“Eros. Giver of pain.”

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“Eros. Giver of pain.”

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'What are you waiting for? What do you stall for?'
i couldn't remotely sleep
neither can i
Procreate, April 2025
extremely long multiple paragraph post about the wicked years, gelphie, gender, and queerness as a social class.
essentially i think what makes gelphie very complicated is that the wicked years series establishes them as clearly romantically linked but never establishes them as queer, or makes an attempt to establish queer women as a legible class with complex relationships to gender and society. I think they arguably do for queer men--for example Sarima refers to Crope and Tibbett as "inverts" and Trism mentions that gay sex isn't accepted in his social class. They also mention that there's a tradition of men playing the role of the female fairy Preenella during celebrations so there's also a history of drag. It's also clear that crope and tibbett approach gender in a way that's linked to their sexuality. but at the same time Trism balks at the idea of dressing like a woman, so gender fluidity isn't universally accepted. There were also a couple different instances where male characters cohabitated in what was implied to be a romantic way. that tells me that queer men exist in the wicked universe, that they're socially recognizeable and legible to other characters, and that it is possible for average people (or Animals) to make a life with each other.
at the same time, we don't really get that same degree of clarity with queer women. someone calls elphaba "a woman who prefers the company of other women" in the opening and like 3 books later someone tells Rain not to get too attached to female teachers. But there doesn't ever seem to be any evidence of how "a woman who prefers the company of other women" is recieved in the world. what is their relationship to gender? what's their social station? there are a couple characters besides glinda and elphaba who are implied to be queer (oatsie manglehand and lurline/preenella) but they're never really discussed as a social class. their queerness is never legible to other characters. also the hints of homophobia that elphaba and rain experience (see above) are never applied to Elphaba and Glinda's relationship. Nanny says that Frex and Turtle Heart are "flirting like schoolgirls" or something like that, but she only says that Elphaba was "devoted" to Glinda in a way that never registers to her as strange.
I think the first book especially is dedicated to exploring the different ways someone who is nominally a woman can be considered evil. queerness is ostensibly one of them, but the social impacts of queerness are never addressed, so it never really makes sense. why would it matter if elphaba had gay sex if we never find out what people think about women who have gay sex? we hear a lot about what Glinda thinks about basically every aspect of society (including "theatre people") and a lot about how people interpret her, but her relationship to elphaba as a specifically taboo relationship or her attraction to women is never something that comes up at all, even when she's talking to other queer characters. And that's the crux of it all. Glinda and Elphaba behave in ways that are queer (and this was done knowingly, and with intention) but they don't understand themselves as part of a class of queer women (even subconsciously, ie "I know what I feel is wrong/different") and neither does anyone else.
And yet when queer women talk about those characters, they not only identify the characters as queer but speak specifically to how their sexuality affects their relationship to society. ie in the movie Cynthia, Marissa Bode, and arguably Ariana are all very invested in the characters' sexuality. Cynthia and Ariana have made it clear that they view Elphaba's queerness is related to her sense of otherness and Glinda's queerness as part of what motivates her need to perform. they were also conscious that queer women as a social class would respond to the characters in a specific way for those reasons.
I also think that legibility is VERY important to queer women generally because a major way that bi women and lesbians experience homophobia is as erasure. For example when pluribus was airing, people were very frustrated that news outlets never identified Carol as a lesbian, because that label is important for people because lesbianism as an identity is so often erased or disputed. or I just finished reading A Desolation Called Peace (also written by a queer woman) and even after two female characters have made out twice, one of them asks the other if she actually likes women. OR how the bridgerton showrunner (a queer woman) talks about the sapphic bridgerton couple is very direct in a way that's very different from how gregory maguire talks about gelphie.
