Sundae Night

The Tragedy of Winston Manor

Our little treasure hunters/investigators journeying into the manor to find out the truth.

The incident of Winston Manor occurred on the night of October 22nd, 1863 in Yorkshire where a family of 3, Arthur Winston, his wife Isabella Winston, and his daughter Jules Winston, were all killed by bandits known as the Shane Gang as they looted and pillaged the manor for treasures. 

This is clearly very similar to what happened with the DeRoss family, except that Jules, the 8-year-old daughter of the Winstons was also brutally murdered by the bandits while Alice clearly survived.

One of the classics you can find in the manor. The Haunted Doll is an allusion to Jules.

The two girls are similarly described with Jules being said to have worn a white dress while always carrying a doll with her. She was a sheltered and carefree child and even drew just like Alice. And just like Alice, Jules was seemingly haunted by something that affected her mental condition. 

For those unfamiliar with Alice’s backstory (especially since it’s not always talked about), but Alice always suffered from something that affected her psychologically. In this instance, as a child, one of the reasons the DeRoss’ moved to the remote Oletus Manor was to help Alice recover from neurasthenia.

According to “Orpheus” in the Affection System: “So, as time passed, the manor was left abandoned until a couple bought the place and their family here to give their child, who suffered from neurasthenia, a quiet and relaxing environment to recuperate in.” 

Credit: V H.

Obviously, in the Affection System, “Orpheus’” story of the events leading up to the tragedy at Oletus Manor is told from the perspective of him being the child of the DeRoss’ family instead of Alice, but that doesn’t mean these particular words, at least, should be discredited. 

This image of Alice always stuck with me on how terribly frightened she looked, almost like a deer caught in the headlights. It is certainly not the disposition of a relatively healthy child at least.

For those that don’t know, according to Merriam-Webster, neurasthenia is: “A condition that is characterized especially by physical and mental exhaustion usually with accompanying symptoms (such as headache and irritability), is of unknown cause but is often associated with depression or emotional stress, and is sometimes considered similar to or identical with chronic fatigue syndrome.”

It appears to be a medical condition first named and popularized during the Victorian era where it was mostly associated with busy women and businessmen. And what do you know, apparently one of the treatments for it was electroshock therapy—how utterly Victorian.

Interestingly, we also know that Jules suffered from something else though it wasn’t neurasthenia, I believe.

In the lore of Winston Manor, we learn that Jules suffered from nightmares, supposedly because of the looming threat of drifters aka bandits in the area. We know these bandits were “The Shane Gang” and that the Winstons weren’t their first victims as a newspaper clipping found in the manor told of another family, a father, a mother, and their two sons were also killed by the bandits who raided their farm.

Jules also supposedly witnessed one of the gang within the manor itself, in her very room. Possibly the man was sent to scout the manor and Jules saw him. Regardless, it wouldn’t matter in the end given her fate.

What’s more is that Jules was certainly afflicted by something else than just anxiety and fear. Kind of skipping ahead to take a look at one of the anomalies, “The Pale Man,” who is more than likely Arthur Winston himself, it is said in his story that Jules started to change: “When she began to change, sleepwalking at night, speaking to empty air, singing nursery rhymes that turned the blood col, he dismissed it as childish imagination.”

He also summoned doctors and priests to help out her condition but it seemed as if nothing worked.

Additionally, according to the theories listed on the IDV fandom wiki, another cause of Jules' strange disposition is perhaps due the family lineage being somewhat cursed. The youngest child of each generation would claim to see something in the mirrors of the manor that no one else could see. The family would thus try to gather different curios to bring luck or protect the children. It isn't outright said why the family was afflicted like this, but the IDV wiki theorizes that it may be because the family became involved in mysticism.

The story of the red coral, a Classic, you can find in Cryptic Notes. It was supposed to serve as a good luck charm that warded off danger specifically for the children, but to no avail.

What I like about Winston Manor is that it’s not just a one to one story of Oletus Manor yet, the similarities are there to the point you have to wonder if the new things that seem exclusive to Winston Manor aren’t also clues we have yet to discover or even recognize in Oletus Manor’s backstory.

As far as we know, I don’t believe Alice herself was 100% aware of the danger lurking in the woods surrounding Oletus before the incident. We see this in Cage of Yesteryear where she is warned by her father and Bane that it’s dangerous to venture into the woods alone, but it seems they don’t articulate why exactly that is.

