels. The fact they were not familiar with extreme Metal I felt as an advantage (despite the culture clash and stress!). This way we could be sure they would give us an original sound and maybe even come up with ideas extreme Metal producers would never think of. I was to be proven right, on "FATHERLAND" the fusion between Metal and Classical is more successful than ever before in our band's history. Oliver Phillips appeared as a session keyboard player. It is quite unusual that classical/ progressive musicians and extreme Metal musicians collaborate.
The artwork and layout for Fatherland is very well done (and also very readable, something a lot of bands seem to overlook). Is there a symbolic significance to the tree being chopped down on the cover? The painting represents the daily hard struggle to survive during the middle ages. Many bands focus on phantasy "art" when they settle for “medieval” illustrations. We prefer a more sober but realistic approach. The cover can be interpreted different ways: some say it symbolizes the destruction of the Holy Oak and the prosecution of Paganists and heretics by the Christian authorities in medieval times. Unfortunately we might be facing a lawsuit because of this painting. Although there are made alterations the artwork is heavily inspired by a painting of a long deceased master and now it turns out that the rights are owned by an author’s organization. Of course they demand money, something we do not have as a band. Rather unpleasant situation that can cost us our last penny. Now it is the time for our label to prove what they are worth.
I thought it was cool that you went through and kind of explained each song in the CD booklet. Even with this, have you had any problems with people misinterpreting the title 'Fatherland' and assuming you are some kind of ultra-right-wing group? Sure. There are many places we are not allowed to play. And often there are "politically correct" councils judging if our concerts can take place or not. They have people investigating our lyrics etc, although there is nothing there! Recently an A.R. gig could only take place after the promoters hired extra security with guard dogs and there had to be placed fences outside around the club. The mayor and club owners expected an attack of Arab immigrants because of the unholy character of our music and lyrics. Religious Islamic fundamentalism is also imported here in Europe by immigrants. And titles like "Fatherland" many (paranoid people) translate as plain Nazism while the only thing we say is that everyone should be aware of his/her own culture, history and roots. One can perfectly be proud of the own heritage while at the same time respecting other cultures/civilizations but often it seems to be under a taboo to have this attitude when a person is of European origin. Everyone should be able to cultivate their own roots. Why is it considered politically incorrect when we do the same? So indeed we are under a lot of flak but all the boycotts and hardship can be an inspiration.
Are you working on a new album yet? Do you have a title for it in mind yet? Everyone came up with ideas (demos with riffs, programmed drums, orchestra etc) recorded on a hard disc or computer but all is still in a rather early stage. Most ideas will be thrown away, we are rather hard on ourselves: "not bad" is simply not good enough! We are our worst own critics sometimes. I already have many lyrical ideas but titles are the last stage.
When you do an album, do you have it pretty much done when you enter the studio or do you come up with a lot of ideas while recording? In the old days, we had everything completely ready before entering the studio, nowadays there is much more room to experiment due to various reasons: there is a larger studio budget available, we have become better musicians and work with demanding producers who do many suggestions. Often parts are altered at the last moment and details are being added or changed, all this can change the entire "character" of a song. When this change is for the better, we are willing to throw away old ideas. Egos shouldn't be in the way of progress.
If you are working on new material, how is it turning out in comparison to previous AR? The track we currently are working on could have been on "Fatherland", similar atmosphere to "Mother Europe". Another track is very extreme and contains old school Black Metal parts while another song is more progressive, some riffs are very brutal, and other melodies are quite melancholic. Again a lot of variety will be offered on the next album. It is our aim to progress without betraying the essence of A.R.; nevertheless we wish to avoid stagnation.
From what I've read, your first label (After Dark) gave you a lot of problems. Could you tell me about that and how you came to hook up with Mascot? AFTER DARK turned out to be a total rip off and eventually ceased to exist leaving no penny for the band that had invested its own money in the recordings, artwork and photo sessions. In 1995, a deal was signed with Dutch MASCOT RECORDS.
