Is there control over the Chaos Heart's Power?
I was pondering again about the ending of Super Paper Mario and conjured a question;
We know that the Chaos heart is the catalyst to destruction of all universes, wiping out every person, including presumably the weilder of the Heart-
We also know the fact that Dimentio knew the Chaos heart's power would be used to do this based on the Ch8-3 exchange.
But when he takes control of the Chaos heart, he intends to to create a "perfect world" to which he is "king"-
If he knew the Chaos Heart would be used to wipe out existence, including possibly himself, how would he have even thought he'd been able to make that perfect world in the first place (unless his perfect world was to have everything empty and destroyed-)
Is it said at any point that the wielder of the heart can actually choose what the outcomes are?
Or am I missing any information-
Thanks!
You point out an interesting conflict of things here. Surely, Count Bleck expected and intended that he would go out with the rest of existence when it was all over. Dimentio, however, planned not only to live, but to even create new worlds. I do think personally that both of them would or at least could have got what they desired if they got to see their plans through, though, for a few reasons. We do know from his Tattle that Count Bleck has powers that come from the Chaos Heart- powers plural, meaning it couldn't be just his barrier (which he also had a variant of before getting the Chaos Heart anyway, but it's worth noting). This, along with the fact that it seems to be used in (and is definitely infused into) the conglomeration of Super Dimentio's formation, definitely suggests that the wielder of the Chaos Heart carries some level of control over its behavior. Whether this would extend to being able to choose whether or not to be consumed by the Void, though, we really get no direct evidence on. Though, I do suspect that the Chaos Heart itself would try to protect its host even if the host did not want to be protected, given Bleck seems if anything happy here when the barrier is broken. Perhaps this would be dropped once the Void had completed its purpose, but either way it would serve to benefit from keeping its host alive at least up to a certain point, given it relies on having one to keep existing in the first place.
And the death of the Chaos Heart's host, after all, would not reverse the destruction the Void had caused, merely at best stop it in its tracks and seal the Void shut. Otherwise the host's inevitable death would reverse it, and the Void would be incapable of presenting a permanent and serious threat, which would be absurd. So, had the Chaos Heart not been countered and overpowered by the Purity Heart, the destroyed worlds likely would never have been restored. But it is Dimentio's confidence, I think, that really sells it for me. If we were meant to doubt his ability to make good on his threats, especially in such a climactic moment, I feel we should expect to see that somewhere. We see when he is caught off guard, we see how he reacts when he was mistaken about the Pure Hearts, when he is doubtful and anxious. But even as the heroes rake him over the coals here on his faulty assumptions about prophecy and fate, at no point is it suggested his plan wouldn't have worked. And given the fact that Dimentio is capable of creating at least some form of world normally in the form of Dimension D, and that the Chaos Heart is said to grant powers and also seemingly amplifies existing ones to new degrees, all the evidence seems to line up to suggest he could've done as he dreamed. But, let's say just hypothetically that the Chaos Heart would still invariably dump its host at some point, in order to finalize the destruction. If that is the case, it could well be part of why Dimentio chose to merge himself with the Chaos Heart as opposed to merely wielding it, so that it would have a harder time rejecting his goals. That is very speculative, however. But, note also that Super Dimentio doesn't have a special barrier that manifests like Bleck's, the invincibility is just coming from the chaos power within in the same way as it was for Mimi.
Bottom line? We don't know with absolute certainty, but I think there's probably at least enough evidence to make it more plausible than not that both Bleck and Dimentio could have ended up getting what they wanted in the end.
Wow! This is an, as usual, very detailed, enjoyable and informative response and perspective! I never realised just how much depth the Chaos Heart had beyond the narratives catalyst to destruction and its narrative symbolism- Thank you so much! :)
Any time, always glad to! By the way, on the front of the Chaos Heart's depths, I forget, did I ever finish that writeup about how the best description I can think of for the distinction between Chaotic Love and Pure Love, and really the distinctions between any of the "light" and "dark" powers across the Mario cosmology, is that of selflessness and selfishness?
I do not believe you have shown this to me! I be very thoroughly interested to read about such distinctions of Pure and Chaotic love if you would be willing to share! I appreciate the insight!
