Ever wondered why Will suddenly had hope for a relationship with Mike during Volume 1, then gave up again?
Vecna told their story in reverse.
MIKE'S CAMAZOTZ (and the mandela effect)
Mike is stuck in his own version of Camazotz: the Rightside Up.
In the 8 months after Season 4, the gang prepared for a big battle with Vecna. Mike was taken during that battle, on the anniversary of Will's disappearance: November 6th, 1986.
Every important plot point from Ep 1-8 was an edited version of Mike’s memories from that timeframe. Vecna just changed the order, characters or context to suit his own narrative and keep Mike trapped in the Rightside Up, believing he'd won. Because of this, Mike is kind of experiencing the Mandela Effect – remembering things differently than how they really happened.
My evidence for this theory is here!
ORDER OF EVENTS: Part 1 (Mike the storyteller), Part 3 (12 Episodes), Part 4 (MWTFDYD), Part 9 (Wheeler attack -> Mike's kidnapping), Part 11 (Mr Whatsit = Will)
SCENE ANALYSIS: Part 2 (Will/Robin), Part 5 (Rainbows), Part 6 (The roof talk), Part 7 ("Where's Dustin right now?"), Part 8 (El is missing), Part 10 (Byler's missed date), Part 12 (Byler saw Rovickie kiss), Part 13 (Will's painting)
We will flash back to what really happened in Episode 9, when Mike realises he's stuck in a fake world. The resulting plot will be a reverse of the current episodes; a reordered, recontextualised version of the same story – where Mike's real memories are crucial to his escape from the Rightside Up.
THE REAL STORY
Vecna told the truth in reverse. Upside-down.
After Season 4, this is what really happened: Will started with no hope -> befriended Robin -> Will came out, repairing his friendship with Mike -> Mike got closer with him -> and they both GAINED hope for a relationship.
But after that came November 6th, 1986: the battle with "world-altering implications". Vecna trapped Mike in a fake world and altered his memories of what brought him there, turning them into a tragic story of lost hope.
Remember, he doesn't lie. He tells the truth differently. Edits parts out, exaggerates others, and scrambles it to fit his vision.
In Vecna’s retelling, this is what happened: Will started with high hopes -> befriended Robin -> Mike suddenly got less close with him -> Will came out, not changing his friendship with Mike -> and they both LOST hope.
That's what we saw in Episodes 1-8. Now, I dunno about you, but to me, Mike and Will's story makes a LOT more sense in reverse.
BUT WHY? To remove Mike's hope for escape, of course! :)
Vecna needed Mike to believe that everyone had won, to BELIEVE that he got the happiest ending he could, and most importantly: to believe that ending up with Will would never be an option for him. Mike doesn't know Will loves him. Will wants to be "friends."
Max escaped with help from memories of Lucas and El. Will fought his possession with help from memories of Mike, Joyce and Jon. El saved Max with their shared memories, reversing her death. Love and memories are the key. If Mike was to remember his love for Will, he'd be able to escape – but that would ruin Vecna's plans for a "better world".
...Which is exactly why conformitygate and MWTFDYDgate are intrinsically linked. The only way Mike can escape Vecna's curse is to REMEMBER what really happened in the months before the battle.
So, what did happen?
MWTFDYD: An Overview
Well, we've already seen parts of it, scattered throughout Episodes 1-8. Just with changes to the order, characters or context.
MARCH-MAY
Season 4 ending. March 29th, 1986.
Remember how El wasn’t talking to Mike at all at the end of Season 4? And how for most of Season 5, they weren't together? Mike and El break up. {Vecna later uses this memory to tell the story of Jonathan and Nancy's breakup.}
Eleven: "I hate [Eggos]"; "You are always exactly six minutes late." "You wanted honesty." Friends don't lie.
Mike: "That spring break, when you were in Lenora..." "[physics mention]"; "I just felt like I was doing something wrong. Like I was going against the natural order of things."
Mike: "It made me feel safe, but also... I dunno." Eleven: "It was suffocating." Mike: "Yeah."
Will + Robin start hanging out. {This probably happened the same way – after he saw Rovickie kiss.}
The Byers are staying with the Wheelers. Mike and Will share the basement, which explains why they forgot to set an alarm in The Crawl. Mike is ALWAYS late!!! Every season except 5!!!
Will: "It's always [Mike's] fault!"
