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Lyanna once Robert reaches the westrosi afterlife:

You guys know that even if Rhaegar simply took Lyanna to the tower of joy to protect her and never slept with her things still would have went to shit right? Brandon would have still gone to king's landing and died. Rhaegar and Lyanna would have probably learned about the war months after and had Rhaegar died Elia would have still died.

People legit saying shit like "Rhaegar should have just given Lyanna back to Robert" She is not his fucking property you freaks. The nature of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship doesn't matter as much as what people assumed happened between them in universe.

It's never about how Lyanna who did not want to marry Robert Baratheon, made the best choice for herself. ASoIaF showed you again and again how difficult and dangerous life is westros is as a lone girl with Arya's storyline and people think Lyanna could have easily just... Lived on her own? Gone to essos? Running away with the prince of the kingdom/the one man with more political privilage than her bethrothed IS the best decision she could have made.

Just say you hate that Rhaegar fell for someone who wasn't his wife. Just say you can't stand a girl who slept with a married man. Just say that you think Lyanna should have sucked it up and married Robert Baratheon because "wah wah duty pure women who suffer for the holy matrimony"

Rhaegar protecting Lyanna from Aerys and an unwanted marriage(just as Jon decided to abandon duty for Arya btw) will never be the wrong decision in my mind. Yes Elia ended up suffering for it and she absolutely did not deserve to. But this is GRRM writing about what Westros does to its women how unwanted arranged marriages harm everyone.(Did we forget Rhaella/Naerys/Lysa?) You'll never find me blaming Lyanna for it or saying that Lyanna should have suffered or been subjected to marital rape by Robert Baratheon because "peace of the realm" or whatever. If peace in westros can only exist by the systematic abuse of women, then it's not peace. if a woman has to burn a whole realm so that she doesn't have to endure a shitty marriage/marital rape, then she gets to burn the realm as far as I'm concerned.

Fandom needs to stop fetishizing and glorifying female characters who "suffer in silence for duty" if it means that they're going to bash those who do not.

Lyanna/Rhaegar/Elia gets treated like a case of "man abandons family for Mistress" people may not know Ramsey boltons or tywin Lannisters. But this is a case they might be familiar with so they treat it with the vitriol they give to real life cases of cheating but that is simply a disingenuous way of engaging with the text. These are not your Diana/Charles/Camilla you people. This is a medieval like fantasy universe and Rhaegar and Elia are two people pushed towards a marriage by his father and her mother to spite Tywin Lannister. It's a marriage for family power. The point of the marriage is to create heirs. Nedcat and their bond is a 1 in 1000 case. Elia and Rhaegar were not Nedcat but it's implied there is a sense of fondness and political allyship. This is not 21st century first world country case where people choose who they marry and can get out of a marriage easily. Rhaegar and Elia cannot even have a divorce without bastardizing their children. The best they can do is seperate while still being legally married. Like Doran Martell and Mellario who are still legally married but Mellario has left for her native homeland.

I find it curious how no one ever mentions that when it comes to Dornish attitudes towards Elia and Rhaegar being married but not together 🤔

Complicated character whose backstory gets revealed slowly

Is not perfect and makes mistake but is treated like a demon while other characters with far worse mistakes go Scott fee

Has an abusive parents and gets blamed for the crimes of said abusive parent

Fandom gets mad they didn't have future vision to prevent things going wrong

Gets blamed for a whole ass war

"DID NOT CARE ABOUT LOVED ONES AT ALL/IS AN ABUSER"

Has a character who is in love with them and takes care of their child(?) after their death.

Fandom/Martell stans/Elia Martell stans: call Lyanna bitch/whore/mistress/hypocrite/boy bitch/whore of the north(cool title actually Lyanna should wear it with pride)/slut/every possible misogynistic insult ever

Saying she deserved to die/deserved to die a worse death/deserve to be subjected to marital rape by Robert/should be beheaded/SAed by the mountain instead

Say she's responsible for thousands of people dying/deserved to be hated by the entirety of westros

Blame HER for Tywin/the mountain harming Elia and Robert abusing Cersi. ROBERT.

Write wired AF fanfics where She is abused by oberyn/Oberyn is implied to poison Jon? And we're supposed to cheer?

