#eye-lantern

In the first book she says that after opening up to him she feels like her chest was riped open, leaving bare her organs and shame. She let him see her metaphorical heart.

And here Pal is uncovering the ruined hole in her thorax, and the empty space in her heart.

I just think this is one of the best subtext to use while having almost the same level of banter on the surface

Also "she was garbage from neck to naval" which seems to be the area covered by the wounds in Nona. I don't know if "packed tight with a dry and dusty mould" is also going to become literally true at some point, but it seems at least somewhat likely. But I dunno if I would classify this as "banter", it's Gideon thinking about how she feels like she's secretly terrible for (in her mind) killing Harrow's parents

May you sell much more "Fuck herodotus" stickers and may your crops always yield plenty

@eye-lantern

The "good, die for her" is still Kiriona replying but with such hate and anger her voice is almost unrecognizable to Nona in her state. It's also a nice lapsus because she is accusing them of surrounding her by death and decay her whole life, but it also become about herself expressing her love in the exact same way that Crux is. Dying

Ahh, I figured it couldn't be her, since her like whole thing was dying for Harrow, and she also literally just offered to die for Harrow again, but it does make sense if she's also angry with herself here. Like, is this her turning point, where she sees Crux sacrifice himself for Harrow and finally realizes how little Harrow would actually appreciate people sacrificing themselves for her, and has now figured out how her assumptions about her own sacrifice were wrong? Or she just sees someone she hates doing the same thing she did and gets a new perspective on it? Now I'm interested to see how she thinks about that whole thing in the next book

For John as Jesus, Jesus was God made man, creating a link by wich humans could approach the divine, through his teachings and example. But Jesus dies like a man because while humans should strive upward, they will never touch God. John was proto Jesus and failed in his mission, eating God. Gideon is the second version, that is closer to the religious Canon in most ways. The advent of "false" messiahs is a thing and multiple have taken that coat in history. I mean Judaïsme does not recognize Jesus as the messiah. Ironically Jod is Alecto's "bad first draft dream". Which may make a bit more sense after the uninvited guest

Oh, yeah, from a Jewish perspective Jesus is basically just the ancient Roman Lubavitcher Rebbe or thereabouts

John being a false messiah makes sense from a Jewish perspective, since the messiah in Judaism is all about fulfilling the prophesies, etc. and if you fail to do that you're not really the messiah. But in Christianity, Jesus is the messiah not because he fulfilled the prophesies (because he didn't actually do that, hence the whole second coming mythology), but because he is literally God in some way. And John literally was given god-like power by Alecto, like from that perspective he did meet that metaphysical requirement, didn't he? I guess if we're looking at it that way, though, Alecto herself also satisfies the general description of "God who became human", maybe even better than John does. And Gideon isn't God at all, she's just John's daughter, but like, she doesn't have any of his powers other than her body can't die. Maybe my assumption was wrong. Like what are the actual requirements in Christianity for being the true messiah?

To the origine of necromancy, yes. Like I believe he has access to so much in life, death, organic manipulation and many other things related to the laws of the world that the normal necros can't even imagine. They have to study because they gained powers thanks to a mutation. He got an invite to look at the rulebook. I think if he had been less of a vindictive bitch he could have manipulated the acidity of oceans, force-grown forests, created algae capable of Absorbing carbon dioxide in the water, purge all heavy metals from people's bodies and "solved" the human made impact on the planet.

'baby-soft skin hammocks'...from a necromancer..gives me the icks.

I mean, I don't think it's any more gross/weird than a lot of other stuff that has happened in the book so far. John already wears baby fingerbones in his hair for adornment

I find it fascinating that John says he could cure cancer....and yet we have Cytherea...

@turtletotem:

@wellhappybirthdaytomeiguess John could have cured Cytherea :) at any time :) instead of letting her suffer for 10,000 years :)))) no wonder she wanted him dead

Oh wow, I didn't make that connection, but yeah, he could have. But instead he really was just like, the only way for you to live is if you become a Lyctor and help me kill resurrection beasts while you suffer from cancer for 10,000 years. I can't imagine what he was thinking, but I also have no idea what he was thinking by just letting the other Lyctors think that the cavalier had to die to achieve Lyctorhood

@eye-lantern:

For the Jesus comparison the nurse gave: she isn't saying it was what made the Romans kill him. Jesus (in the texts) knew that he gave too much for his own good. And he knew the Romans would kill him and he knew Judas would betray him. But he did it anyway because he gave himself to others entirely, even if I meant it killed him. She is saying John needs take care of himself even if it meant refusing to help some people, or he would die wich doesn't help anyone.

Which makes an interesting parallel with the actual Jesus parallel that is Griddle, who died for someone on the iron fence instead of a wooden cross,for someone that would have preferred her to live even if it meant not receiving her help. Gideon spends the entire first book helping everyone, without asking for anything in return, and it litteraly kills her. Maybe twice if we consider avultion. John may have had the apostles but Gideon had the self-sacrificial drive

Oh, right, I guess the sort of canonical interpretation is that Jesus died in order to save everyone else, etc. That is an interesting parallel, I wonder, since presumably Gideon is getting brought back to life at some point, probably by John I would guess, if John is ever going to tell her this story and this particular piece of advice he received?