Will Mascot be releasing the next album as well? We are not very pleased with their distribution in certain countries (like the USA) and lack of promotion outside of Northern Europe. Officially we have to release one more album for MASCOT RECORDS, though. We have to talk first.
Have you had a chance to do much touring (or traveling on your own) to foreign countries? What are some of the more interesting places you've been and experiences you've had abroad? We have toured throughout Europe and the U.K. many times. Life on the road is like an adventure, very unpredictable: one day all is going perfectly, the next nothing seems to work. Once we were stranded in England with all our equipment and without any money, food or a place to stay. Even that one we turned into an interesting experience, often larger than life, and continued touring in an alternative way in order to gain money to get back home. It is kind of strange to see we draw larger crowds nowadays while in the past only very few individuals were interested in our work. Guess this new Black Metal explosion must have got a lot to do with it. Since (especially in the beginning) we received way more appreciation outside our own country, we preferred to concentrate abroad. Nowadays our status also improved within Belgian borders. Most of the bands we toured with we already knew personally, which of course improved life on the road together. When mutual respect is shown we get along with everyone, no infantile rock star attitudes. We toured as headliners several times but also with major acts such as DEICIDE, CRADLE OF FILTH, MORBID ANGEL, METALLICA, MERCYFUL FATE, MOTÖRHEAD, S.O.D., MANOWAR etc. Highlights in our career were playing the legendary Marquee in London, the famous Thorns club at Athens, the very first big extreme Metal fest in Lisbon (sponsored by Coca Cola and the mayor!) and appearing on mega Metal festivals such as DYNAMO OPEN AIR or GRASPOP to mention a few. It is fascinating to see how crowds differ from country to country, city to city even. Whenever there is some free time available (after the sound check for instance) I leave the venue to taste a bit of the local culture. I’m thrilled when I have the chance to visit museums, monuments or ancient/medieval remains. All this keeps touring interesting. It often is hard and stressful, but there’s a certain charm involved too. Intensity, positive or negative, is what we seek.
Would you agree that the move toward a global community has resulted in a general deterioration in individual cultures? On the whole, do you think it is a bad trend, or do the positive elements (increased communication, ease of travel, etc) make for some kind of balance? I travel a lot and I wouldn't like every place to look or be the same. Personally, I prefer every culture to remain authentic, surely economical and spiritual evolution is necessary but one's roots or the typical local character should not be erased. There should be mutual respect between the different cultures but it remains a fact that everyone is a child of his own environment and there is nothing wrong with cultivating that. On the other hand, one shouldn't take that too far either, it is a pity that because of religious fanaticism, whole communities that once had such splendid civilizations and a glorious past today stagnate. Think of Iran: today a country in the grip of religious fanatics, an economical fiasco, once represented the mighty Persian Empire! Holding too fanatically on to the wrong aspects can lead to catastrophes as well. Difficult and interesting question, Dan! Nothing is black or white in life, always two sides to a coin! I applaud the fact travelling is more easy nowadays, but I regret the deterioration in cultures it often brings when people start to be ashamed of their own traditions and replace them by foreign life codes. I support civilizations holding on to their traditions but at the same time this very same "quality" kills innocent people when some blind persons take it too far. Dilemma!
You seem to be very knowledgeable about many of the other metal bands out there. How much time do you spend listening to music and keeping up on the scene? Is it hard to find time to do that and keep your own musical projects going full-time? It is difficult to keep track because actually too many records are released and unfortunately often by bands who seem to care more about their make up instead of the musical aspect. But sometimes a young band suddenly surprises me positively. I listen to music constantly, except when I'm reading or watching a movie. While answering this interview I have a self-compiled tape on the background which contains all kinds of styles ranging from the most quiet beautiful music to the most extreme noise. I like variety, I am an open minded person despite the fact I'm a Metalhead. When I'm working on my own musical projects, I avoid listening to bands working in a similar style. When working on A.R. I never listen to Metal, while recording DANSE MACABRE, I avoid Goth Rock/Industrial/Wave and when I'm active with DIVISION 99 I don't listen Punk/Oi! because I am afraid subconsciously one could get influenced.