(ps: I love how Oberyn is supposed to be a feminist king unlike that pedo Rhaegar as if Oberyn also didn't sleep with underage girls and boys or like he didn't slap his lover. No he's a respectful feminist king because he likes his sister)

"Lyanna was a selfish hoe because she didn't want to marry Robert and ran away with a married man and had her brother and father killed-" all this KNOWING Robert becomes an alcoholic and rapist and abuser. Also sorry I thought that people who have relations outside of the holy matrimony deserve death? Brandon was implied to be a playboy so as far as fandom is concerned he deserved to die 🥰

"Why would Rhaegar abandon his PERFECT, DELICATE, FEMININEcoughtradcough wife for that ugly horse face bitch omg" so this is Arya vs Sansa discourse all over again. And reeks of misogyny. What are you upset about? That Rhaegar didn't love your fave? That he fell for a tomboyish character rather than his traditionally feminine wife? That GRRM cares for Lyanna? That he doesn't clutch his pearl over the sanctity of arranged marriages like you?

Throw a tantrum If anyone dares suggest that Lyanna may have had relationship with Ashara and Arthur because Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting so that means she's her property. Never mind that it's possible that Ashara was in on the whole thing because of her brother and her house's nursemaid was also involved or that she could have been carrying Lyanna's niece or nephew. Or god forbid Ashara had a connection with BOTH characters or something.

"Catelyn and Ned are to blame for Jon being killed by other night watch members. They both know that NW is a dangerous place where people are miserable and are killed by wildings so they should have known that Jon would be killed. That proves that Ned doesn't care about Jon/is a bad father etc"

That's how you people sound like to me. Like Yes Rhaegar and Lyanna running away created a chain reaction which ended in people dying is not the same as Rhaegar and Lyanna being selfish villains who didn't care for anyone but themselves or that they somehow should have known that this would happen.

Yes what they did was reckless but to act as if they should have seen the rebellion/war is so dumb like... The Rebellion was not an inevitable thing. So many acts were done by other characters that could have prevented things from escalating.

Brandon goes to king's landing and does an oopsie treason by shouting for the Heir to the kingdom to come on and die and YET the rebellion wasn't inevitable. Aerys did not need to kill Rickard and Brandon the way he did. He could have given them a fair trial or trial by combat. No one and I mean NO ONE expected Aerys to do that even after all the bullshit he'd previously pulled. Rickard and Brandon didn't. The court didn't. But somehow Rhaegar and Lyanna should have been greenseers predicting this.

Even AFTER Rickard and Brandon's deaths, the rebellion wasn't inevitable, AERYS chooses to demand Ned and Robert's heads. even when the rebellion happens, AERYS is the one who demands that Elia retunes to king's landing when she was safe on DRAGONSTONE.

TYWIN only decides to sack kingslanding after Rhaegar dies. Hell even if Rhaegar somehow thought about a world where he died, Elia and his children's deaths was not inevitable still. Had Elia been allowed to leave kingslanding with Rhaella, she would have survived. Hell even the sacking does not necessarily mean that she had to die. There's a reason why Ned is so horrified by their deaths. It's not a thing that just happens in war. Elia was a noble woman. Her SA and deaths alongside the deaths of her children was an unthinkable crime. A completely unnecessary brutality that shows the kind of man TYWIN is. The fact that Robert did not punish Tywin shows the kind of man HE is. It exists to hel subvert the "Tyrant king is defeated and replaced by the rightful, just king" narrative in fantasies. In a normal situation where the characters weren't war criminals Elia would have been spared and Aegon and Rhaenys would have been held as hostage until they grew up and sent to the wall in Aegon's case and the Sept/silent sisters in Rhaenys' case.

Do you notice a pattern here? It all goes back to Aerys and Tywin. This narrative is given more detail in the world of ice and fire. Tywin and Aerys start as friends/allies only for their friendship to deteriorate as Aerys becomes more and more paranoid and it becomes clear that Tywin is the one ruling the kingdom and not him. Tywin then puts the death nail on Rhaegar and Aerys' relationship in duskendale when he makes it clear that he doesn't care if Aerys(who is a hostage) is killed because they have Rhaegar as a replacement. Elia Martell becomes Rhaegar's wife because Elia's mother wanted Elia and oberyn to marry Jaime and Cersi but Tywin refuses and suggests Elia marry Tyrion which is an insult to Elia's mother. Tywin wants Cersi for Rhaegar but Aerys refuses and also he makes Jaime into a kingsguard basically depriving Tywin of his preferred heir.

