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Caught the project hail mary fever and now i can't get out of the trenches, your honor they mean so much to me.
This is one comic i'm working on, there are going to be more parts. (Ps: nothing weird happens is mostly just grace trying to disgust rocky). I just love Grace and Rocky's relationship, they are so different but care so much for each other.
(I'm not sure if i should keep rocky in the ball or in a skin tight suit, like the tight suit would make more sense as to not squish grace, but the ball is so funny)
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It has just occurred to me that most people don't have a super solid grasp of how languages work, especially when compared to one another, and that this means most people aren't aware of why Rocky's speech patterns are the way they are in PHM. To those who've only watched the film, it should be noted that the linguistics are more detailed in the book, but even still, it's highly likely that most readers of the book don't know enough about linguistics to fill in the gaps left by Weir. And that's why I'm here! Let your local linguistics enthusiast fill the gaps for you.
Break for the Dash™
I've seen people assume that the way Rocky speaks is a quirk of Eridian just being a simple language. While yes, that could be true to an extent, both the film and especially the book make it very clear that Rocky only speaks in stilted, broken sentences because of the language barrier. By the end, he speaks perfectly clearly in complete sentences with humour and sarcasm and natural sounding exclamations. Grace is at that point fluent and understands all the nuances.
This leads to the first hurdle of Rocky's in communicating with Grace in the beginning: Grace is stupid. He's not but to someone from a species that has the auditory equivalent of photographic memory (I don't think this is mentioned in the film but it is in the book), Grace's lack of such makes it difficult to share a language quickly. Grace needs spreadsheets, audio synthesis software, coding, text-to-speech in the film because he can only "hear" (read: see) in one direction at a time. He's functionally disabled to Rocky. Rocky therefore accomodates him which is very sweet. Here's a list of ways in which Rocky is most likely altering his language use for Grace's benefit:
He speaks clearly.
It's mentioned in the book that at one point Grace's translation software (which he programmed himself for all the only-film fans) fails to translate a sentence of Rocky's. Grace is confused and confirms that the software is fully functioning. He realises that the issue is the pitch. Rocky's voice dropped an octave. When he shifts it back into the range the software recognises, it's perfectly translated. This means Rocky must constantly be keeping his inflection and pitch extremely steady and repetitive so that Grace's computer can keep up.
There's an argument to be made that Eridian might just be like that, but knowing what we know about it (pitch change for emotion, it being a highly auditorily complex language made of musical chords, most likely created from at least five sets of whatever equivalent of vocal chords Eridians have, etc.), I find it highly unlikely that Eridian would be so even.
It's much more likely that super genius Rocky, despite never having seen a computer before, quickly realised that it couldn't keep up with those variations without serious programming that Grace isn't good enough at coding to do or manually entering every variation of a word. It's simpler to just speak evenly. And clearly, any mumbling would be a nightmare for the computer to pick apart.
He uses words he knows Grace knows.
Obviously he sometimes needs to use words Grace is unfamiliar with and then they're added to the translator, but have you ever tried to speak your native language to a novice speaker and limit your language to the words they know? It's way harder than it sounds. You naturally fall into expressions and phrases and words etc. that you use with other native speakers, and you often have to repeat yourself with altered versions of the original sentences because you accidentally used words the novice speaker didn't know.
And Grace has a serious ear for language, like, the speed at which he picks up "Eridian" (I'll get to that) in the book is startling. But he's also human and learning an alien language based on nothing but gestures and their simple shared vocabulary. Rocky must be spending a lot of energy keeping himself from simply speaking Eridian as he usually does so that the computer can keep up and Grace too.
His infallible memory definitely helps him remember what words Grace knows, but language is habit, it's a muscle and you don't think about the individual words when you speak. You just have a thought and it turns into words automatically. Eridians either don't have this automisation of repeated tasks in the way humans do, or Rocky is working overtime to keep his speech in check.
He speaks in English in Eridian.