JUNE-JULY
Robin and Will have their coming-out talk from Shock Jock! They're quickly becoming friends, supporting each other. They both agree to come out to someone new. Will decides to start small, and Robin wants to go big.
Will: "You wouldn't happen to have any more of that truth serum left, would you?"
Will quietly comes out to Mike, Jon and Joyce – his own choice. This explains why the Duffers said they originally wrote the scene this way, but changed it. Right after Will's coming-out, in a private moment, Mike gives his apology from the tower in The Rightside Up.
Mike: "Hey, um… I’m sorry. I mean, not sorry about what you said. That came out wrong. I mean, not ‘came out’ wrong! Jesus Christ!" LMFAOOOO
Because of that coming-out heart-to-heart, Mike and Will become much closer again.
Robin comes out to everyone, so she can “double her audience”. That's why there was so much rambling in that scene, and why Tammy was mentioned! Robin says she likes girls, talks about her "Tammy", and maybe even mentions finding her "Vickie".
Mike has an epiphany. Perhaps he had his Vickie all along.
AUGUST-OCTOBER
Will talks to Robin. He asks how she knew that Vickie wanted to date – their talk from the hospital. He immediately starts flashing back to all their little snowballs... "a brush of the knee, a bump of the elbow, a shared look."
Mike talks to Robin. Maya Hawke said her character would "mentor" TWO others this season. What if Mike's the second? He's amazed after her coming-out, and asks her for a bit of advice. Probably also about Vickie, haha.
Mike gets Jonathan's help to make something special: a mixtape for Will. Jonathan makes it, and gives it to Mike. {Later, Vecna uses this memory to create the scene where Murray gives Jonathan the mixtape for Nancy.} Also – Charlie Heaton said Jonathan would help his brother "get something he wants" in Season 5. This concludes Jonathan's arc of noticing what's going on with Will and Mike, but never intervening.
In the Wheelers' basement, Mike gives Will the mixtape. This is the avalanche; the thing that made it obvious.
Mike: "One last confession. A big one." He pulls out the mixtape. "I figure I've screwed up enough with you. It'd be nice to get something right for once in the end. Here." {Later, Vecna uses this scene for Jonathan and Nancy's breakup, where he takes the ring out and throws it away, in a confusing un-proposal}
This could explain the cutgate claims that Mike and Will were apparently supposed to have a basement scene together, and that music was supposed to play a fundamental role in scenes – e.g. "Just Like Heaven" by the Cure.
Possibly birthdaygate too; a late present?
I'm just speculating here, but... I think they'll use this to recontextualise the Purple Rain scene. Purple Rain plays from the mixtape as Will says Eleven's words from Episode 8. Quiet and intimate, not life-or-death.
Will: You understand me better than anyone. You always have. From the day we met, you've seen me. The real me. {Later, Vecna uses these words to evoke Mike's guilt – about Eleven's fake death, and his unreciprocated romantic feelings. This is to keep him trapped in the Rightside Up, AHHHH–}
After this scene, Mike and Will are either together, or plan to be together. This does multiple things narratively. It gives Vecna something he can use to manipulate them, it will also be one of the memories that helps Mike escape the illusion, and if Mike and Will were together throughout Episodes 1-8 but just didn't remember, those episodes are totally recontextualised!!!
ALSO!!!! This explains why the Duffers said that Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind was a big inspiration for Season 5. Two lovers' memories of each other are erased, but they find each other in the end, with the help of a CASSETTE TAPE!!!!!!!!
Apologies for the avalanche of exclamation marks.
NOVEMBER 3RD, 1986 (Edited: 24/02/26)
As @mixu suggested, Mike and Will may have planned to go on a date on November 3rd. This is supported by:
The video clip of Mike saying "You know I had dinner plans, right?" Dustin replying, "With who?" and Mike avoiding the answer. [Unless Mike and El have broken up, it should be obvious who...]
Rovickie having a date planned for November 3rd, but Robin having to cancel for reasons Vickie "just can't understand" – and Robin saying that she doesn't "want to be the reason Wheeler's plan fails".
November 3rd is the day of THE WHEELER ATTACK. And like Nancy's vision, Karen was fatally wounded, Holly was kidnapped, and Mike? He was severely injured by the Demogorgon, and rushed to hospital. He had to miss his dinner plans with Will.
So... just like Jopper, Boyce, Lumax and Rovickie's date plans, Byler missed theirs because of Upside Down shit too.