I don't know if Jod is dreaming with her. To me it could absolutely have happened and she is just dreaming of a memory. The narrator never says something out of place, except for calling him lord, and he only says Harrow. Everything else could be an actual event where names are "translated" to something that makes more sense to harrow, and the crossed-out names are not replaced because she has no idea what to replace it by

@racefortheironthrone:

My interpretation is that Harrow is semi-lucid dreaming Alecto's memories.

That's true, I guess, this could just all be Alecto's memory. But if John telling Alecto this story actually happened, I guess that means Alecto was not around to perceive it at all while it was happening?

@eye-lantern:

I do like that we can get a vague time frame and something more of John's religious background when says he went to Parachute when he was younger. So he's most likely a Millenial or Gen Xer (since it seems that festival was from the early 90s to 2014). Not sure that says anything deep about him, but I find it interesting.

Just checked my ebook and the original text makes the mistake of saying “necromancer”. I never noticed before!!

Interesting, I'm surprised I caught that on the audiobook listen but not when I was reading in the ebook.

@turtletotem:

My money’s on “Ianthe seems to be operating in her own interests, and not actively trying to help Corona pretend to be a necromancer anymore,” for why Corona is upset. They’ve always been a lockstep matched pair, and now Ianthe is showing the first signs of doing her own thing and leaving Corona behind.

Yeah. Although, I think if Ianthe had been conscious and Corona had been present when John came and picked them up, that Ianthe would probably have tried to insist that Corona come with her and live on the Mithraeum. John probably would have sent her back to the Third, though

@eye-lantern:

She hasn't surfaced a lot a G1deon and he was away a lot of time, so the number of times she had to fool people might be low. I'm pretty sure it's nowhere close tok a myriad. Also during those times she is not talking as herself but acting, which might slow integrating an accent or way of talking, as it is a conscious change

Pyrrha absolutely said G1deon's original name, which is proof that she remembers things from before the Resurrection. After all, the way John wiped their memories was through a physical change to their brains -- once Pyrrha died, she wouldn't be depending on a physical brain to hold her memories anymore, it's all just soul.

But why wouldn't Nona actually hear the name in that case? That's what doesn't make sense to me

@wellhappybirthdaytomeiguess:

I wonder, really, whether Pash realizes that Gideon/Kiriona is her cousin. And I hope we get the cousins together in Alecto. Gideon having a living relative that is very much like her in some ways could be interesting.

@eye-lantern:

I think this chapter does a lot to explain the aversion Pash has for the Body (fun how it used to mean Alecto the dead woman loved by Harrow and now means Gideon the... Oh), she sees the spitting image of her beloved hero and aunt, un rotting because of necromantic fuckery. Also I don't think she knows the reality of her conception so she may think her aunt had to bone Jod. Which, ew

I didn't really think about that, but it does make a lot of sense. Actually, I kind of wonder now when BOE realized who both of Gideon's parents were. I don't think anyone who was left alive at Canaan House after the end of Gideon the Ninth would have known that she was John's daughter. Pyrrha was there for that whole reveal, but she had never seen Gideon before, I guess except as a baby when she and/or G1deon pushed Wake out of the airlock. So I guess it must have been that Pyrrha recognized her as the John/Wake child she'd just heard about from John and the Lyctors, and told BOE about it then, or maybe after John got the body back? I don't know if it's actually been covered exactly how Pyrrha feels personally about the whole killing John plot. I can see why she might be for it, but she also seems kind of like she'd rather just hie off to somewhere with Palamedes and Camilla and Nona and not be involved in any of this stuff any longer

@wellhappybirthdaytomeiguess:

While integrated ok, the 8,000 line is actually an old tumblr meme (https://memearchives.tumblr.com/post/133103879052/hi-i-love-love-love-your-blog-it-always-cheers).

Oh, you know, I vaguely remember that whole thing, but I didn't realize it had become a meme

So I guess the question about that line then becomes: "why unjust bodies?" Number Seven does say some things about justice there, but I'm not sure what it means by that

so we have seen the things coming from the tower already...but not in this book...

Ok, looking back, it does look like Canaan House is consistently referred to as a tower (or a series of towers) in the first two books. So Ianthe and Gideon are "tower princes" because they went through the trial at Canaan House? And John is trying to do the same thing again, and create more Lyctors with another Lyctor trial there? Makes sense, I guess

So, I think the 'you called me for help and I am made a mockery' actually happened in this book...when Nona was 'copying' Judith to get Ianthe to stop asking her questions. Because it was after that that the heralds dropped...and Nona had likely accidently called Verun for help when she screamed in the language of the RBs.

Also, from earlier, before Nona and Cam leave the apartment to look for Pyrrha: “Can you help me?” Nona whispered. “Can you do anything? Do you know where Pyrrha is?” But it only lowed sadly, like a cow. “That’s all right,” whispered Nona. “Sorry for asking.” Then: “Don’t do anything weird, okay? I’m having enough trouble right now.”

Right! I completely forgot:

And: