#echo discussion

I think Liz explains it pretty well and I don’t think it had anything to do with not wanting to spend time with Max. “I needed to take just one moment to remember where I end and where you begin.” Liz had spent every waking minute trying to find a way to save Max, she was relentless, single-minded, undeterable. And she did it. She did the impossible, but in the process everything about her life became about Max, her entire existence became defined by her love for him. 

Which is kind of awesome thing for us shippers, because you know ultimate, epic, giant love, but it’s also not sustainable for an actual woman so in this case the writers decided to mine it for Liz’s character arc.  

Who is she outside of this relationship? That is a valid question for her to ask, and it doesn’t affect or negate any of her love for Max.  She gets to be a person too, and have her own goals and aspirations. Her needing/wanting to do that wasn’t the problem. 

We see that she is being judged by people throughout the season for her life choices. Her mother, Charlie, ICE agent, Diego, but mostly she judges herself. She’s embarrassed that instead of being a great scientist, she’s slinging burgers.  

Liz was a completely independent woman before she found Max again. She was constantly moving, never felt connected to anyone including her fiance (I just couldn’t connect) where her work was the only thing that mattered. She ran like hell from people, places, even jobs, anything that might have served as any sort of anchor. Think about it... what kind of person just ghosts their fiance? Disappears without a word? That is just not done. Clearly she wasn’t in love with Diego, but didn’t she like him enough to at least give him the courtesy of a conversation? That is unimaginably selfish. The person that would take that extreme of an action, is not someone who is going to faultlessly slip into a committed relationship. Yes, Max is different, Max is her destiny, she is in love with Max, but that swing from unable to commit to anything to completely committed was B.I.G.

To be clear, I’m not really defending the writing here, because I think a lot of it is manufactured and it happened way too fast.  Given 22 episodes the transition from “yippee Max is alive” to needing to find herself would have probably felt a lot more organic.  As it stood it felt like she enjoyed one night with him and then threw herself into unethical science, neglecting time with him in the process. As an audience we needed more time of Liz just happy to have Max back and basking it, before she’s got restless and reckless.  

At the end of the day, I think we can make sense of Liz’s actions in light of what she went through. Liz got put through the emotional RINGER this season.  In how many scenes was Liz crying? Good grief, the poor thing. First it’s the grief over Max, then it’s an herculean effort to bring him back, the stress and strain of failure, the knowledge that Max was trying to pull the plug, then when he’s back he doesn’t remember her? Why only her? That must have hurt something fierce. Even after the epic, “I’m not better off without you, I’m not whole without you” speech, that had to be devastating. Especially once the euphoria of being reunited wore off. But once Max was back they never took a second to examine how it might affect her. Then she dealt with her worries over his health, all while he wouldn’t heed her warnings. None of that trauma was dealt with. Also Liz was clearly still upset about Max making the decision in the first place to bring Rosa back.   

Then onto all of that, add Rosa being back from the dead, and Liz watching her struggle to the point of overdose. Then her manipulative, absentee mother hits town in order to fuck with her mind some more, she deals with Arturo almost being deported, and then her ex-fiance is back. 

All the while Liz was relegated to being a small town girl working as a server in the family restaurant, and having that thrown in her face, when she clearly is a genius with infinite potential. 

Going Mad!Scientist in a bid to feel like she has some control over all of these things that have happened to her, in a response to all this unimaginable trauma, in a bid to reclaim an identity outside of the-girl who-loved-Max-Evans-so-much-she-brought-him-back-from-the-dead... actually makes sense.  Unfortunately instead of having the narrative recognize these things, instead of making it about her losing the thread in an attempt to take control of her life, they instead choose to frame all her actions simply as her ambition to make a better name for immigrants. 

Which was IMO a clumsy attempt at scoring some social justice points. I get the themes about immigration and it was a way to illustrate Max’s white privilege, and the extra obstacle’s Liz has faced, but that could have been done without using it to justify Liz’s unethical behavior and actions.  I know the show patted themselves on that back so hard for that, but it was a disservice to the character. Anyone of Liz’s intellect would have known that she could never share what she was doing in any way that would allow her to claim that glory for Latina scientists. So it came off as clumsy instead of nuanced, and we got this hand wave of an explanation instead of an in-depth study of a character who went a bit off the rails. 

These two are destined, they love each other. They will get back together. The only thing in question is the where, when, and how.

As to your question, Liz needs perspective in order to reconcile her own actions, not Max’s. Things would have been very different if Max had made any overture or effort after their fight, never mind a grand romantic gesture. Liz was sitting there hoping, waiting for him, he didn’t show up. She would have found a way to forgive him then, she wanted to forgive him.