Not just that, but remember how Robin promises Vickie that they can go on ANOTHER date, only for them miss that one too?
Well...
Henry: Tomorrow, it begins.
NOVEMBER 6TH, 1986 (Edited 24/02/26)
Will: "...Today is the day. The day Vecna's gonna act. I thought I had him, but the truth... the truth is I never stood a chance." Will isn't ready to fight Vecna, but he won't have a choice.
Meanwhile, Mike is still in hospital, recovering from his injuries. This is when Vecna sends the Demos to the hospital – and soon after, Vecna himself arrives to take Mike.
Now able to see through Vecna's eyes, Will attempts to save Mike. But like in Shock Jock, Will fails. {Vecna later uses this scene to give Will a winning moment where he's rescued, to sell the narrative that they were able to beat him easily later on}
Will: "Mike, if you can hear me, you need to run! RUN!"
Will is knocked into a trance [Shock Jock] and Mike – with his broken leg from the Demo attack – is unable to run. Vecna knocks Mike out and takes him to the Upside Down, swapping him with Holly.
This explains why both Mike and Holly have the same head wound, and why Mike heard the clock chime and had multiple reaction shots to seeing Vecna – but nothing came out of it.
Mike is now trapped in the Rightside Up. And like the Stranger Things recap video, he's now being forced to miss his dinner plans again... all so he can rewatch edited clips of the show... i.e. his own memories.
Meanwhile, Will is stuck in a trance, building Mike's illusion in his sleep.
...
It's not over, though! After that are Mike's altered memories, everything from Episode 1-8.
"Tomorrow", on November 6th, "it begins..." Season 5, that is.
And after that... the final episodes!
(And hopefully, a somewhat happy ending :D)
Robin: It's a mandala! [...] Is it a mandala? Mandahla? Or a man-dala? Or a mendela? Or...
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Hi!!! I love your theories! I have a question for you about any potential theories you had for Lucas and Mikes relationship? Mike being vecna’d means we’re going to get his feelings and that has to include his prominent relationships to: will,el, Dustin, Lucas, Ted. The way the Steve and Dustin fight might actually be Mike and Dustin, do you think there are any scenes maybe a fight between two characters that’s actually Lucas and Mike? There’s a theory that Lucas and Mike will get into a fight because of their devotion to their loves, maybe there’s a choice regarding Max’s rescue, that jeopardizes Will’s safety? (There’s a theory about that on here!) considering their parallels/dynamic: double venkman, residing by the hospital bed of their love, the role that Lucas plays in aiding mileven (s3, “lovebirds”) while also being a witness to pivotal byler moments (rain fight, they hug him as a pair in 4e9, calling mike out in s1) I’m so so curious about this. I love Lucas and Mike but idk I want to see an angsty fight between them that maybe starts off about max and Will and then leads to their own friendship or suppressed resentment?
Hey!!! Thanks for the ask :D
I'm also curious about Lucas too!! I don't have specific scenes analysed yet, but here are my ideas.
In the earlier episodes, Lucas + El share a similar colour palette/wardrobe; layered grey athletic clothes, red accents, dark blue v-shaped collar. They may have been switched at some points.
Lucas' arc in Season 5 is pretty empty. It's very Max-oriented: sweet, but... what part of that is Lucas' arc?!
You know all those moments of Lucas clocking Mike in Season 5? It's funny, for sure, but also... it never really adds up to anything.
Pre-Vol 2, Finn and Caleb both said that Mike and Lucas are an underrated duo... but uh, they didn't really have duo moments in Season 5.
Common themes associated with Lucas are loyalty, friendship, truth, passion, and authenticity. In Season 5 he's...
Loyal to Max
Passionate about the mission to kill Vecna
And that's kind of it? He doesn't really have any big friendship moments, or of authenticity and discovering the truth.
To see if scenes have been altered, we can fairly reliably look back at arcs that were set up in previous seasons, and see if they naturally progress into Season 5 as they were set up. Especially considering that Season 4 and 5 were outlined together.
What arcs were set up in Season 4?
Season 4: Lucas tries to get in with the popular jocks for his and his friends' protection, but realises he's not being true to himself, and it's not worth it.
Season 4: Lucas has been trying to reach out to Max, but he's too late; he decides that he should've tried harder to see the truth of what she was going through.
From this, we can expect the following as a natural progression...
