Radfem No.3947684

crazy to write (paraphrased, implied) “all women fantasise about rape. men are the victims here”

“A woman enjoys intercourse with her man — as she fantasizes being raped by 3 men simultaneously. …

And Men. Men are in pain too. They are thinking, wondering. What is it they want from a woman? Are they at fault? Are they perpetrating this man-woman situation? Are they oppressors? The man is bitter. “You lied to me,” he said. (She did). “You said that you loved me, that you wanted me, that you needed me. Those are your words.” (They are). “But in reality,” he said, “If you ever loved me, or wanted me, or needed me (all of which I’m not certain was ever true), you also hated me. You hated me — just as you have hated every man in your entire life, but you didn’t have the guts to tell me that. You hated me before you ever saw me, even though I was not your father, or your teacher, or your sex friend when you were 13 years old, or your husband. You hated me not because of who I am, or what I was to you, but because I am a man. You did not deal with me as a person — as me. You lived a lie with me, used me and played games with me — and that’s a piggy thing to do.”

(red text/emphasis added by me)

wah wah wah omg the poor men, facing so much hatred.

This is a perfect example of what happens when complex critique gets flattened into outrage and bad-faith interpretation.

Yes, Bernie Sanders’ 1972 essay was messy and poorly written. The opening lines were disturbing, and the tone was confusing but he was criticizing gender roles, about how society shapes both women and men into unhealthy patterns.

He wasn’t saying that women want to be rape, or that men are the real victims. He was saying the system is broken for everyone.

The point was that patriarchy messes with everyone’s heads. That men are trained to dominate and repress, and women are trained to please and submit. That those roles creep into our desires, our relationships, our identities.

This is why I hate performative outrage and bad-faith reading, it assumes that every early writing must perfectly reflect a person’s current values, metaphor or critique can't exist unless clearly labeled, and of course nuance equals guilt.

Literatures, essays, social commentary are often uncomfortable especially when trying to criticize how people are conditioned by patriarchy.

Your post takes the worst interpretation ever,

He was using provocative imagery to criticize how gendered fantasies are shaped by oppressive systems. He wasn’t making a literal claim about every woman’s desires.

You somehow managed to ignore the real critique,

The point is not “Wah wah poor men, men are the real victims.”

He was saying both men and women are damaged by patriarchal conditioning.

Sanders wasn’t centering men as the sole victims he was saying everyone suffers in a toxic system.

Yes, women faced (and still face) systemic oppression but using that to silence any discussion of male emotional harm is reactionary.

Your post assumes that acknowledging male pain means denying female oppression. We can talk about male social conditioning without erasing misogyny.

Men as a group benefit from patriarchal power but individual men are also harmed by the roles that system assigns them.

The question Sanders posed “Are men oppressors?” isn't rhetorical. It invites analysis, contradiction, discomfort. The answer isn’t a simple “yes” or “no.” It’s: yes, and…

Critical thinking gets thrown out in favor of dunking. No effort to read subtext. No desire to ask, What was the author trying to do even if they failed?

beyond that, i’m capable of looking into his underlying beliefs that lead to this. that’s were you’re falling short. I don’t think this is a “bad faith” reading, because i’m not really even criticising what i’ve read, i’m criticising the underlying ideology, and the beliefs that lead to such “poor writing”.

i spoke about this essay with someone else, bernie was trying to do what Zizek has done a few times - that is, look into the ways patriarchy shapes a woman’s sexuality, the effects it has on her sex life and then how men respond to it. Zizek (in my opinion) has done it very well, even though it may be mildly disturbing to listen to. not only has Bernie done it badly in comparison, but he’s done it with the underlying belief that the main concern is men - women’s suffering is only significant because it has consequences on men. i never implied acknowledging male suffering negates female oppression, but when you write an essay on women’s sexuality and then make men’s suffering the focus, it comes off a little poorly, doesn’t it? not only outwardly, but it shows what was going on in the mind of whoever wrote this. that’s my point. there’s the immediate, literal text, there’s the subtext, and then there’s the author. this is about the author and his underlying beliefs. same way there’s a lovecraft book which is a scary story, as subtext there’s the insignificance of man, and then there’s the author’s hatred of christian faith and the idea of “forbidden knowledge”. bernie’s beliefs here is that women’s suffering can only be seen through the lens of how it makes men feel.

You acknowledge that he was trying to critique patriarchy and the effects it has on gender and sexuality, but then reduce that to “he only cares about men.” That’s not literary analysis, that’s projection.