Lately, it seems like a lot of bands in the black metal scene are taking their sound in a much more modern direction (Dødheimsgard, Satyricon, Kovenant, etc.). What do you think about this trend? I understand that bands wish to progress as long as it is not a turn of 90 degrees. METALLICA for instance should have changed name ages ago. I cannot comment on the latest DODHEIMSGARD, SATYRICON or KOVENANT since I did not hear the records you mentioned. In our band, only drummer Walter and keyboard player Domingo listen to these kind of bands. I was a bit surprised by the new look of KOVENANT (very much MARILYN MANSON indeed), but then again bands like C.O.F., DIMMU BORGIR or KOVENANT often appeal to the same (MARILYN MANSON or Gothic orientated) audience that like theatrical decadent imagery. I'm only familiar with the first two SATYRICON albums and when it comes to KOVENANT drummer Hellhammer, I prefer his work with MAYHEM and ARCTURUS which are more my taste. It is difficult for a band to remain interesting, too much stagnation is negative but so is too much change, a thin line it is, my friend. Besides what other bands do is not of my concern/business. Good luck to every one of them, but we walk our own path. Actually I'm mostly interested in the pioneers of the style when it comes to Black or Death or Heavy Metal. I couldn't care less for a Swedish band that tries to sound like German 80's Power Metal (which I found disgusting anyway at that time, too!), nor do I care for a German version of C.O.F. or a Mexican band claiming to be Norwegian. The originals have my sympathy, the clones leave me indifferent.
What is the current status of Danse Macabre? A band that is embraced by open minded Black Metal fans but not known enough in the real Goth world since our label only promoted D.M. a bit in the Metal press. Nevertheless, we already played several headline dates and the project turned into a real trans-european act consisting of musicians from Serbia, Germany, Austria, Greece, Holland, Finland and Flanders. We are currently working on a new album for a different label. MASCOT told us they didn't really know how to deal with our style or how to sell it.
What inspired you to start D.M. in the first place? Musically, bands like JOY DIVISION, BAUHAUS, FAD GADGET or SISTERS OF MERCY, KILLING JOKE, RED ZEBRA inspired me to work on that musical field. I discovered these groups already in the late 70's/early 80's. Nostalgia playing tricks? More recent bands I like in that style are CURRENT '93, DEATH IN JUNE, BLOOD AXIS, SOPOR AETURNUS, ATARAXIA. However D.M. does not sound like any of these artists. From a lyrical point of view D.M. enables me to express different emotions and feelings which do not fit to the A.R. concept.
I know some people in the goth scene (just like the metal scene) can be pretty narrow-minded. Have you had any problems being accepted with DM in the goth circles? Actually, my friend, I do not give a damn. Nor did I give it much thought. I know this sounds quite big headed but I started playing in bands to express myself musically/lyrically and I never lost too much sleep on what others might think of it. That is why I can take critics so well. Recently I read a review in this American magazine that takes the piss out of B.M. so also we didn't escape their pen. They wrote A.R. probably wears pink ballet trousers during rehearsals, that our drummer is retarded and that I probably sing with my trousers down. I found it really amusing. Once Kerrang! wrote they didn't like our way of dressing! Never knew it was a fashion magazine! Haha! Honestly, I couldn't care less. So when a 13 year old "vampire" appears backstage after a D.M. gig and tries to impress me with a "dark" grim or the lead singer of a famous Goth act tells me I should sing with a deeper "grunt" (like if his band is brutal!) I hope you believe me when I tell you it honestly does not matter one bit to me. I don't try to convince anyone of anything. I just do my thing you know. Nothing more, nothing less. I mind my own business; live and let live, I expect a similar attitude from other people. What matters at the end of the day is that I, myself, believe in what I do. Of course it is nice when people appreciate one's efforts but I do not want to sell my soul (only to the devil ahah!) to achieve that. I know exactly what an audience expects but when I do not believe in it I cannot play the game! I refuse to be jus another "romantic vampire" with plastic teeth and painted fingernails (although that sells the best) nor do I wish to impress ten-year-olds by taking photos with huge plastic swords in snowy forests. This stubborn approach often worked against us, but at least I can look at myself in the mirror and say I always truly believed in what we stand for. Come to think of it: D.M. has a mixed audience, I see Metalheads next to Gothic people, I see normally dressed persons in the crowd. All fine by me. Everyone who relates is welcome, the appearance does not matter. Same goes for A.R. gigs as far as I am concerned. Also with A.R. we do not attract one typical crowd.