This is the big one. Most users on the English speaking internet are native English speakers and, knowing English speaking countries, most likely don't speak more than one language fluently (not an insult, just a statistic, that's just how it is when the entire world speaks your native language). It's therefore completely understandable that this part of Rocky's accommodation of Grace's slower learning went over most fans on this part of the internet's heads. And as someone from a part of the world where speaking two to three languages is standard, I still imagine it went over most of the people in my area's heads too because most people don't think about linguistics all the time like me.
Anyway, to put it simply, translation is fucking hard. It seems simple, especially if you don't speak more than one, but it's not. Even highly related languages can end up nigh in comprehensible if you translate them directly into one another. The less related the languages are, the worse it gets. A lot of things cannot be translated directly because those types of words simply don't exist in the other language.
Take Japanese. In a super simple basic beginner level Japanese sentence like "watashi no namae wa jon desu", you'd still struggle to translate it. And this is, like, almost comically expansive for how Japanese people actually speak in their daily lives. A causal, fluent Japanese sentence would be nonsense in English. Even this simple basic sentense would translate directly as something like "I my name about John is".
The reason it's so weird is because Japanese uses particles to denote the roles of words in sentences, a lingustic concept that English doesn't have. Here "no" is possessive and indicates that the subject in front of it is the owner of what follows. English doesn't have anything even close to that type of structure and it can be really difficult for an English speaker to wrap their head around the sentence structure of Japanese when learning to speak it, not because they don't understand, but because constructing a sentence like that is so foreign. It takes a lot of mental effort to rewire your brain like that.
Now imagine speaking English with Japanese sentence structure. Imagine doing that and never slipping into real English sentence structure because then your poor Japanese novice English speaker friend won't understand a word. It's not "my name is John", it's "I name John is" and that's giving you the benefit of not having to find replacements for the particles. That would be impossible.
Now imagine you've met a literal alien species and have to start speaking English with alien language sentence structure. I cannot even begin to explain how wildly different Eridian and English likely are in every single way. Hell, they're so different that they're literally unpronouncable to the non-native speaker. And Rocky speaks Eridian with English sentence structure. It's explicitly pointed out in the book. And he does this flawlessly. Never slips up in any scene we get to see. I cannot begin to communicate the mental effort that would take for a human to do. Either all Eridians are crazy good at language or Rocky is just a turbo mega genius at it. Which is honestly not at all out of the realm of possibility.
All of this is to say that Rocky doesn't speak the way he does because that's just Eridian, that would be highly unlikely. He speaks the way he does because the language barrier is THICK and he's putting his entire rocky ass into making it thinner. It's less clear in the film, untouched as far as I remember, but in the book his speech becomes more nuanced as the story progresses. He uses more articles, more pronouns, more conjunctions, constructs more complex sentences, etc. As Grace learns more words and more about how Eridian as a language works, Rocky is fittingly upping the complexity of his speech.
It's never touched on but I have no doubt they spent many an evening (I know, I know, space, let me have this) talking about how Eridian expresses common English phrases and how to say this and that etc. etc. I'm probably the only person who'd find a long ass fic of just them discussing Eridian linguistic concepts and constructs interesting but hey, that's the nerd in me. I am the one writing this post, no one is suprised.
SO, anyway, to summarise, Rocky does a LOT of work to make his speech understandable to Grace. Grace starts to learn Eridian while they're still at Tau Ceti (not made clear in the film but is in the book) but he learns Rocky's frankensteined Eridienglish rather than real Eridian. I bet a lot of the trip to Erid was spent fixing Grace's understanding of Eridian so that he'd understand real Eridian.
By the time we pick back up with them in the biodome 16 years after arrival on Erid, Grace is fully fluent, meaning he must've already done all the hard work to learn proper Eridian which is unsurprising. He's a scientist, there's no way he'd accept just learning Eridienglish and never understanding any other Eridians than Rocky. Gotta be able to catch all the juicy gossip (what new science is being done and how to convince Rocky to convince the science Eridians to let him be part of it).