I think there is demonstrably a noticeable mismatch between what the Wicked books think queer women would think about themselves and how they actually ARE talking and thinking about themselves. I don't think it means they're bad books or "bad representation" and I actually really like them, even if I don't agree with everything they say (esp about disability among other things). HOWEVER I do think that queer women reading them will inevitably pick up on the fact that what the author values is slightly different from what they value AND people with homophobic inclinations can and do use the ambiguity around Glinda and Elphaba to deny that there's any sexual or romantic element to their relationship at all. This means that not only are they reading the text against authorial intent and losing crucial pieces of information about major characters' motivations, they also make discussions of the book actively hostile to queer women. I mean I'm not trying to attempt an epic cancellation on a very old bostonian gay man here BUT I do think there are several valuable lessons to be learned here about ourselves and our world
crope and tibbett never have explicit sex yet everybody recognizes they're clearly a gay couple. frex and turtle heart also don't have explicit on page sex, and it's only much later that frex confirms he and melena "shared him," yet every one still recognizes them as queer rep and no one ever says it doesn't count because only melena and turtle heart got on page sex. glinda and elphaba literally kiss and it's heavily implied they have sex but it suddenly doesn't count or oh it's just implication we can't give credit for that. the way people are so quick to see any affection between men as gay but deny affection between women can be anything but platonic is insane
before we really get down to buisness I just want to say that if this post is about feuding with fiyerabas I think glinda and elphaba absolutely canonically fucked raw. every night in that little dorm room. tongue in every hole. but if this is a discussion between learnéd disciples of gelphie I DO think the way people read sexuality in the Wickedverse is complicateddddddd because (to approach gender and sexuality and the characters of wicked in a very binary way. though I'm aware of the nuances of the book Elphaba in the room) men and women experience homophobia differently.
A big part of the way homophobia is applied to women is that their ability to possess a sexuality independent from men is denied. I think queer men experience homophobia as hypervisibility (every touch or moment of affection is "gay") queer women experience homophobia as invisibility (ie "they're just really good friends") and that does change how the characters need to be approached when you write them. I think people absolutely dismiss the objective evidence that Glinda and Elphaba are written as romantically linked because they're homophobic. But at the same time I don't feel that the wicked years books are written with the understanding that erasure is one of the primary ways homophobia manifests towards queer women.
It’s like that graphic of equality vs. equity with the people and the fence and they're all on the same sized stool but the short person still can't see over the fence. I think queerness in the Wicked years is approached through the lens of equality where all the queer characters regardless of gender are largely written largely the same way. But I think an equitable treatment would understand that queer men and queer women are perceived in fundamentally different ways and approach how the characters are written in response.

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i know we joke about gelphie being super incompetent and not getting together when everyone else around them was having gay sex, but the truth of the matter is that they're not really portrayed all that differently than other queer couples in the wicked years, particularly the original novel. cuz from time to time i see this sentiment 'oh maguire wrote other canon queer couples if he wanted to canonize gelphie he would've' but these 'canon queer couples' also end tragically and don't get on page sex scenes
turtle heart and melena have multiple sex scenes in their section, but there are none between turtle heart and frex, despite the fact that they were canonically in a throuple and frex's love for turtle heart defines a lot of his character and decisions. decades later, frex confirms that he and melena "shared him," but besides a charged moment where turtle heart puts his fingers on frex's neck there isn't a lot in terms of on page sexual tension. we 100% could have gotten frex turtle heart sex, but we didn't. and turtle heart is then brutally murdered by a mob, so it's not like he and frex get a happily ever after
crope and tibbett are also lauded as maguire's amazing explicit gay rep. don't get me wrong i love them, but they never actually kiss or have sex and we don't even get explicit confirmation that they're lovers, though it's incredibly obvious. and their queerness is very 'oh these two artsy effeminate theater boys who are boq's (and later glinda's) gay bffs' for most of their page time. they also don't have on page sex, but tibbett is drugged and forced into having sex with a Tiger. he later dies of something analogous to AIDS, but this isn't given much focus outside of it getting elphie out of st glinda's, and we never get to see crope's reaction to his lover's death