Speaking of this particular scene, it’s very interesting to point out that in Winston Manor’s backstory, Arthur knew full well about the bandits lurking around his manor (as mentioned before) but he tried to do something about it.

He went to the county sheriff practically begging for help and asked for an increase of security if he could send it. He boarded up the house and even sent the servants away. Arthur also wrote a letter to his brother, William, in London asking him to arrange private guards to come up to the manor after the 25th (which as we know was way too late). 

But it’s something to note that his brother’s name is William which is similar to Villhelm Lamb, the first name being apparently the Scandinavian form of the name William or Wilhelm. 

That’s why I couldn’t help but think of the scene in Cage of Yesteryear where it pans to the desk of Alice’s father to show an envelope with the name “The Lord Melbourne” which is just one of the titles Villhelm goes by. Makes me wonder if Alice’s father, Dennis, also was trying to do something about the bandits or was trying to address his concerns to Villhelm. 

If the letter was something along the lines of “Hey my dear brother in Christ, bandits are roving the area and I only have my gamekeeper and an old man as my first line of defense. The police are no good so if anything happens to me, please look after Alice” then that would explain how Villhelm Lamb learned about Alice and thus eventually succeeded in adopting her.

Honestly, the whole affair regarding Winston Manor is just sad especially knowing even the little one didn’t receive mercy.

The outline of Arthur's body as shown in the Cryptic Notes lore video one can unlock in game.

Seemingly, the first to go was Arthur himself. The family was having dinner when the bandits came in and killed Arthur. The outline of his body is shown on the wall behind the dining table, bloody yet nearly matching the patterns on the wall.

Isabella's escape route which ended with her unfortunate death.

After that, Isabella tried to escape through the backdoor but it was locked, then she tried to run upstairs, bloody and frightened and possibly carrying Jules (or not, we don’t know besides the fact the mother and daughter got separated at some point). Unfortunately, once she reached the top of the stairs, at her limit or perhaps the bandits caught up with her, she became the next to die. 

That leaves Jules who made it back to her nursery and hid under the bed after taking her shoes off to help her stay quiet. This safety measure had already been written as a note by her mother beforehand, once again showing how the whole family were aware of the danger they were in. 

However, the bandits still found young Jules and without mercy, killed her as well.

Now, we know in Cage of Yesteryear, things were a little different as the first one we saw die was Alice’s mother before we witnessed the untimely demise of her father as well. If you listen to the bandits in CoY, we have confirmation that one reason they were so efficient at gaining access to the manor to raid and kill were “Thanks to the old man and his sickly wife” referring to “Orpheus’” parents.

Interestingly, while it appears that Jules was the only child at Winston Manor, the family portrait one can find in game tells a different story.

The family portrait shows a man, his wife, and son. The figure sitting on the floor could be another child or a doll, but it seems like another human being at least.

It’s very reminiscent of “Orpheus” usurping Alice’s story and making it his own. Heck, if you pay close attention to the portrait in the lobby interface of Cryptic Notes, you will notice it’s a family portrait of the DeRosses and Blanches with “Orpheus” instead of Alice. 

You have to peer real closely but you can make out "Orpheus" with the adults with slashes across not just his father's face but his mother's face and his own face as well.

In the main story, it is speculated that the one who slashed the faces of the Blanche family is "Orpheus" himself as this portrait is within a hidden room that only those who lived in the manor during the time the DeRoss' owned it would know how to access it. We see this in Ashes of Memory when Alice is able to find it again.

We also know that "Orpheus" more than likely holds resentment and anger towards not just his parents for the deaths of the DeRoss family, but towards himself as well.

Evidentially, the one who slashed Arthur’s face must have blamed him for the bandits raiding the manor and massacring the family just like Mr. Blanche had been the cause of such a thing. 

Interestingly, according to another theory proposed by the IDV fandom wiki, it is possible it truly was Arthur who was the real danger to the family and the one who truly murdered his family. This is evident in the lore of the Shane Gang members, "Clumsy Raider" and "Nightcrawler" where

Part of the story for "Clumsy Raider." It's clear that the murders had already started when he broke into the manor with the gang.

Part of the story for "The Pale Man" who is representative of Arthur. Whatever madness overtook him that night may have caused him to kill his wife and daughter.

Anyways, in the end, the investigation team/treasure hunters who ventured into the manor to learn more about tragedy that happened 10 years before their time, came away with more questions than answers on the truth of Winston Manor’s tragedy. However, one of them deduced that there was more to the tragedy that they couldn’t see.