Anyway, that's my long ramble about why Rocky is a damn trooper and deserves so many accolades for how hard he worked to help bridge the language gap. Rocky is canonically super smart and I need people to see how that also applies to his language use. I love this rock <3
Not my fandom, not my monkeys, but this is fascinating to me because I have never understood and do not like tone indicators like "/hj" but even having never seen the movie or read the book, just based on dash osmosis, I naturally started using "question?" and "statement" at the end of sentences in places I thought needed more clarity, and I knew none of this. I thought they understood each other through movie magic or something. The fact one of them is actively compensating for a linguistic void never even occurred to me.
minor correction: eridian language is specific about pitch; an a minor fifth means something different than e minor fifth, for example. you can't switch chords out or change keys, or your meaning shifts. octaves are the doubling or halving of the frequency (and therefore universal), so eridians use that to show major tone shifts: up an octave for excitement, down an octave for sadness.
since they don't have inflection, the use of tone markers becomes important. the book mentions two that i can remember off the top of my head: "question" at the end of a sentence, like how we use question marks; and a quaver on the first word of the sentence to denote curiosity or excitement.
pacing is an interesting question. in the movie, grace's program would probably struggle with pacing. in the book, grace uses a fourier transform / waveform analysis software to identify the chords one at a time, then translates them using a spreadsheet of english words and the sequence of chords meaning that word.
what might be different with a second eridian, that grace and rocky alone don't have to deal with, is that there are harmonics and overtones. grace's fourier transform picks out the main tones of the chord, implied to be universal among all eridians, but the harmonics are probably unique to rocky and rocky's voice box / sound production organ. (that's something movie!grace's algorithm would likely have struggled with.)
grace is definitely a lot smarter about picking up eridian language than he gives himself credit for, but he's no rocky. eridians have near-perfect auditory memory. it makes sense, for a species whose primary sense is echolocation, and whose language is based on exact frequency tones. rocky probably thinks grace's language is inefficient, being able to only make one pitch at a time, while eridians can make 5. on the other hand, humans can make a wide variety of phonemes, while eridians can only make a whistling noise described as sounding similar to whale song.
backing up op on the points that: rocky is translating to english on the fly while still speaking eridian, which is impressive on its own, and both he and grace resort to simpler grammar for communication to reduce misunderstandings. (grace is not speaking fluent english either! because there are grammatical concepts he's struggling to explain back to rocky! they frequently say to each other: "need word for [very simplified description/circumlocution].")
a big example of something english has that eridian appears not to have is commonplace pronoun/name usage. eridian refers to things fairly descriptively. the ship is simply called "ship"; grace calls it "blip-A" because it's his culture to give it a specific name. the other planets around eridani are called "second planet" and "third planet" since they are second and third from the star, respectively. eridians just call things by their name: whether the given name for a proper noun, or the object name for an improper noun.
but back to the other marker people find charming, since rocky's language has no way to convey tone without question markers, and certainly not in a way that won't confuse grace's translation, especially in the beginning, rocky keeps those in. when rocky says "question" it's really like just reading out "question mark" every time you see the "?" symbol.
Not entirely sure what you're correcting since neither I nor prismatic-bell said Eridian isn't specific about pitch but I agree that it most definitely is. I wouldn't find it remotely surprising if it was tonal in some way too. Oh and inflection is the variation of pitch or tone when speaking so Eridian most definitely uses inflection :)
However, Rocky likely can't use it much when speaking to Grace because of all the aforementioned issues with the translation software. Once Grace starts picking up on the words himself, though, I'm sure Rocky would start using it gradually. Like you mentioned, the translator uses waveform analysis that picks out the dominating tones of a given word which is explicitly mentioned by Grace in the book to be oversimplifying Rocky's speech by ignoring all the other sounds going on (overtones, etc.). He only uses it because it's good enough for his purposes. I'm SO curious what all the little intricacies of Rocky's speech mean, STARS I wish this was a real language. Is this how I get into conlang? (Probably not but my goodness is it tempting.)
And very good point that Eridians can't produce distinct phonemes like humans can! They just "whistle/sing". But with how intricate one can make anything with enough determination, I have no doubt that Eridian is at least as complex as English, if not more. Trust me, my native language has one of the most extensive selections of vowel sounds in the world and we get PICKY and will lightheartedly argue as a pastime about the most minute of vowel differences. Learners hate us <3 /lh (We are very impressed by people knowing literally anything because why would you put yourself through learning this language, please.)
