☀️ Raise

we've had positive interactions before Rina and I saw this from your blog not from any of the people arguing with you, so I hope you're able to take this as well meaning as I intend it.

I can't perfectly describe everything happening here because I only have so much time and confronting transmisogyny directly like this is very discomforting, but I do think this is transmisogynistic and it's sad to see.

it's true that misogyny is rampant and not widely condemned in society, and if that's all you were noting like some of the other tags on this post, I would probably just move on because while I don't think winged-void was claiming that it isn't, it's not wrong to note explicitly.

but what you've done here is a few steps further than that, and you've approached a trans woman very hostily about misogyny and doubled down on it as well. it's true that it didn't originally say "progressive spaces" or something, but this is pretty clearly a vent post speaking about a specific type of experience. the first line can be read grammatically less as a statement of "this is what happens in the general context" and more in the way of "in the context set up by this line; second line". which is to say: in the context that people frown upon misogyny, they often still enjoy transmisogyny.

this is a completely reasonable interpretation of the original post and it seems like you've completely discarded it. you've also stated that no space has managed to create a space outside patriarchy, which is true in the most literal sense, but the implication is that there are no spaces or types of spaces which misogyny receives pushback. this is why you're being called a cryptoterf in the notes, because the universality and primacy of misogyny as fundamentally inescapable is perhaps the most defining trait of terfism and what separates radical feminism more broadly from other feminisms. there's several reasons why this view of misogyny is deeply harmful, it often leads directly to downplaying other forms of discrimination like racism, but it also leads to pretty directly to a sort of female-pessimism of the separatist trend, most visible of these probably being dworkin, who rather infamously advocates for an Israel for women, using much the same rhetoric zionists do, that women will never be safe otherwise because of how inescapable misogyny is, even explicitly so drawing the comparison to Israel/antisemitism repeatedly by name in her book on the subject. another reason is this perspective is harmful is that it totally inverts historical materialism and places gender at the base of class distinctions, which is not remotely backed up by anthropology or any modern science really. it deemphasizes the primacy of class struggle and substitutes sex struggle, a substitution which has been responsible for most of the worst mistakes of radical feminist thought.

the issue is also obviously visible in real life - are there no spaces where misogyny is generally frowned upon? the idea is so laughable that I have trouble thinking this is what you intended to imply, i think more likely you're trying to make a point about how this isnt the general case, and most places are misogynistic*, in which case it loops back to the above paragraphs about interpretation, so I'll move on. *(or saying that in these cases people aren't truly anti-patriarchal, just superficially, which I'll touch on in a moment)

is saying misogyny is a societal wide problem terfism? no, but saying that its fundamentally inescapable, moreover, never even opposed or combatted, while speaking over trans women, you can start to see the lines.

there are obviously spaces where misogyny receives at least superficial pushback, such as overtly feminist spaces and plenty of queer spaces as well, and we also know pretty clearly that these spaces are nevertheless not kind to trans women. does this mean they actually in reality treat cis women super well? no. even if they did would they not be misogynistic? no, because trans women are women and transmisogyny is misogyny.

but regardless, the reality is that many spaces claim to care about misogyny, and then do overtly misogynistic shit to trans women in particular and in ways above and beyond what they do to cis women. if you deny this, you deny transmisogyny. by arguing that there are no spaces where cis womens issues are even superficially recognized, you also deny that anyone can experience further marginalization in this regard. if misogyny is never believed, then being a Black or imperialized or trans woman will never make the misogyny you experience more invisible, because it's already completely and utterly ignored, and all that's left is the distinct fully unrelated experiences of marginalization, in other words, this perspective is fundamental anti-intersectional.