This…makes sense since we know the true danger was within the manor in the form of “Orpheus’” father. But there appears to be more that this investigator is implying since there is actually quite a lot of supernatural factors within the manor. As evident above, something caused Arthur to go mad and it is clear it wasn't just the stress and anxiety over the impending danger the bandits presented.

And this is where we turn to look properly at the anomalies and Classics of Winston Manor.

The Anomalies and Classics Hold the Key to the "Truth"

Titled the "Cursed Sapphire," this is one of the important keys to learning what afflicted the Winston Family.

This is clear when one looks at the anomalies. A couple of them appear to belong to the Shane Gang, the “Clumsy Raider” and the “Nightcrawler” who became trapped to forever replay that night of October 22nd over and over again in a cycle of desperate flight to escape. It’s not completely understood how or why they also remain trapped but a part of the story behind “Nightcrawler’s” fate stuck out to me:

Something supernatural really is afoot at Winston Manor and it appears to be dragging everyone who dares enter its doors into its curse. Reminds me of how the games go with Oletus Manor, both survivors and Hunters alike who venture to the manor end up suffering and usually dying in their quest of fulfilling their innermost desire.

One of the forms the "Wraith" can take. He can throw his chain towards players to hook them towards him. Very familiar, eh?

Another anomaly of note is “Wraith” who is basically Bane in story and gameplay. There isn’t too much to say here about him besides his story parallels Bane’s in that “Wraith” also was the gamekeeper of the manor and patrolled the grounds of the manor. He also alerted the family, namely Arthur, to the bandits coming into the area.

And just like Bane, he was also too late in trying to rescue the family from their terrible fate. However, unlike Bane, “Wraith” was found dead at the manor gate, having never escaped that night he is forced to play out repeatedly, always one step behind in saving the ill-fated Winston Family.

Not a 100% similarity, but he does resemble both Arthur and Dennis is some ways (see below).

Dennis DeRoss and Arthur Winston respectively. Both the misfortunate patriarch of their families who were doomed to suffer an accursed fate.

Moving onto the Classics. Well, this one is fairly obvious since they already talked about the similarities the sapphire has to Alice’s necklace. At the time of writing this, I have unfortunately not unlocked all the lore regarding the “Cursed Sapphire” necklace since unlocking lore of Classics is dependent on how much you collect (and for the sapphire the quality you get). It’s basically RNG unfortunately, but hopefully I will unlock it all sooner rather than later.

Anyways, the necklace is peculiar in the fact that it was once owned by the old head of the Winston Family, Arthur’s own father, who was said to have lived to the age of 99 and yet looked younger than his age. But, the old man who never took off the necklace was empty inside. It even mentioned that if a funeral hadn’t been done for him, many would’ve thought he was dead years ago.

So yeah, despite being so beautiful, it’s definitely holds more than just beauty. Not to mention that I just saw this as the third story behind the necklace on the IDV fandom wiki:

Blue stone, blue stone, Father hangs it on his son's neck. Death comes knocking at the door, Sees the stone and turns to leave. Blue stone, blue stone, Inside lives an old friend. The old friend says let me go, Father says wait a while longer, Wait until my son's hair turns white.

It is implied through the poem written on the back of the necklace that the "Cursed Sapphire" literally holds "doom" within its gem. The poem is as follows: "I start in the deep / I hide in the bloom / I end in the gem." Ironically, it is theorized the necklace is the one protecting the wearer from dying, yet it sounds like its a double-edged sword.

I just can’t help but think how just hours before the grisly deaths of Alice’s parents, that this same necklace (more or less) was given to her as a birthday present from her father. By the way, I’m not sure we ever knew what her mother’s birthday present was but perhaps we will find out in a future story installment.

What’s terrible is that Alice eventually was labelled as a curse and “A Bringer of Doom” due to her lone survival from a tragedy that took place at a manor already stigmatized by unsavory rumors and whispers of curses. And yet, she still carries that necklace around her neck to this day.

I doubt Alice would tie her misfortune to a necklace as she doesn’t seem the superstitious type but it’s possible that necklace has a slightly larger role in the story then we realize.

Alice can't die as long as she possesses that necklace, but those around her can indirectly become effected by whatever "doom" such a necklace may bring because the rules of "equivalent exchange" must be met. Blessings can only come to be if there are curses that exists after all.