To your point about Eridian having no way to convey tone, I'm not entirely sure what you mean? They could easily convey it through inflection, word order, even conjugation or declension, just like some human languages do. Eridian may only have one phoneme but they definitely get the most out of it. That's not to say Eridian doesn't use the equivalent of Japanese か(ka) or Esperanto ĉu, my point is simply that we don't know. Maybe Rocky is using "question" because Eridian is structured that way, or maybe he's using it to be absolutely sure his tone is coming across the thick language barrier, or maybe the Eridian way of marking a question simply is impossible to communicate with their limited vocabulary and simplistic use of inflection. Kinda like how Spanish questions are hard to pick up on for learners coming from "questions affect word order" languages initially because questions in Spanish rely entirely on inflection.
Oh and about the lack of names for things! I actually find this very interesting. Of course there's the cultural difference of Eridians just not caring to name things in the way humans do. However, on the topic of Threeworld, it makes even more sense that they wouldn't have a name for the other planets because they straight up didn't know they existed until relatively recently. How would they? Space has no air, they can't hear the planets. And Erid has no moon so they'd have no reason to expect that there would be more planets out there. They might've theorised there were, much like many big human discoveries were theorised to be real before being proven so, but regardless, space is a technical thing to Erid, a complicated branch of science that most people have little to no relationship to. They can't see it, much in the same way we can't see atoms. We may know they're there but only people who have an interest in it can tell you much about it, and only experts, whether formal or hobby, can really get into the details. The sky is empty to an Eridian. So even if Erid had a culture of naming things like Earth does, their own solar system would be as distant to them in their everyday lives as distant planets around distant stars are to us. Their "world three" is our "40 Eridani c" (40 Eridani is specified to be a single star in this universe :') ). Just a boring name for categorisation.
Oh also I find it very exciting that you know stuff about music because I sure do not, I am winging my way forward. If I do ever start conlanging this, I'll definitely need someone who knows music theory who I can consult. Or just learn it myself. Like normal people do on a Thursday.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm very curious about much Grace would struggle to pick up the intricacies of Eridian. As mentioned, my native language is notoriously nitpicky with vowel differences so tiny most foreigners couldn't tell them apart if they tried. We have extra letters for all our vowels and still the letters don't cover even close to half the officially registered basic vowel sounds of the language.
So I can empathise with Rocky's PoV of "my goodness how is this person gonna learn to tell all this bs apart?" and I know many people who can empathise with Grace's PoV of "my goodness how am I going to learn to tell all this bs apart?" And yet they learn to anyway. It might be a struggle but immersion can do incredible things. Literally alters how you process sound. And considering Grace lives completely surrounded by Eridian from the moment he meets Rocky, I'm sure he'd eventually start picking up all those tiny nuances. He'd never be as much of a natural at it as an Eridian, both because he learned as an adult and because his ears literally just don't work at that level, but I'm sure he'd get it enough to understand people just fine. Poor him when he meets and Eridian with a dialect different from Rocky's or, hell, an accent. Poor him when he meets an Eridian speaking a different Eridian language.
To that, there's no way such a big planet only has one language on it. They most likely have a common language that most people know, but there's just no way they don't have different languages. Language use is just way too regional for that to not be a thing on Erid too. Unless the culture prioritises everyone speaking the same language. But we tried that on Earth, it's not popular. So there's gotta be at least one other language on Erid, most likely many.
It has just occurred to me that most people don't have a super solid grasp of how languages work, especially when compared to one another, and that this means most people aren't aware of why Rocky's speech patterns are the way they are in PHM. To those who've only watched the film, it should be noted that the linguistics are more detailed in the book, but even still, it's highly likely that most readers of the book don't know enough about linguistics to fill in the gaps left by Weir. And that's why I'm here! Let your local linguistics enthusiast fill the gaps for you.
Break for the Dash™
I've seen people assume that the way Rocky speaks is a quirk of Eridian just being a simple language. While yes, that could be true to an extent, both the film and especially the book make it very clear that Rocky only speaks in stilted, broken sentences because of the language barrier. By the end, he speaks perfectly clearly in complete sentences with humour and sarcasm and natural sounding exclamations. Grace is at that point fluent and understands all the nuances.