gelphie also doesn't have on page sex and ends tragically, but in comparison you have more time exploring glinda and elphaba's dynamic (elphaba is the main character), and i there's far more sexually or romantically charged moments between them then these other couples (the dorm scene, caprice in the pines, the fainting and purring incident, the bed on the way to the emerald city, the kiss). and unlike frex/turtle heart and crope/tibbett we actually do see gelphie kiss. i love all of these couples and i personally really like the way maguire handles queer relationships, even if they don't get explicit sex scenes. i also think it's fair game to criticize how he portrays queer relationships. but it's not like his writing around gelphie is completely different than other queer couples, or that there's significantly more subtext/implication around them
and people also bring up "oh he wrote liir/trism and rain/ozma in the later books he could've made explicit gelphie" but the context in which maguire wrote the wicked sequels was very different. SOAW came out in 2005, a full decade after wicked. a lot changed during that time--AIDS cases were down in the US, HAART hit the market in 1996, attitudes towards homosexuality were somewhat more favorable, and massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2004 (gregory and his husband were among the first gay marriages in the US). all of these things may have influenced maguire and made him more willing to portray explicit gay sex in a way he didn't in the og novel
you also can't ignore the influence of the musical in the later books. he may have been frustrated in how the musical straightwashed gelphie's dynamic, and responded by putting elphaba's descendants in gelphie-adjacent relationships. he may have found musical gelphie really compelling, which influenced the trajectory of his later books. probably it's a mix of both. liir/trism and rain/ozma don't even get happy endings as couples until the witch of maracoor, which came out in 2023
i know we joke about gelphie being super incompetent and not getting together when everyone else around them was having gay sex, but the truth of the matter is that they're not really portrayed all that differently than other queer couples in the wicked years, particularly the original novel. cuz from time to time i see this sentiment 'oh maguire wrote other canon queer couples if he wanted to canonize gelphie he would've' but these 'canon queer couples' also end tragically and don't get on page sex scenes
turtle heart and melena have multiple sex scenes in their section, but there are none between turtle heart and frex, despite the fact that they were canonically in a throuple and frex's love for turtle heart defines a lot of his character and decisions. decades later, frex confirms that he and melena "shared him," but besides a charged moment where turtle heart puts his fingers on frex's neck there isn't a lot in terms of on page sexual tension. we 100% could have gotten frex turtle heart sex, but we didn't. and turtle heart is then brutally murdered by a mob, so it's not like he and frex get a happily ever after
crope and tibbett are also lauded as maguire's amazing explicit gay rep. don't get me wrong i love them, but they never actually kiss or have sex and we don't even get explicit confirmation that they're lovers, though it's incredibly obvious. and their queerness is very 'oh these two artsy effeminate theater boys who are boq's (and later glinda's) gay bffs' for most of their page time. they also don't have on page sex, but tibbett is drugged and forced into having sex with a Tiger. he later dies of something analogous to AIDS, but this isn't given much focus outside of it getting elphie out of st glinda's, and we never get to see crope's reaction to his lover's death
gelphie also doesn't have on page sex and ends tragically, but in comparison you have more time exploring glinda and elphaba's dynamic (elphaba is the main character), and i there's far more sexually or romantically charged moments between them then these other couples (the dorm scene, caprice in the pines, the fainting and purring incident, the bed on the way to the emerald city, the kiss). and unlike frex/turtle heart and crope/tibbett we actually do see gelphie kiss. i love all of these couples and i personally really like the way maguire handles queer relationships, even if they don't get explicit sex scenes. i also think it's fair game to criticize how he portrays queer relationships. but it's not like his writing around gelphie is completely different than other queer couples, or that there's significantly more subtext/implication around them
crope and tibbett never have explicit sex yet everybody recognizes they're clearly a gay couple. frex and turtle heart also don't have explicit on page sex, and it's only much later that frex confirms he and melena "shared him," yet every one still recognizes them as queer rep and no one ever says it doesn't count because only melena and turtle heart got on page sex. glinda and elphaba literally kiss and it's heavily implied they have sex but it suddenly doesn't count or oh it's just implication we can't give credit for that. the way people are so quick to see any affection between men as gay but deny affection between women can be anything but platonic is insane
if this was gelphie people would be like "well we don't actually know if they had sex, sleeping with the talent could literally just mean they slept in bed together." and we know this because there is literally a scene where glinda wants to jump elphie's bones in the middle of the street and she says sharing a bed with elphie makes her feel brave and vulnerable and elphaba tells fiyero she's not a virgin