Rather or not this particular sapphire necklace truly has a larger role in the main story is up in the air at this point. Only time will tell.

Well, I think I’ve written enough. I apologize if this became a little disorganized but I do hope this helped those contextualize the parallels between the incidents at Winston and Oletus Manors. Actually, I did want to do a little rundown of some little things I noticed and saw others point out about Cryptic Notes. This is not an extensive list, by the way. I definitely may have missed something.

Little Details in Cryptic Notes

The Balloons 

The balloons found in Cryptic Notes are also the same ones that survivors often find themselves strapped helplessly to after being downed by the Hunter. They’re just more creepy and annoying in this mode.

You guys see the resemblance?

2. The Painting of Persephone

I mentioned this in an earlier post about my initial impressions on Cryptic Notes. This painting is the same one we see in Cage of Yesteryear in Melly’s room. We also see it in one of the promotional videos for the main story installment as well though they replace Persephone with Melly.

The original painting of Persephone vs. the one replaced by Melly.

3. The Painting of Death

Similar to the painting of Persephone, you can find this painting sometimes in Winston Manor here and there. This same painting is found in Norton's room in Cage of Yesteryear.

The painting as seen in Cage of Yesteryear.

4. The Painting of Die Toteninsel (Isle of the Dead)

Speaking of paintings, this one is found in Cage of Yesteryear as well and was featured in a little gameplay segment.

5. The Names of the Shane Gang

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the reason we technically have such a thing as the Conan Doyle Estate crossover.

This may be a stretch but I saw that the names for the main members of the Shane Gang were Daniel Shane, Patrick Doyle, and Colin Fleming. I couldn’t help but think of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes.

As for the other two names, I’m not sure. I looked it up since Fleming sounded familiar but if we’re talking about notable people with that name, I saw two which were Alexander Fleming, the one who discovered penicillin and Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond. But there are so many Flemings so I may have missed one that seemed pertinent to IDV. 

As for Daniel Shane, the leader of the gang, again, not sure. But the first name to pop up in my mind was Daniel Shays who was an American solider during the American Revolutionary war and is known for leading an uprising in response to a debt crisis on increased efforts to to tax the people (appropriately called Shays’ Rebellion).

Not sure if this is what they were going for in naming the gang members these names but I feel like with most things IDV that the writers for this stuff tend to be purposeful in their intent when writing the lore and adjacent stuff. 

Namely I want to start off with Florian and "Orpheus" because oddly they kinda oppose each other in a way, almost like a foil to each other. If you read my post linked above, you can kinda get a feel for that in their essence trailers/backgrounds:

Fox was always good at showing a face others want to see, but he still hopes that someone will be able to resist the muddy waters of desire-- But perhaps this is just another desire, concealed under the name of morality. (From the essence backstory on the IDV fandom wiki)

“At this time, he was no longer the young man who knew nothing about the world, but the incarnation of everyone’s desires, the incarnation of the abyss of extreme evil.” (From "Nightmare's" Abyss design notes on the IDV fandom wiki)

Sounds like "Orpheus" is the core of the people's desire which makes sense main story-wise if it is to be believed he is the one behind all those invitations promising what the person most wants/desires. On the flip side, Florian can somehow see through the truth behind the facade of these desires and aims to stamp it out through conflagration (because of course fire is ALWAYS the solution).

But there is a particular thing Florian says in his essence video:

"Only through conflagration before the eyes of the masses

can we neutralize the wicked"

Combine that with what he said about "the truth once blinded by desire will be revealed" made me think of one particular line from the backstory of Oletus Manor which is posted on the IDV fandom wiki (because where else would it be?):

"Until an accident happened, about 10 years ago, the mystery of this manor was finally lifted. A fire broke out in an area of ​​the manor, which destroyed most of the area."

Even in ToR we only see the fire start to spread, not how it was caused. Yet, it's amazing that a fire so large didn't cause any deaths weirdly enough.

I always found the presence of such a fire breaking out at the manor during the final manor game odd because:

No one died because of the fire, though there were casualties.

The survivors were on the ground positioned as if they were holding a ceremony, a ritual if you will.

"...the cause of the fire was the explosion of the incinerator in the absence of supervision, not deliberate arson."

Okay, sure buddy, whatever you say. Besides how it just feels like it feels a little to coincidental that a fire broke out while a ritualistic ceremony was happening, it is to be noted that it is because how seemingly big this fire was that the mystery of the manor was lifted.