This leads to the first hurdle of Rocky's in communicating with Grace in the beginning: Grace is stupid. He's not but to someone from a species that has the auditory equivalent of photographic memory (I don't think this is mentioned in the film but it is in the book), Grace's lack of such makes it difficult to share a language quickly. Grace needs spreadsheets, audio synthesis software, coding, text-to-speech in the film because he can only "hear" (read: see) in one direction at a time. He's functionally disabled to Rocky. Rocky therefore accomodates him which is very sweet. Here's a list of ways in which Rocky is most likely altering his language use for Grace's benefit:
He speaks clearly.
It's mentioned in the book that at one point Grace's translation software (which he programmed himself for all the only-film fans) fails to translate a sentence of Rocky's. Grace is confused and confirms that the software is fully functioning. He realises that the issue is the pitch. Rocky's voice dropped an octave. When he shifts it back into the range the software recognises, it's perfectly translated. This means Rocky must constantly be keeping his inflection and pitch extremely steady and repetitive so that Grace's computer can keep up.
There's an argument to be made that Eridian might just be like that, but knowing what we know about it (pitch change for emotion, it being a highly auditorily complex language made of musical chords, most likely created from at least five sets of whatever equivalent of vocal chords Eridians have, etc.), I find it highly unlikely that Eridian would be so even.
It's much more likely that super genius Rocky, despite never having seen a computer before, quickly realised that it couldn't keep up with those variations without serious programming that Grace isn't good enough at coding to do or manually entering every variation of a word. It's simpler to just speak evenly. And clearly, any mumbling would be a nightmare for the computer to pick apart.
He uses words he knows Grace knows.
Obviously he sometimes needs to use words Grace is unfamiliar with and then they're added to the translator, but have you ever tried to speak your native language to a novice speaker and limit your language to the words they know? It's way harder than it sounds. You naturally fall into expressions and phrases and words etc. that you use with other native speakers, and you often have to repeat yourself with altered versions of the original sentences because you accidentally used words the novice speaker didn't know.
And Grace has a serious ear for language, like, the speed at which he picks up "Eridian" (I'll get to that) in the book is startling. But he's also human and learning an alien language based on nothing but gestures and their simple shared vocabulary. Rocky must be spending a lot of energy keeping himself from simply speaking Eridian as he usually does so that the computer can keep up and Grace too.
His infallible memory definitely helps him remember what words Grace knows, but language is habit, it's a muscle and you don't think about the individual words when you speak. You just have a thought and it turns into words automatically. Eridians either don't have this automisation of repeated tasks in the way humans do, or Rocky is working overtime to keep his speech in check.
He speaks in English in Eridian.
This is the big one. Most users on the English speaking internet are native English speakers and, knowing English speaking countries, most likely don't speak more than one language fluently (not an insult, just a statistic, that's just how it is when the entire world speaks your native language). It's therefore completely understandable that this part of Rocky's accommodation of Grace's slower learning went over most fans on this part of the internet's heads. And as someone from a part of the world where speaking two to three languages is standard, I still imagine it went over most of the people in my area's heads too because most people don't think about linguistics all the time like me.
Anyway, to put it simply, translation is fucking hard. It seems simple, especially if you don't speak more than one, but it's not. Even highly related languages can end up nigh in comprehensible if you translate them directly into one another. The less related the languages are, the worse it gets. A lot of things cannot be translated directly because those types of words simply don't exist in the other language.
Take Japanese. In a super simple basic beginner level Japanese sentence like "watashi no namae wa jon desu", you'd still struggle to translate it. And this is, like, almost comically expansive for how Japanese people actually speak in their daily lives. A causal, fluent Japanese sentence would be nonsense in English. Even this simple basic sentense would translate directly as something like "I my name about John is".
The reason it's so weird is because Japanese uses particles to denote the roles of words in sentences, a lingustic concept that English doesn't have. Here "no" is possessive and indicates that the subject in front of it is the owner of what follows. English doesn't have anything even close to that type of structure and it can be really difficult for an English speaker to wrap their head around the sentence structure of Japanese when learning to speak it, not because they don't understand, but because constructing a sentence like that is so foreign. It takes a lot of mental effort to rewire your brain like that.