Elia's marriage to Rhaegar was an insult to Tywin. Once Rhaegar died, Once Tywin decided to join the rebels and make Cersi a queen, it was all gone to hell but Aerys literally put Elia on the bullet path when he didn't allow her to go to dragonstone where even HE knew it was safe which is why he sent Rhaella and his preferred heir viserys there.

Everything about the rebellion and the deaths that happened especially when it comes to Elia is basically a power struggle between Aerys and Tywin. It's a brilliant narrative made by GRRM that goes to waste when you decide to blame Rhaegar and Lyanna of all people. Rhaegar and Lyanna running away lit a match. A spark. But a spark doesn't cause an explosion on it's own. Aerys and Tywin were the ones to cover the house in gasoline.

Miscellaneous fandom talking points:

No. Rhaegar didn't abaondn Elia and his kids to just die. First of all I need people to realize that dragonstone princes left their families on dragonstone and then fucked off to do whatever all the goddamn time. We do not know why Rhaegar left dragonstone to start with, it could have been completely unrelated reasons to Lyanna before they ended up meeting. Dragon stone was safe to the point where it was not easy for stannis to take it. Elia and Rhaegar both CHOSE dragonstone after getting married to stay away from Aerys and Elia's court of Dornishmen and women were also loyal to Rhaegar it's heavily implied that they were all in on the plan to depose Aerys with a great council.

We do not know when Lyanna and Rhaegar became aware of Rickard and Brandon's deaths and of the rebellion. It's very possible that by the time they arrived in dorne, that Rickard and Brandon were already dead and the implication in a world of ice and fire is that Elia and the kids were already in king's landing when Rhaegar came back. And no once she was there, he couldn't have just committed treason against his father who already hated him and suspected him and get her out.

(People say that he should have somehow gotten her to dorne, same people who talk about Elia's fragile health... Even without Aerys forbidding it You think Getting a woman with fragile health and two young children from king's landing to dorne is willy nillly easy to do? WHILE a rebellion was going on?)

What he COULD do is: 1- defeat the rebels or at the very least Robert 2- come back and depose Aerys.

Which is what... He was planning to do. He just died. That's it. He DIED. People be talking about this man as if his spirit Possessed Tywin after death and ordered the deaths of his wife and kids like? No Robert Baratheon didn't do us all a favor by killing Rhaegar. Elia and her children died because Rhaegar was dead and could not protect them.

And no the kingsguard Guarding the toj instead of Elia and her the kids is not some mistake. Had they not been guarding Lyanna they would NOT have been in the red keep either guys. They would have fought besides Rhaegar. The only reason Jaime also wasn't fighting with Rhaegar was that he was basically Aerys' hostage. You think Aerys would have allowed Dornishmen Arthur dayne in the red keep? Never mind that the red keep WAS SAFE. Never mind that the most paranoid man in westros Aerys "Tywin's number 1 hater" targeryen also believed that the red keep was safe and that Tywin had come to help him. Never mind that there were hundreds of golden cloaks and guards in the city. Or that after Rhaegar's death, thousands of targeryen loyalists had also retreated to king's landing which is why Ned had followed them to the city to begin with.