Considering Fin's recent birthday letter mentioning "a strange fire at a remote manor" and this image of Oletus burning from his trailer and ToR:

I wonder if Florian had the whole article? That would mean he may also know about the DeRoss' since the ToR article has a picture of them to the left of the burning image of the manor. Not sure what that would mean to Florian, however, but I can wager some guesses...

Not gonna lie, if Florian did have something to do with the fire at Oletus, that would mean he started TWO fires that screwed with "Orpheus" and Alice's lives if we count the White Sand Street Orphanage fire (refer to Alice's 3rd birthday letter).

Bro really loves to be at the scene of the crime breaking up "Orpheus" and Alice's relationship by indirectly keeping them apart.

After reading Alice's 3rd letter, this scene both pains me and unfortunately amuses me a little because this dude had no clue of the repercussions.

This GIF sums up my feelings pretty well tbh

By the way, speaking of ritual, Cryptic Notes mentions a kind of ritual occurring in its lore:

The largest room on the second floor was the gallery, better preserved than the others, because almost nothing here was easy to move.

On the long table lay a white funeral cloth. It was not folded neatly, but it had clearly been placed there on purpose. Beside it were several candles, wax frozen on the floor. There was also an open prayer book, another one.

I picked it up. The pages were yellowed and brittle, but the text was clear. It had stopped on the Book of Job.

“The Lord gave, and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

“The Lord gives, and the Lord takes,” Sage translated in a soft voice.

“These were left after the murder,” Warrior judged. “The cloth, the candles, the prayer book. someone came here after it happened. The one who handled the aftermath. Maybe a relative, maybe the parish priest. The obituary downstairs may have come from him, too.”

“He held some kind of rite for the dead.”

“Only briefly. Look at the candles. Less than an hour.”

Three lives. One hour.

This time, were their prayers heard?

Can't help but think of Fin's one and only sticker in the game currently titled "Pray." I've talked before about how religion may have affected Fin to be who he is today. Makes me wonder if there will ever be some more lore in that direction.

Another thing about "Orpheus" and Florian I find interesting is that they appear to have opposing yet similar views on memories. Now, that sounds paradoxical a bit but let me explain.

"Orpheus" clearly can't let go of the past, not in the way Alice has (who only appears to want to revisit the past i.e. the manor incident because she wants to find the truth). I don't have to get into that too much since we all should know the lengths he would go to not only restore his lost paradise but also string along the person he desires most to see and reconnect with.

On the other hand, Florian who held trauma of his own from his parents' deaths appears to have moved on. While it is clear he cherishes memories just as much as "Orpheus" (and Alice), he has moved on. Granted circumstances are different, but it feels as if he doesn't want to be held down by such terrible memories.

Except this is wrong. Florian is similar to "Orpheus" because his memories of the past still manifest in slightly more subtle ways. I wrote a post some months comparing Florian and Alice's experiences at the orphanage with the former being hailed as a "miracle" while the latter was condemned as a "curse."

I concluded that while Florian is the "miracle," he is actually more of a "curse" than Alice because he is still chained to his parents' deaths and seeks some of that missing warmth/comfort through the very flames that caused their demise. He ends up becoming an arsonist because of that.

📝 Both men stay hooked to their past and yet, while one confronts it with a thirst for revenge, the other hypocritically acts as if he's free from it. Both remain ensnared at its mercy, however.

📝 Other little things about them I find just trivially interesting is the fact that I like how "Orpheus" birthday is April 2nd, exactly a month before Florian's which is May 2nd.

📝 Both have done some...rather immoral stuff due to their past.

📝 Both have done their best to look after Alice ("Orpheus" in main story lore specifically in CoY and Florian in COA IX specifically in the end when her amulet broke and only he could help her).

📝 They also both have a particular interest in her (I mean, this is OBVIOUS with "Orpheus" but with Florian that only appears to be the case in COA IX unless we want to count his interest into the manor from his trailer and the possibility he learned about her rather it be in the papers or at the orphanage but given it's still speculation, I'm not sure if I can count that.)

I'll never get over this image. "Orpheus" allowed this creature (as someone from my streams called him) to get this close to Alice.

Mind you, I also like Richard and Edgar's dynamic here too. Seems like everyone was grouped in twos in this COA. Evelyn is the odd one out but I group her with Alice and Florian (or really the former) since Evelyn is seen to be particularly caring of Alice as well.