Now imagine speaking English with Japanese sentence structure. Imagine doing that and never slipping into real English sentence structure because then your poor Japanese novice English speaker friend won't understand a word. It's not "my name is John", it's "I name John is" and that's giving you the benefit of not having to find replacements for the particles. That would be impossible.
Now imagine you've met a literal alien species and have to start speaking English with alien language sentence structure. I cannot even begin to explain how wildly different Eridian and English likely are in every single way. Hell, they're so different that they're literally unpronouncable to the non-native speaker. And Rocky speaks Eridian with English sentence structure. It's explicitly pointed out in the book. And he does this flawlessly. Never slips up in any scene we get to see. I cannot begin to communicate the mental effort that would take for a human to do. Either all Eridians are crazy good at language or Rocky is just a turbo mega genius at it. Which is honestly not at all out of the realm of possibility.
All of this is to say that Rocky doesn't speak the way he does because that's just Eridian, that would be highly unlikely. He speaks the way he does because the language barrier is THICK and he's putting his entire rocky ass into making it thinner. It's less clear in the film, untouched as far as I remember, but in the book his speech becomes more nuanced as the story progresses. He uses more articles, more pronouns, more conjunctions, constructs more complex sentences, etc. As Grace learns more words and more about how Eridian as a language works, Rocky is fittingly upping the complexity of his speech.
It's never touched on but I have no doubt they spent many an evening (I know, I know, space, let me have this) talking about how Eridian expresses common English phrases and how to say this and that etc. etc. I'm probably the only person who'd find a long ass fic of just them discussing Eridian linguistic concepts and constructs interesting but hey, that's the nerd in me. I am the one writing this post, no one is suprised.
SO, anyway, to summarise, Rocky does a LOT of work to make his speech understandable to Grace. Grace starts to learn Eridian while they're still at Tau Ceti (not made clear in the film but is in the book) but he learns Rocky's frankensteined Eridienglish rather than real Eridian. I bet a lot of the trip to Erid was spent fixing Grace's understanding of Eridian so that he'd understand real Eridian.
By the time we pick back up with them in the biodome 16 years after arrival on Erid, Grace is fully fluent, meaning he must've already done all the hard work to learn proper Eridian which is unsurprising. He's a scientist, there's no way he'd accept just learning Eridienglish and never understanding any other Eridians than Rocky. Gotta be able to catch all the juicy gossip (what new science is being done and how to convince Rocky to convince the science Eridians to let him be part of it).
Anyway, that's my long ramble about why Rocky is a damn trooper and deserves so many accolades for how hard he worked to help bridge the language gap. Rocky is canonically super smart and I need people to see how that also applies to his language use. I love this rock <3
i just remembered that james was fully prepared to be vesper’s house husband and that’s so fucking funny to me. like can you imagine
james falling down the cleantok rabbit hole and getting extremely passionate about spin mops vs swiffers
james wearing an apron that is definitely very cool and very sleek thank you while fussing about his novel accurate eggs
dog dad james who asks q to verify the scientific basis of the new supplements he’s been reading about (said dog also has biweekly grooming appointments and a heated bed)
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i know the entire fandom lives for adrian(the eridian) being at least half the size of adrian(the planet), but i like it when artists artists still draw grace as the taller one. like, adrian is still comically taller than rocky, just not taller than grace. this way rocky gets TWO mates, both the size of mount everest.
So I ofc adore all of the art and fics about Grocky exploring each other’s bodies in the name of science while road tripping to Erid. That said, one thing that’s always in the back of my mind is that Rocky is an engineer, not a scientist. I feel like while he is extremely curious, he’s more likely to want to know just enough to know how something works, and then once he's reached that point he wants to move onto something new. Adrian, however, I do hc as a scientist, specifically a biologist (specifically specifically an ecologist but still).
What I'm saying is that I think Rocky learned exactly enough about Grace’s digestive system to understand how to keep Grace healthy and not a whit more (ew eating gross gross gross) and then one day he walks into Grace’s house in the biodome and Adrian has their claws fully in Grace’s mouth