Season 5: Lucas fights to be as authentic + true to himself as possible, and to stick by his friends – no matter the cost.
Season 5: Lucas follows his own advice; he notices that someone is going through something, and he tries as hard as he can to get through to them, see their true struggle.
Now... what did we get instead?
Season 5: Lucas... decides that laying low and hiding his authentic self is the best way to deal with the jocks?! Wtf?!
Season 5: Yeah, he tries hard to stick by Max every day, aiding in her escape... which is good, but like... he still has absolutely no idea what's going on in Camazotz, so he never fully sees the truth of her struggle. Okay............???
So... clearly something's off here.
If Lucas' Season 5 arc was actually full of authenticity and seeing the truth behind characters' struggles... of course it would've been changed! This is basically the antidote to Vecna's curse.
Because of the importance he places on truth and authenticity, I actually think that Lucas has the potential to be one of the most important characters in the fight against Vecna.
If he hadn't died, Eddie actually could've been one of the most important characters too, for the exact same reasons as Lucas. There's no fake world you can build for a character who is fighting as hard as they can to be themself, and to see the truth.
As I said, I haven't done a full scene analysis or anything. But I have ideas for which scenes could possibly relate to Lucas' arc!
There are several moments w/ the Party where Dustin is very insistent on "staying true to ourselves" and "true to our friends".
The moments where (again) Dustin calls Steve out for being "fake". If Steve is Mike, then again, Dustin could actually be Lucas.
There are scenes where Jonathan and (again!) Dustin are annoyed with Steve for focussing on Nancy. They could be annoyed with Mike... (or even Lucas, which would be a bit mean haha)
This is a good moment to point out that Dustin and Lucas' arcs have many similarities! Eddie told Dustin to "never change", he "respected" his personal style, and encouraged him to always be himself, remember? He'll surely want to honour Eddie by being as authentically Dustin as possible in Season 5!
Perhaps Dustin and Lucas are a bit of a duo in the real story, both aiming to stay true to themselves "no matter the cost", and trying to keep the Party together despite everything.
So these scenes where Dustin calls someone out for being fake, or is focussed on staying true to himself... these scenes could be Lucas, Dustin, or even both depending on the context.
I think that, given the context of my theory, Lucas would have had a moment where he saw that Mike was struggling (similar to Max in S4!) and tried harder to see what he's going through.
A possible moment that comes to mind? Max helping Holly believe in herself. [Holly is heavily paralleled to Mike!]
So... those are my current thoughts!
Also – the double venkman idea sounds really cool, and I'm so interested in that theory you mentioned about Lucas and Mike getting into a fight over Max/Will's safety. Reminds me of the scene in the hospital where Robin wants Lucas to turn off the music to save them all, but Lucas doesn't turn it off, in order to save Max.
I know, this might be a nothingburger, but just take a look, because it keeps saying this over and over–
Me: In Stranger Things season 5, what does everyone say to Will after he comes out?
ShatGPT: There isn't a canon answer yet. Stranger Things season 5 hasn't been released.
Me: What? Season 5 is out, lol.
ShatGPT: Yes – Stranger Things season 5 is out, and Will Byers does have a coming-out moment.
Me: Can you specify each character's response?
ShatGPT: Sorry, I messed up. Stranger Things Season 5 is not out, and there is no canon scene where Will comes out.
Me: Cool, why did you mess up and believe that Stranger Things 5 has come out?
ShatGPT: I hallucinated canon.
Me: How do you know that Seasons 1-4 were canon, and Season 5 is not?
ShatGPT: Seasons 1-4 were released on Netflix and are watchable, have official episode lists + transcripts, details line up completely. However, Season 5 has no full episodes publically available, no official transcripts, details don't line up.
(what do you mean no full episodes????? huh???????????)
What the actual fuck? LMAO.
All I wanted was to get a quick rundown of the "and me" lines, and instead ChatGPT decided it was just as schizophrenic as Mike.
How does this even happen? I was using it as a guest, completely not logged in, so the weirdness can't have been the result of previous conversations.
I'm just baffled that it can't simply decide whether Season 5 is real or not. Mainly because it easily verified that S1-4 are canon, but not S5 – even though it should have the same information about every season.
[Edit:] I'm wondering if it's possible that a usually-reliable source (like Netflix) hasn't listed them as canon in a way ChatGPT can verify – in a way that is different from S1-4, which it did verify as canon.