I still think about this scene from the daily Rooftop Rendezvous login stuff. The way he initially framed this felt weirdly ominous to me like he was putting pressure on Alice for...something. Now I realize, he was probably just desperately hopeful he would be able to share his lonely world with someone else who could see what he could see.

📝 Both appear harmless and relatively pleasant people at first but they both can be dangerous in their own right.

📝 Both have "parental custody" of "Memory" (okay, hear me out. After Alice's 3rd birthday letter, Florian's fire was the catalyst that created "Memory" in Orpheus' mind, so...yeah...that's how my own mind works...)

Anyways, moving on from comparing those two troublesome men, I can't help but talk just a "little" about Fin and Alice, too.

I as a Alice and Fin main and as someone who likes them a lot, naturally think about them a lot in terms of the story and find it interesting how there are some parallels between them especially since at first I thought they were completely different and had nothing to do with each other.

But I do love the fact that both are investigators in their own right. Makes sense since Florian's title little is "Fire Investigator" and not "Firefighter" like...well, like I would've thought he would be called, but this man definitely is NOT just investigating the root cause of fires in his area.

(Left) Articles about Oletus, one of it being "For Sale" while the other is it burning (presumably "the strange fire" mentioned in his 2nd letter).

(Right) An Article on The Arms Factory (it gets cut off/is blurry but trust me, guys) with a pinned "Reconstruction" message on it (at least I THINK that's what it says).

There's another article but it's unreadable and the image is so blurred who knows what it is but I always envisioned a person...

From the Ashes of Memory Concept video. Alice has the same "For Sale" article that Florian does along with one on Arms Factory but naturally her line of work along with her personal interests have her investigating...everything really.

Another thing that I thought was interesting that is non-canonical but may be hint at some sort of main lore parallel is COA IX in general. At the end of this year's COA story, only Florian and Alice are able to see the "true face" of this so-called paradise.

It's not clarified in the PV, but I do believe according to the lore that only Florian and Alice can see the actual reality of the Holy City.

Florian also writes this in the team notebook (or whatever you want to call it) on this scene suggesting that only they can see "reality."

This is reflected a bit in the music video as well:

While Edgar and Evelyn get splashed with colors of blue (which weren't there before) and Richard appears to be experiencing some sort of corruption (spillage? lol?) around his neck, Alice and Florian remain untouched:

Have no idea why Florian is out here acting like he's celebrating all of this though. This has always bothered me about this scene since Alice clearly senses they're running out of time before the cycle restarts, but Florian is acting like it's all chill~ (While we know he isn't a traitor of any kind like some thought, he still has a lot to explain and I do believe he still knows more than he let on.)

Again, Alice's expression looking back at Florian not only makes sense but it kills me (cause she's like "Oh, he was a mistake to bring along.")

Ugh, if only we got just a little more lore on COA IX, I still have so many questions...

Yet, I think this is a sign of both knowing the truth of the Holy City which is basically a stand-in for Oletus Manor, I believe.

I mean, Richard receiving a letter in the first 2 seconds of the trailer which is identical to the invitational letter the manor sends out isn't the most tall tell sign I don't know what to tell you.

Anyways, that is enough. I rambled like there was no tomorrow and to be honest, I did NOT get my thoughts out articulately. Writing like this again made me realize how tough it was cause I've sat here for...too long wondering how to word all this.

Whatever, it's not that important nor will many read this which is good cause truly...what am I on about? Still, I find it amusing the connection between Alice and "Orpheus" which felt so sacred and insular is being ruined...sabotaged (??) by, out of all people, Florian.

And mind you, I feel this way as a newgen player. From what I heard, some older gen players have difficulty still in completely separating Alice from "Orpheus" (as in not viewing her completely as her own person but as an extension of him thanks to associating her heavily with "Memory" and "Orpheus'" interpretations/warped memory of Alice as a child).

There's just something so wrong about that in a way but also very interesting. I really do wonder what it would be like if we put "Orpheus" and Florian in a room together.

And ngl, going back to the good ole days when I theorized a LOT about Norton, let's throw him in there as well for good measure. These three men all having different ideas on how to approach things about the manor and its truth, about Alice, and about the past/memories. Very tantalizing stuff to ruminate once again on when stuck in morning traffic (lol).

For Alice's part, I do wonder what her limit would be. Girl, just wants to find out the truth and is so tunnel vision on that and finding her lost childhood friend that I wonder if she'd even properly notice (she's a woman on a mission, I love her focus on that but golly, sometimes she's TOO focused).