I think I've misplaced it, unfortunately! But essentially, it was just kind of looking throughout the series and noticing the trends around the way that Star and Wish power tend to behave. The Stars' whole deal is giving their light and energy out into the world. They lend their power to people, magic, and machines without complaint. They give up their forms to create the celestial bodies. And, most prominently and significantly, they grant wishes. The Stars answer the wishes and prayers of people, maintain the propagation and form the very essence of life, and preside over the cycle of the universe itself. And as per Paper Mario, their power ultimately comes from the wishes of ordinary people. The wishes of people and the Stars that grant them empower one another, in a way they create each other. This is, to me, the most beautiful aspect of the Mario world's cosmology. It is positive emotion, and the will to help one another out, that runs the cosmos. But what, then, is the opposite of that power? We do have an answer! The Ztars are... well, let's be real, mostly irrelevant in a direct plot sense. But despite only appearing explicitly in a handful of Mario Party games, their lore is no less fascinating. It's said that a Ztar exists wherever there is a Star, just as darkness follows light. Where the Stars thrive on light and hope, the Ztars are gloomy icons of sadness and regret. We don't know a whole lot more than that. But much like antimatter in our own universe, the Ztars are a suspiciously quiet presence for something that's supposed to be equal. Where are the Ztars hiding exactly, and why are the Stars so much more prevalent. My working theory/personal suspicion for the disparity is that it's a "wolf you feed" type of scenario. We know the Stars thrive because the people of the universe give them power. The Ztars, however... their adherence seems much more limited, if indeed any truly exists at all. What would feed the Ztars, anyway? Well, for that, let us turn to SMRPG and Paper Mario, the genesis of the lore of the Stars and Wishes. The Stars are ultimately the decider of which wishes get granted, and most of Bowser's wishes don't make the cut, because they are selfish in nature. Wishes about yourself aren't intrinsically selfish, we see wishes for snacks or personal success are totally fair game. Rather, I think, what makes a wish selfish in the eyes of the Stars is when it benefits oneself at the expense of another. So, I theorize, that is where the Ztars would draw their power. And where do we see a frowning star guided by, and known for empowering, selfish wishes? The Dark Star from Bowser's Inside Story, although not technically explicitly a Ztar, provides a perfect case study of what we would expect them to behave like. It is weakened and sealed by the power of the Star Sprites. Where the Stars maintain the world in relative tranquility, the Dark Star seeks to consume it in darkness. Where the Stars give their power freely, the Dark Star obsessively hunts down the one who stole its power until it is once again complete. It hijacks DNA, steals forms and power to suit its needs, and takes what it wants. I feel that Chaotic Love maps quite similarly onto Pure Love in this lens. Where it is an enforced and arranged marriage that brings the Chaos Heart into being, it is a wedding of true and mutual love that takes it out once and for all. Where the Dark Prognosticus binds the future to one unerring path, the Light Prognosticus champions possibility. Where Count Bleck's all-consuming malaise of despair and vengeance tears open the Void, it is hope and trust that sees it sealed. Where Dimentio's ego and disregard for life in equating himself to the inevitability of prophecy is his undoing, it is the humility and kindness of the heroes that is their strength. There's more I could go into about the themes of this across the series, including the consistent thread of the power of love being able to defy fate and the possibility of the Shroob Planet being linked to the Ztars, but does that answer/explain?
Your exploration of the interplay between Stars and Ztars in the Mario universe highlights a profound duality. The Stars embody hope, selflessness, and the nurturing of life through the power of wishes, thriving on the positive emotions of people. In contrast, the Ztars represent sadness and regret, existing as shadows to the Stars, akin to antimatter’s elusive nature. Certainly an interesting approach! I've never heard of Mario Party 9's Ztars being used in such way from a lore point of view, but it is interesting!
The idea that Ztars draw power from selfish wishes—especially those that harm others—Is interesting as well. The Dark Star's behavior exemplifying this, consuming and corrupting rather than uplifting. This dichotomy indirectly alike to the themes of love and chaos present in Super Paper Mario, where true love overcomes despair and selfishness.
This is a great response, thank you very much for your time! :)
