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Regarding your tags on the Lady Stark interiority / Tolkien thing, I feel like if Tolkien was ASKED about Bard or Thranduil's wives he would absolutely want to talk about them. "Oh, these are their names, and they mean this, and this is their entire ancestral line, and they met like this and their courtship went like this and..." Like, he wanted every detail fleshed out, and would never blow off a fan asking for them, even if he had to make it up then and there.
Hey, @ainedubhā! @joannalannisterāās a little overwhelmed with asks at the moment, and as your question was in reference to the tags she wrote in reply to my post and tags about Tolkien and female representation, she forwarded it on to me, hope you donāt mind! Note, she also deleted that post (because she reblogged another one with a further reply), so I canāt recall exactly what they said, but IIRC in reply to my tags:
#jrr tolkien #may have an awful proportion of female characters but every single one of them has interiority #that grrm is a tolkien fan makes me facepalm every time i read that interview
she wrote something wondering about Bardās dead wife and Thranduilās dead wife, both of whom are non-existent (except for Thranduilās being used as a manpain plot device in the Hobbit movies), and are something sheās groused about before in reference to the Dead Ladies Club.
Now, I pretty much agree with you regarding Tolkien probably responding with lots of details if anyone asked. (I havenāt read most of his letters, but theyāre quite educational and entertaining.) But the thing is, well, the problem of the missing wives is really a movie problem, not a book problem? That is to say, itās a function of Peter Jacksonās adaptation, rather than a problem innate in J.R.R. Tolkienās The Hobbit (except for certain elements Iāll get to in a moment).
See, in The Hobbit (the book), Bard isnāt a father, and neither is the Elvenking. (Who isnāt named Thranduil in the book; heās not given a name or history at all.) Oh, we learn in LOTR that they are fathers, sure, because Brand son of Bain son of Bard is said to be ruling Dale, and Legolas son of Thranduil is a messenger to Elrond (and of course becomes a major character in the trilogy). But in The Hobbit, these men are barely sketched out. They have no known family, no known children, no known wives... and thatās pretty typical of almost all the non-central characters of the book. They exist to play roles, they have a certain amount of characterization and interiority, there are sometimes brief references to ancient history, but other than that theyāre barely people, theyāre just kind of there.
Elrond, for example, hosts the dwarves and finds the moon-letters on the map; but he has no children (Elladan and Elrohir and Arwen), he has no wife (Celebrian, who went to Valinor for solace), he has no parents (Earendil and Elwing), he has no in-laws (Galadriel and Celeborn) -- he just is, merely Elrond master of Rivendell, ānoble and fair and wiseā, who ācomes into many talesā, but only has a small part in Bilboās. And thatās because, (a) The Hobbit is a childrenās book, with a first-person narrator telling the story, far less complex and developed than the later Lord of the Rings, and (b) The Hobbit was written fairly early on in Tolkienās works, before heād even created most of Middle Earth and its characters. (And the information Tolkien had developed already, he wisely left out of The Hobbit for simplicityās sake, except for the occasional tantalizing reference to the legendarium here and there.)
So it was with Bard and the Elvenking in the book. Bard is aĀ āgrim-voicedā descendant of the last king of Dale, he doesnāt think the dwarvesā adventure will bring gold to Laketown, he can understand the speech of thrushes, he has a lucky black arrow that he uses to slay Smaug, he helps lead the people of Laketown after its destruction and during the Battle of Five Armies, and becomes king of the rebuilt Dale at the end. Thatās it. The king of the elves of northern Mirkwood hosts feasts in the forest, gets ticked off when the dwarves keep flailing into them (because theyāre lost and starving) and disturb the giant spiders, gets further annoyed when the captured dwarves wonāt explain what their mission is, has another feast during which Bilbo helps the dwarves escape, helps the people of Laketown after its destruction, loves jewels and has an old grudge against dwarves (not the dwarves of Erebor, probably related to the Elf-Dwarf enmity of the First Age), leads the Elves in the Battle of Five Armies, etc. But both these men are just simple characters, with no connection to any other characters other than being a member of a race and their leadership, they have no families, barely any background.