Which I think is just more evidence that he wanted her to leave. That is VERY unMax like, so to me it just throws more fuel on the speculation fire that Max’s heart is failing (or something equally catastrophic health wise) and Max is hellbent on protecting Liz from watching him die again.

If Max had just lost his temper and had torched the lab in a fit of anger, and in the heat of the moment, because he was upset about the science and Diego finding out about the lab, by the next day, let alone by the time Liz left town, it would have sunk in what he’d done and in doing so he’d lost the woman he’d loved every single day during the last twenty years. If his motivation was just anger, then at the very least he would have sought out a conversation.

Oh what an interesting point.  I sort of assumed that Kyle told Max his heart was heeled after almost killing Flint, but as @echoapothecary pointed out to me, Kyle’s tone and words were ominous.  If Kyle gave Max very bad news about his health, Max’s actions make a lot more sense.  Destroying Liz’s lab to not only protect his family from Diego and his evil biotech company, but to also give Liz a reason to hate him and leave without him so she wouldn’t be around to see him die again.  That would put the sequence of events in a different light.  

Okay, but you can also choose to think about it the other way. At the start of the episode when Max is leaving the diner, he knows that Liz is lying about where she spent the night.

Let me repeat that, MAX KNOWS THAT HIS GIRLFRIEND LIED ABOUT WHERE SHE SPENT THE NIGHT. Her ex-fiance is in town, we know Max feels a bit insecure around him, the natural thing would be for him to suspect/worry she’d been with Diego, but, YET, despite all that, he sincerely stands there and tells her that it’s okay that Diego is there, that Diego is helping her and he displays no passive aggressiveness, no jealousy. He is totally sincere and authentic in that. Then they both deliver very sweet, very sincere I Love Yous and have a real goodbye. 

In that moment there is underlying tension swirling in the air, lies, a hot ex-fiance 10 feet away, but there is still deep love and trust.  So instead of thinking of it as tainted by the lies, appreciate it in spite of the lies.  

Yes, Liz is going all Mad!Scientist and lying about it, Max is hiding the fact that he’s taking memory serum, but these are not things that, to reference Steph, I believe are red flags about long term behavior or problems that will plague their relationship. I believe what’s happening right now is two people who are both going through something, but who love each other very much and they are going to get through this and have new levels of honesty, communication and commitment between them. 

I don’t think she said it was unsolvable??  She says he has some growing to do which seems true. But also in the answer below when she references ulterior motives, she could very well be talking about what Kyle told Max about his health. If it was bad news and Max partly blew up the lab because he knew it was an unforgivable act and he wanted to drive Liz away so she didn’t watch him die again, then I agree with Carina that he’s got some growing to do. 

TVLINE | I hate to boil it down to such simple terms, but Max and Liz are definitely broken up? Not just on a little break? They are definitely broken up, not on a break. Their interests are diametrically opposed right now. On a second viewing, I think people will notice there’s more to Max’s choices in the finale than he might be revealing. He blew up Liz’s lab to protect his family and to stop her from continuing her experiments, but there are also some ulterior motives there. He’s had so many secrets for so long, he’s just not a good partner for her in the way she needs him to be right now. He’s got some growing to do before they can reconcile.

Currently, my thinking is that any potential breakup won’t happen until season 3. I know that they are setting them on a bit of a collision course with Liz pursuing alien science behind Max’s back, but it doesn’t feel like there’s enough time to have that revelation come out AND lead to a breakup or that it’s big enough to cause a break up between them.  Unless Liz gets hurt. 

I say that because I don’t expect Max to break up with Liz over the alien science, but I do expect Max to break up with her, at some point, to protect her. If she’s put in danger by her connection to him or something of that nature. 

Or I expect Liz to break up with Max A) because she’s forced to in order to protect him or B) she’s convinced she has to to protect his larger destiny.

They’ve set up Max and Liz’s feelings for each other as pretty nonnegotiable.  Like they’re done. They’ve each found their soulmate in the other.  That huge love is what this story is at its core, so while I do expect a breakup, it’s hard to picture it coming from this sort of secret. I think there would have to be catastrophic consequences to what Liz is doing (with only 4 eps left) for this to lead Max to not want to be with her.  

Also when looking at the end of season 2, what does a break up here buy the writers or the show?  Maybe a cliffhanger? Perhaps they’re stuck in an era where they think people won’t come back if they leave them in a happy place?  Traditionally, CW dramas break up couples because TPTB don’t want it to get stale with them together.  With these quick 13 ep seasons, and Max being dead for so long, that hasn’t really been an issue.  Which is why I’d think they’d save a breakup for a bit further along in the series and have it be for big, epic, romantic reasons.