I say "this perspective" in reference to the perspective I outline above, not explicitly your perspective, because I understand the conclusions I've drawn likely aren't ones you share explicitly, but I do think support for them can be found within your words and it seems like some element of them are present due to the way you're doubling down on this. I really think you ought to step back and think through this a little bit more.

this post is an expression of the hyper marginalization that trans women face. it's not saying misogyny isn't real, and you don't need to teach trans women about how big an issue misogyny is, we know. what we're trying to say is that the problem is often worse for us specifically.

whenever any multiply marginalized group speaks about the way they're oppressed within their own communities, they're often made out as downplaying whatever marginalization is shared. in Black groups, Black women speaking up against misogynoir are said to be downplaying racism, in women's spaces trans women speaking against transmisogyny are said to be downplaying misogyny. can you see the pattern here?

yes, if winged void wanted to be extraordinarily precise ae could've specified the exact social context which this happened, but is that really necessary when this is a real phenomena we experience regularly? by downplaying it you either argue that it doesn't happen at all, which hopefully isn't the case, or that it's not an experience worth discussing because it downplays misogyny - the position you're appearing to take. it's not anti feminist to discuss how marginalized women are hurt even within situations that might support cis women. heck, its post didn't even say "everyone unilaterally boos and then donates money to women and says I'm sorry women" just that people booed. people boo misogyny sometimes? that's like a really real thing that happens, and especially in these queer comedy shows, where they then go on to be incredibly transmisogynistic. this is a real experience that we really need to talk about, and it shouldn't just be subordinated to cis womens concerns, because trans women are women and misogyny isn't adequately being combatted until transmisogyny is recognized as well. you're right that misogyny is still rampant in these spaces, but one of the key manifestations of this misogyny is transmisogyny and to be an effective feminist you must recognize this.

hi everyone, sorry to do this again every month but the situations keep piling up and my health situation keeps getting worse and worse every day.

my name's vi and i'm a disabled trans woman from south america, i have extensive nerve damage and my health is declining to the point that every day i see my teeth fall out of my mouth, i live with an also disabled mother who is undergoing treatment for cancer and her needs are barely being met.

if you've looked at the news as of late you probably have at least an idea of how things are in the region, but particularly where i live, the average wage can't even hope to cover the medication and healthcare needed for an elderly cancer patient and a disabled chronically ill woman, it can't even reach enough for groceries or transportation.

i know we're all struggling but if you see this please help out, every little bit helps, you could be the difference between keeping us afloat or not, even just by reblogging.

paypal: https://paypal.me/V3nusP

I learned to hate myself for being transgender before I knew I was transgender. I laughed at the jokes in stand up comedy routines, and prime time sitcoms, and animated comedy shows, and in the movies, and in books, and in games, laughing at trans women for existing, about “men in dresses”, about people who “got their dicks chopped off”, and I learned to think that was worthy of ridicule.

And then a day came when I felt a pang of envy at what my female classmates were wearing and I repressed it, and felt guilty, and a day where I felt incomplete because I had no breasts and I repressed it and I felt disgusting And a day when I realized the only images of romance that made me feel anything showed two women together and I repressed it and I felt like a monster And a day when I realized I felt sick when I looked at myself in the mirror after every shower before work and couldn’t bear to look at my own face, and I hated myself. And then there came a day when I hated myself so much, and I thought I could never understand why, and so I just wanted it all to end. And it was just a miracle that I swerved my car back into my lane in time.

And all of it started with a joke that I heard on TV, and then kept hearing from all the voices from the ether, over and over and over, worming an idea into my mind before I was old enough to realize I was absorbing it, the idea that a man in a dress is funny, and that changing your body parts makes you a freak, and that women who have penises instead of vaginas are liars and hurt men. And they’re still making these jokes. And somewhere out there right now, just like all those years ago, there is a little girl in a t-shirt and cargo shorts with buzzed off hair watching the TV, hearing that joke and absorbing it without knowing it, who will someday have to pry herself apart to tear it out of her head, just like I did.

I’ll say, cis men are Worse about the boundary, I am inundated with cis men who want me to break my rule, but those men are typically huge shit heads from the get-go, whereas the trans men I’m saying no to are like…. Genuinely convinced they don’t count in the category of “man”. The ones I meet at parties and stuff are 90% kind and then talk down to me all of a sudden when I say I don’t work with men, as if I just don’t get queer history/culture/gender variance/whatever.