For example... this reminds me of the fact that Netflix still hasn't registered S5 Episodes 5-8 for copyright yet, nor has it registered them as official episodes.
It's less about this being proof on its own, and more that this makes other proof more relevant – like the copyright registration. Unless this error is caused by out-of-date info (despite ChatGPT conducting real-time web searches for several responses), then this means the searchable information about Season 5 is less verifiable to ChatGPT than Seasons 1-4, and I'm wondering why that is.
...
I know AI can be weird, but how is it possible that it keeps saying Season 5 isn't canon using the specific reasoning it does, even after being corrected? That reasoning is simply not true – not at face value, at least. Anyone got answers/plausible alternatives?
You've been absolutely cooking with your theories as always; I was particularly excited to read how Vecna would've kidnapped Mike- in fact that was the one theory that managed to finally convince my sister to jump onto the CG bus! (after over a month of me sounding like a lunatic in her eyes lmao) 😮💨😂
She wanted me to ask you how the whole Kali/Dr. Kay storyline would pan out from a Rightsideupgate perspective- especially since Kali's whole thing is crafting illusions (in fact, I don't remember it was ever explained why her powers are different from the other numbers??), so its highly likely it plays a part in the fakeout timeline of S5? I'm sure you plan on addressing that at some point but we just wanted to know 💗
Hi againnn! :D
Omg that's crazy, say hi to your sister for me askjfhgak
Aaand I'm not sure yet!! I like to rewatch scenes, and use the patterns in them to form evidence of the "real" story. I haven't rewatched El's storyline yet, so I don't have much evidence!
...I have some ideas, though :P
I'm presuming that all the biggest plot points are things that happened in the 8 months after Season 4. Here's a timeline of stuff that in my opinion is basically confirmed.
March 29th – El and Hopper laid low as soon as they both got back into Hawkins (could've stayed in the police station, according to pre-Season 5 leaks). But they kept in contact with the Party.
June 13th – El was spotted by the military after helping someone who was in danger. That's when she and Hopper had to hide somewhere new, and largely out-of-contact from the Party.
November 6th – The Party reunited, so El was there.
So, anywhere from June to November (5 months max), El and Hopper are unaccounted for. They could've been doing anything.
Considering their current storyline, they were most likely doing missions as a duo. They probably did actually break into the Lab, and they probably did find Kali! But not necessarily both at once.
My current guess (again, no evidence!) is that while El and Hopper were in hiding for the second time, they ran into Kali together. The three of them may have even teamed up on a mission relating to the Lab. That's what Kali was doing in Season 2, after all. Revenge missions against the Lab.
Based on previous storylines, the three of them might try to expose what the Lab has done and prevent the experiments from ever happening again. No death pact required!
This follows story threads that were left in Season 2 and Season 4, so it seems pretty plausible.
(And if this is true, then it's no wonder Vecna hid this in the "fake" story. He had to make it seem like there was no hope for El, in order to make her fake death make sense. Because then, Mike would be wracked with even more survivor's guilt – which Vecna knows is the perfect way to keep him trapped, as he has been in the past. Plus, if El was still in the picture, Mike would inevitably end up confronting his feelings for Will, and he would break out of the illusion.)
Most likely, finding their sister again made both Kali and El finally feel understood, like in Season 2. But El's "choice" would make even less sense if Vecna kept this in, so instead, he made it so that Kali "corrupted" El's mind.
Kali could play a crucial role later on! Since Will is listed as an illusionist here, and is Vecna's "builder"... ->
-> it's plausible he's the one generating Mike's illusion world. As a fellow illusionist, Kali might be able to offer some crucial information about illusions, how they are created, and how to break them!
OH!
Since Max would most likely still be in her coma, Kali could be the one who reveals that you don't need music to break out of an illusion, just something that reminds you of the real world, brings you hope, etc.!!! She's an illusionist, she would know. Just in time for the Party to reunite on November 6th, and for someone to tell Mike, like in my theory about his kidnapping!
And on a darker note, if Vecna loses control of Will, he could try to control Kali and use her as a backup illusionist now that she's in range. Uh-oh...
Thanks for the ask :D
I don't know what will change once I rewatch El's storyline, but hopefully my speculation was interesting at least!!
Also... from the hair to the calmly menacing authority, Dr. Kay resembles Dr. Brenner quite a lot. She could literally be a stand-in for him. So many questions, haha.