If the golden cloaks and thousands of loyalists couldn't protect the red keep why do you think Three men who died against 10 northmen in dorne could somehow change Elia's fate? The kingsguard are not magical ninjas people. And if by protecting Elia you mean that someone should have protected her against AERYS... lol..Lmao even. Unless all of the kingsguard were pro midwe like Jaime, they would not have done a single thing. I suggest you go back and reread Jaime's chapters when he talks about how they're supposed to protect Rhaella "yes, but not from him"

And no none of this means I think Rhaegar was perfect and faultless. If you want to hate him for humiliating Elia in harrenhal go ahead the book agrees with you ( why do you think Dany is conflicted over it?) If you think he should have been more decisive and ruthless when it comes to the war/Aerys I agree with you and GRRM also probably agrees with you. Rhaegar's fault in my mind is his idealism when dealing with conflicts that could not be dealt with such things. Rhaegar being defeated in the rebellion because "he fought honourably, and nobly and then he died" is literally a lesson to Daenerys. Rhaegar trying to deal with his father the "correct way" instead of doing anything else like poisoning him or using a faceless man or anything else because it's not an honorable way to deal with him and cursed is the kingslayer IS the point. Rhaegar is meant to fail while Jon and Daenerys are those who succeed because they have his idealism and drive to change things while they also have the pragmatism that he lacks.

Something that gets me about people's analysis (read, making shit up about them without reading the books) is the complete disregard for the actual narrative GRRM is writing about them and what they mean for the story, the characters and the themes.

This is to say that characters like Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, Ashara etc are more than anything tools of the plot. These are Characters who 1- are MEANT to die to pave the way for our main cast. 2- Are far more significant for what they represent for the themes and for what they mean in the story of the actual main characters.

That is not to say that they cannot be counted as their own characters or be fleshed out but any interpretation/theories you make of these characters needs to make sense for what GRRM has written already and to simply make for a better narrative.

Which is why I believe that "Lyanna was Groomed/used/manipulated/kidnapped by Rhaegar" is not only a incongruent with what GRRM has already written, but it would simply make for a weaker story.

Before anything I need to talk about the elephant in the room which is the age gap. Yes this age gap is problematic, yes this would be considered grooming in the real world and I would not approve of it but fandom needs to understand that if we are judging characters and relationships by their ages in westros 99% of the characters would be considered pedos. The books are filled with Relationships with far worse age gaps and not only between older underage girls. Sometimes we even get Older women/underage boys like Ygritte/Jon or uncomfortable Age gaps with queer characters like Renly/loras or Oberyn. Hell Elia Martell's mother originally wanted for Elia to marry JAIME. only for tywin to refuse and suggest an even younger Tyrion as an alternative yet I never see Anti Rhaelya people mention that. Furthermore, ASoIaF is a book series with 16 year old Jon as a commander of the night's watch, a 15 year old Daenerys ruling Slaver's bay, a 9/10 Arya killing people, organizing a revolt in Harrenhal or becoming an assassin. Hell Bran is going to become king of westros at 11 most likely. You don't have to like The age gaps. You have every right to criticize GRRM for them. But it is disingenuous to decide that the characters' ages only matter to the story when it comes to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Men in westros marrying younger women is a westros/GRRM problem not a flaw of Rhaegar's character.

Ultimately GRRM is far more interested in the agency of women when it comes to marriages and relationships rather than their ages.

Now with that out of the way let's go to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Something that the fandom forgets is that while the show already Confirmed R+L=J the books have not and that GRRM is still not done with their story. Rhaegar and Lyanna are active mysteries and we still have not gotten every piece of the puzzle.

The first impressions of Lyanna and Rhaegar's story are given to us by Robert and Viserys. With Robert claiming that it was a case of kidnapping while Viserys claims that Rhaegar died for the women he loved. However Robert at the beginning of the book is a character that readers tend to like because of Ned's positive view on him while Viserys is clearly vile and so if anything readers tend to view him as unreliable and go with Robert's version. Except as the story progresses, we get hints of Lyanna's personality. Her willfulness and her similarities with Arya. Robert not truly knowing Lyanna as a person and only caring about her beauty and more than anything, Lyanna throwing doubt on Robert's nature and not showing enthusiasm about marrying him which in turn causes doubt when it comes to Robert's version of the tale and how Lyanna would have been his great love. In fact we get Ned slowly coming to terms with Robert's character flaws and reach the conclusion that Lyanna's assessment of Robert's character was correct.

And right after that Ned for SOME REASON 🤔 decides to compare Robert with Rhaegar and wondering if he frequented brothels. If you had not picked on all of the R+L=J signs from the previous chapter this moment will feel out of left field and also leave no doubts for any perceptive reader.