However, because Peter Jacksonās adaptation of the Hobbit became three movies, putting a 300-page kidsā book on the same epic level of the 1200-page LOTR, the simplicity of those characters was no longer enough. Legolas becomes a major character in the story, as does Thranduil, and their relationship is prominent. Thranduil gains a deeply personal motivation for his enmity with Thorinās people and his desire for the Arkenstone (he contracted a necklace from Thorinās grandfather for his wife, and was cheated out of it), a reason to keep Legolas out of the fighting (his wife was kidnapped by orcs and tortured to death), an angsty thing about love, and much more. Thus the fact that his wife isnāt even named makes her very much a Dead Mother trope and Dead Ladies Club member (LOTR edition). Bardās example is much less egregious -- however, he too was far more developed with a much greater heroic role, and given three children who also play roles in the story (the daughters are wholly inventions of the movies, as is the sonās personality and actions), and a prominently nonexistent dead unnamed wife.Ā
So to be quite honest, these Dead Ladies of the Hobbit movies are Peter Jacksonās fault, not Tolkienās. (Or Guillermo del Toro, or whoever wrote those parts of the scripts, but Iām going to assume PJ.) Yes, it is Tolkienās fault that by LOTR Legolas is introduced and we know that heās the son of Thranduil son of Oropher but his mother isnāt mentioned at all -- but hell, if PJ could invent Tauriel, could invent so much about movie-Thranduil (elk riding! dragonfire burns on his face that he hides by magic!), the fact that he made Thranduilās wife a huge part of his backstory but didnāt bother giving her a name... thatās all on him, sorry. As for Bardās son Bain, heās only mentioned in LOTR because humans arenāt as long-lived as dwarves and hobbits and therefore the king of Dale by that point had to be Bardās grandson, and Brand barely exists but to be in Gimliās reports that the Black Riders had asked him questions, and to fall in battle in the northern front of the War of the Ring. (Alongside Dain; and that story is only briefly mentioned in the ROTK appendix.) That is to say, yes Tolkien didnāt create Bardās wife either, but lbr he barely created her son. The fact that in the Hobbit movies Bardās a widower with 3 kids with no mention of his wifeās personality or name or what happened to her is, again, all on Peter Jackson.
Now, Iām not excusing Tolkien for his severe lack of female characters, especially in the Hobbit. (I think Taurielās a great addition to the movies, and only wish theyād gone further with more.) But to reiterate, when Tolkien does have female characters, they all get stories, or close to it in the case of very minor background characters. In the Hobbit consider theĀ āremarkableā Belladonna Took, Bilboās mother (who should have been developed in the movies more since they were adding so much already Iām just saying). In LOTR, besides Gilraen, even dead mothers such as Finduilas, Theodwyn, and Morwen get personality sketches. And the Silm goes much much further with women, thereās a huge variety there, minor and major.
Aaaanyway, yes. I do think that if asked, Tolkien would have given tons of details about Legolasās mother, her history and lineage. (And whether she was still living at the time of the Hobbit and LOTR -- I very much doubt that whole captured by orcs thing would have been part of it, as thatās pretty much a copy of poor Celebrianās story.) Maybe not so much detail in the case of Bardās wife (Iād imagine she was also a descendant of the men of Dale), but probably a name at least. But I really donāt think that Tolkien would have ever done the GRRM sort of answer of āLady Stark. She died.ā, or a āI donāt know, probably dead by that timeā (re Sandorās motherās whereabouts at his burning).
Ah, if only Tolkien had done that 1960s rewrite of The Hobbit (to bring it more in line with the style of LOTR) and not abandoned it...
I haven't watched the episode yet, but I'm glad to hear you at long last got your Casterly Rock!
THANK YOU ššššĀ IāM SO HAPPY!!!!!!!!Ā
Itās been three hours and I havenāt stopped smiling!! The prayer circle worked, everybody!!! I got a clear shot of Casterly Rock, without any dragons or armies in the frame, I think Iām gonna cry!!!!
When you are just casually scrolling your dash and find weird aggressive asks posed to your fav and you gotta go to their page and scroll again, watching the drama in reverse. šµš»āāļø
I literally wish I had never gotten on tumblr today.Ā
Actually, scratch that⦠I wish I didnāt even HAVE a fucking tumblr today!
Youāre welcome! I love Finn dearly and was so disappointed to find that his celebration week was being run by antis who only loved their fanon version of him
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