crope and tibbett never have explicit sex yet everybody recognizes they're clearly a gay couple. frex and turtle heart also don't have explicit on page sex, and it's only much later that frex confirms he and melena "shared him," yet every one still recognizes them as queer rep and no one ever says it doesn't count because only melena and turtle heart got on page sex. glinda and elphaba literally kiss and it's heavily implied they have sex but it suddenly doesn't count or oh it's just implication we can't give credit for that. the way people are so quick to see any affection between men as gay but deny affection between women can be anything but platonic is insane
underrated glinda moment is when the clock of the time dragon crew is trying to get her to take the grimmerie and nor is like "do it for elphaba" and glinda's like "who are you to speak elphaba's name" bitch that's literally nor???? that's elphaba's favorite and only human child you are speaking to. you are nothing compared to her gay girl
if nor was still alive at the end of out of oz elphaba would've come back for her and not glinda and it's kind of not even close

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underrated glinda moment is when the clock of the time dragon crew is trying to get her to take the grimmerie and nor is like "do it for elphaba" and glinda's like "who are you to speak elphaba's name" bitch that's literally nor???? that's elphaba's favorite and only human child you are speaking to. you are nothing compared to her gay girl
one of the book to musical adaptations that i really don't like from wicked is making glinda's renaming insincere
in the book, there's no indication that galinda naming herself glinda in tribute to doctor dillamond is not sincere - sure, it's a little attention-grabbing, but no more than other things that glinda does. it's said that she belatedly gains a little more respect for dillamond, and Animals by extension, from the event. it's another step in her becoming a bit more of a sincere and empathetic person over her shiz years - something that she pulls back from after elphaba leaves
but in the musical, it's just...a joke, and i feel like something is lost there
i like when people treat the first drafts of wicked the musical like the snyder cut and not just a bad first draft
listen, every first draft is kind of bad and unpolished. wicked had the challenge of adapting a five part adult political fantasy novel into a two act musical. they had to condense the timeline for the story to work, and musical theater can't really capture subtly and ambiguity in the specific way a novel can. and this creates problems in adapting a novel where imo the emotional payoff comes from the slowburn of elphaba being worn down by decades of abuse, failure, and loss after loss after loss. when condensed into a two act play you lose that steady pressure and you're kind of left with a bunch of things happening that don't have a clear emotional thread
they also needed to disney-fy things for general audiences, so you're left with an elphaba that isn't a domestic terrorist and doesn't severely neglect her son or kill a kid with an icicle and is a lot more palatable for broadway audiences. they also had this problem where the plan was always to have elphaba survive. but they still had the whole "dorothy begs for forgiveness which causes elphaba to crash out and melt," which fundamentally doesn't work if she 100% is confirmed to live and the crash out is just a ruse anyway guys because the big emotional payoff of the novel is elphaba's inability to make peace with her failures and settle her guilt literally killing her (unless...)
the novel suggests she's waiting to come out; you're left with an oz that is still mostly in chaos with most of it's issues unresolved and things decidely, but you have this seed of hope that elphaba will somehow live on. gregory then expands that in his later books, showing that elphaba's legacy lives on through liir and rain and brrr and glinda and nor. so to flip that into "glinda and dorothy's friends take care of oz and elphaba gets her happily ever after with whiteyero HOORAY!!!!" doesn't work, and ends up undermining elphaba's effect on oz. jk everything worked out in the end doesn't work when the story your adapting is a tragedy
the subsequent drafts making it more about glinda and elphaba's relationship basically alleviates most of these problems. it gives a coherent narrative thread to the story. the whole good witch/wicked witch dichotomy allows them to explore the novel's themes in a clear way that's still digestible for modern audiences. elphaba making peace with glinda the way she couldn't in the novel gives real weight to her surviving outside of "we needed to make it friendly for the kids." their losing each other makes the ending tragic in a similar way to the novel being tragic, but they can still allow elphaba to survive. glinda's entanglement in the regime in act ii allows them to explore the political aspect better than in the early drafts
like it's clear the main challenge of adapting wicked was condensing the novel into a three hour musical, and retaining its core themes while making the material more accessible to the public. i don't love how they handled everything, but i think the final product did a lot right. i personally don't really feel like any of the scenes or plot points in the original drafts actually substantially add to the story or get its message across better, which is why they were changed or cut
i like when people treat the first drafts of wicked the musical like the snyder cut and not just a bad first draft
this is how gelphies sound talking about glinda the good

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this is how gelphies sound talking about glinda the good
who is winning in a 1v1 fight?
movie glinda
book glinda