I saw in an interview from '98 that you mentioned a project you were working on with Mortiis. Is that still in the works? If so, what is the material going to be like? The mastertapes are in Greece in the possession of the vocalist of WAMPYR SHADOW WOLF who was involved in that project, too. I guess in the future we continue working on it. Music was like a soundtrack. Typical MORTIIS actually which is only natural since he contributed most of the music.
In the same interview, you also said that Christianity is losing its strength in Northern Europe. Do you foresee a time when it will no longer be the predominate religion there? Do you think it will be replaced by a larger number of smaller, more individual belief systems or some other large religion? Many immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East moved to Europe and they strongly hold on to their Islamic religion. Recently many refugees from Kosovo entered Europe and they also are Islamic. More mosques are being built in Europe. I know many Arabs personally and they surprise me by how fundamentalist they often still are. In families I know who used to be rather well integrated in Western society, I suddenly see the men wear robes and women cover their hair and face again. I find it also rather peculiar that the USA and the NATO usually chose the Islamic side in conflicts. I think Islam will become the biggest religion since fundamentalism is increasing in countries such as Afghanistan, Egypt, Algeria, Iran where religious fundamentalist terrorists murder tourists from the West and even their own people they consider less fanatic. Bad indications. I believe everyone is entitled to an own opinion/belief but one should not be despotic about it.
What long-term impact do you think the highly materialistic consumer culture that has developed in the last half of the 20th century will have on society? Lack of humanity. Wrong values prevailing. Materialistic wealth will overshadow intellectual wealth.
Have you been to the U.S.? If so, what did you make of it? If not, would you like to visit here? Our drummer is considering to relocate to the States since he has a house with his American girlfriend in Virginia. He's the US connoisseur! I've been all over Europe, Asia, Africa but not America. Being the eternal traveler, sure I'd like to visit the US one day. I'd like to see the impressive nature (from mountains, to canyons to the desert) and immense nature parks. Musically, especially the New York scene has influenced my teenage years a lot with bands such as DEAD BOYS, RAMONES, ELECTRIC CHAIRS, NEW YORK DOLLS, JOHNNY THUNDERS AND THE HEARTBREAKERS, RICHARD HELL AND THE VOIDOIDS, SUICIDE. Even in pop: MINK DEVILLE, BLONDIE, PATTI SMITH, LOU REED, and TELEVISION. I like the N.Y. accent! Going to N.Y. would be a good opportunity to visit my old pal Dan Lilker of S.O.D.!
Do you have any long-term goals for AR or do you tend toward just taking things one day at a time? We continue our struggle, giving the best we can, but always expecting the least. All these years in the music industry have taught me all is unpredictable: one day god, the next day forgotten. All depends on how much money record companies, promoters or managers invest in a band to create a hype. Quality, authenticity or dedication mean nothing. How else to explain that a band who caught the essence of B.M. like MAYHEM never got the recognition they deserved while so many clowns who discovered B.M. overnight made it big? ARCTURUS made intelligent and original music but the band hardly got noticed, instead press and audience go crazy over Skandinavian bands trying to sound like HELLOWEEN! Goals, my dear friend, we gave up long time ago. We put our hearts and souls into the music we create. That should be enough. No mess, no fuss, no circus.
Thanks again for taking the time to do this interview for me. Good luck with all of your future endeavors and I can't wait to hear your next release! The pleasure was completely mine.
www.ancientrites.be