Why would Ned think about Rhaegar like this? Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped and assaulted Lyanna but Ned also thinks that he's above going to brothels? But then you remember that whenever Robert raged and ranted about Rhaegar Ned's reactions was basically 😐

It is also significant that Daenerys' first comparison with Rhaegar happens after she saves women from being raped but I digress.

We get more hints of Lyanna's personality and how she parallels not only Arya but also Jon. Lyanna who defended Howland Reed from bullies just as Jon defended Sam from bullies. Lyanna who would have held a sword had Rickard allowed it, Contrasted with Arya who is given a sword by Jon of all people and is allowed to practice with it with Ned's blessing. That Lyanna is heavily hinted at being the knight of the laughing tree. Which goes to explain her and Rhaegar's first meeting. It also once again puts Rhaegar and Robert on opposing ends.

Robert only saw Lyanna's beauty and not the iron underneath, Robert hoped to unmaks tkotlt while Rhaegar most likely discovered Lyanna's secret and kept it hidden from Aerys. Rhaegar literally saw Lyanna's iron before he saw her beauty. We also know that willful Lyanna cried after hearing Rhaegar's song which is presented as something out of the ordinary for her so clearly she is also affected by him

There's also a playing with gender which GRRM clearly loves as we see with Brienne and Jaime being a Beauty and the beast/damsel and knight parallel. Lyanna is the willful girl who would loved riding horses and wanted to have a sword and Rhaegar is a man who'd rather read books and play his harp which is seen as a feminine act and looked down on when performed by men. Rhaegar whom unlike Robert did not care for the song of steel. Not only does GRRM once again give us a couple who do not fit the gendered expectations of westros, he also constrasts Rhaegar with Robert hinting at the kind of person Lyanna was actually attracted to.

GRRM does not give us all of these things for nothing. Even if we ignore how he refers to them as a Romeo/Juliet type of story and a star crossed lovers tale. How their story clearly subverts the knight x princess vs the evil dragon in multiple ways or how it mirrors Lancelot x Gwen(Dolorous Guard/Joyous Guard and the tower of joy HELLO?) he's given us all of these hints in the very text. He did not Write Lyanna as a knight character, willful and strong for everyone to ignore them.

Not only do Rhaegar and Lyanna's personal traits hint at them being a romance, so does their story as a foreshadowing in other relationships and how they mirror other characters. Like Daenerys, Jon, Ygritte and Arya.

1- Ygritte tells Jon of the story of Bael the bard who takes away a daughter of winterfell. Her father then finds a BLUE ROSE on the girl's bed. Years later He finds out that the girl and Bael have been in the crypts the whole time. That the girl loved the bard and bore him a son who became an heir to winterfell. Grrm basically gave us a Rhaelya fanfiction. Lyanna is the northern girl who loved a bard and bore him a son. A son that is represented by a blue rose. Jon is represented by the blue rose in Daenerys' dreams as a blue rose on the wall and he constantly dreams of the crypts of winterfell. Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon are a direct parallel to The princess/Bael and their son.

2- Rhaegar is constantly compared to Daenerys. She dreams of being him. She gains comfort from him. He is her guiding star. Her marriage to Hizdar is compared to Rhaegar's marriage to Elia while Daenerys has feelings for Daario. Daenerys also dreams of Jon as a blue winter rose. The targeryen x stark(snow in Jon's case). Rhaegar and Lyanna are basically a foreshadowing for Jon x Dany. Not only that but Daenerys also wishes she could be LYANNA. Stolen away just as lyanna was "stolen" by Rhaegar.

3- there's also the rumored tale of Jacerys falling in love with Sera Snow the daughter of cregan Stark. Jace supposedly marries Sera and his dragon lays eggs in winterfell. While the in universe historians do not believe this tale, it's actual importance once again is to mirror Both Rhaegar and Lyanna who have a child that dreams of the crypts of winterfell. But also mirrors the future romance of Dany a targeryen marrying a snow.

4- it is very relevant that Ygritte is the person who tells Jon of Bael x stark girl. Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is the epitome of the "Love vs Duty" theme that his parents also struggled with. Arya may get the most explicit comparisons with Lyanna while Dany gets the same with Rhaegar, but Jon's story mirrors their themes more than anything. Jon struggles with his love for Ygritte vs his duty to the night's watch. He wishes he could stay with her. Hates himself for loving her and constantly thinks about his father when it comes to her. He thinks about What Ned would have done, if Ned would have been disappointed, justified himself because Ned had a bastard as well. All of this becomes ironic because Ned DIDN'T have a bastard but his biological father did. Rhaegar chose to love Lyanna but had to leave her to fullfil his duty and fight in the rebellion. Ygritte also very much mirrors Lyanna. She even says that she'd rather be "stolen" by a man who is worthy of her and she can respect rather than be given to marry a man by her father as if she's cattle. Directly mirroring Lyanna choosing Rhaegar over Robert. Furthermore Both Lyanna and Ygritte die after their lovers leave to fullfil their duties.

5- there's also Jon once again mirroring Rhaegar when he abandons his duties to the night's watch to save Arya(the Lyanna stand in) from a marriage to a horrible man after she(technically Jeyne) ran away from him ("I want my bride back, I want my bride back, I want my bride back" is the most Robert Baratheon thing ever come on) not only that but while he says ghost's name, he dies thinking of Arya just like Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name.

6- I see a lot of fans using their misreading of the text to disregard Lyanna's story being one of love and agency and choosing her own destiny. "There's no way Lyanna would run away with a married man after criticizing Robert for Cheating-" lemme remind you that we do not know of When/how Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship started. It would have taken months for them to reach the ToJ from the riverlands for all we know Rhaegar originally only took her to dorne to protect her and they fell in love along the way. And even IF she was in love with him from the start. Rhaegar and Robert are constantly shown as opposites by the text. No Robert sleeping around with everything with legs is not the same as Rhaegar abandoning his arranged marriage(we don't even know if he planned on abandoning Elia and the kids for good y'all that's just a thing fandom made up. 😭 Elia was still his legal wife as Aegon was his heir and the prince that was promised in his eyes. Targeryen princes left their families on dragonstone to do other shit for months all the goddamn Time. Hell even if he didn't leave with her there's no guarantee he would have gone back to dragonstone that man was planning a coup against his father for gods sake) for the one woman he fell in love with. It does not make Lyanna an idiot or a hypocrite.

7-"WHYYYY would Lyanna still stay in toj after her brother and father died, clearly she was forced-" lemme stop you right there. First of all GRRM is not his fandom. He's not some #justiceforElia AO3 user. He does not blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for Aerys or tywin's actions. This is simply NOT how he writes accountability in his story. He does not blame Lyanna or Rhaegar for Aerys killing the starks just as he doesn't blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for the deaths of Rhaegar's family. If he doesn't write the Martells blaming Rhaelya for Elia and her children dying, I fail to see why he would write Lyanna blame Rhaegar for his father's actions. Furthermore, The fans need to stop being D&D brained. This isn't 2026 where Rhaegar and Lyanna could get news from Westros.com. Rickard and Brandon were most likely dead before Lyanna and Rhaegar even reached Dorne. It would have even taken longer for Any news to Reach Lyanna and Rhaegar. Hell unless we get more information the two of them only got the news when Gerold hightower arrived in the tower. And... I'm sorry but what would Lyanna do? Lyanna who is most likely pregnant at the time? She can't stop the rebellion that is already happening. If she leaves, her life could be in danger from Rebels and Aerys alike. Never mind that Robert would definitely kill her son. And once again WHY would Ned have a neutral/better than Robert attitude towards Rhaegar if there were any hints to him that she was a prisoner? WHY would he talk/think about Arthur Dayne with such respect if he wasn't allowing Lyanna to leave? People always ignore Jon when analyzing Lyanna and the KG's actions. Arthur Dayne and the rest of the kingsguard don't have an access to aGoT by GRRM. they are not reading Ned's chapters. All they know is that Rhaegar and his family are dead. That Tywin's men(rebels basically) butchered Rhaegar's wife and children and Robert Baratheon didn't have shit to say about it and Ned is Robert's bestie. Could it be, could it be that they're protecting Lyanna and Jon from Bobby's dumbass best friend who could very well deliver Lyanna to him like a trophy?