If you think the essay centers male suffering too much, fair but that doesn’t mean the underlying belief is that women’s suffering is only important because of how it affects men. That’s your conclusion not something substantiated by the text itself.

You compared it to Zizek who, by the way, is just as prone to being provocative and confusing and said the difference is that Bernie wrote badly and held the wrong core beliefs. But that’s a leap. A bad sentence isn’t proof of a misogynistic worldview. Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

Hell, Zizek has also made absurd, sometimes misogynistic statements and yet people rightfully or not treat him as complex. With Bernie, you’re not offering that generosity. You’re taking a messy critique of patriarchy and collapsing it into “man says men are the real victims.”

You’re welcome to criticize the structure, tone, or rhetorical choices. I do too. But if your main argument is “this essay reveals a man who deep down doesn’t really care about women,” that’s not close reading that’s just assumption dressed up as insight.

If your goal was to start conversation, great. But if you’re already convinced you know what Sanders really believes based on one piece from 1972, you’re not opening a discussion you’re just declaring judgment. And that’s fine, but let’s call it what it is.

You say it’s not a bad faith reading because you’re “not even criticizing what you’ve read”you’re criticizing “what led to it.” But how exactly are you separating the author’s intention, the actual text, and your conclusion about his inner ideology, without just projecting your interpretation onto all three?

I'll gladly be the one to absolve him of this a feminist -

Bernie,

I forgive you for whatever nonsense you wrote over half a century ago. It's really not a big deal - there are far more important and relevant things to be concerned about.

Love,

Terffany

i do wonder why yall r calling urselfs radfems when ur jumping at the opportunity to excuse men for literally fucking anything, let alone celebrity/politician men. wtf happened to “it’s all men”. i thought i was bad in regards to male sympathy but yall r pathetic. americans have such a fucking issue with idolising their politicians. he’s supporting women’s rights because it gets him more votes. that’s it. that’s the job of a politician. get votes. he does not personally give a shit. that should be obvious to you, i can’t believe it isn’t. would i still vote for him compared to trump? YES? because even if it’s superficial, he will do what voters want.

i’m not saying to not vote left just because i rightfully criticise politicians? leftists criticising leftist politicians is how we make progress. politicians listen to their voters. that’s how democracy works. it is insane to me that yall think criticising a leftist politician will deem the end of leftism.

does anyone know of any good, active, terf/ radfem discord servers that I can join? I really wanna make some friends that I can be truthful to and not feel like I’m hiding away from the world. My mum is pretty much my only other terf friend lol.

does anyone know of any good, active, terf/ radfem discord servers that I can join? I really wanna make some friends that I can be truthful to and not feel like I’m hiding away from the world. My mum is pretty much my only other terf friend lol.

Let me tell you a common situation I encounter:

So, being a college student away from home, I don't have a car here. This means that if I ever need to go anywhere, I need to get an Uber or Lyft or something along those lines.

I always tuck in my Bring Them Home tag, magen david, turn my "am Yisrael chai" pin to the inside of my clothes, etc. I hate doing it, but I have heard of violently antisemitic drivers, and I'd rather not risk it, considering I'm alone in the car with them.

Every time, I call my mom. It makes me safer to have someone on call. And every time, she makes the same two recommendations.

The first is to put in an address of a neighboring house for pickup, because the house I live in has my landlord's car out front, and his car has stickers in Hebrew on it.

The second is, if asked where I'm from, to say Russia. I don't get asked where I'm "really from" unless I'm with my parents usually (they both have strong accents). But it's a warning my mom repeats every time anyway. The choice of Russia isn't random, I was raised fluent and can back up the claim if need be with random knowledge. But I have never been to Russia, except for the airport once to catch a connecting flight to Israel. I was, however, born in Israel, and I've been there multiple times (unfortunately not since 2014 though). So to say I'm from Russia is a lie, and to say I'm from Israel is the truth.

Both are countries at war. Russia, unlike Israel, actually started the war. Unlike Israel, Russia actually does have a history of colonialism, genocide, imperialism, and worse.

So why is it safer for me to lie about being from an aggressor country than to tell the truth about being from a country caught in a war it didn't want?

Antisemitism. Anti-Russian hate crimes globally didn't spike, Russian women haven't been raped as "justice" for Ukraine. Russian businesses weren't commonly vandalized simply for being from Russia. Meanwhile, all of these things were done to Jews as a result of a war Israel did not start.

If this global response to the war wasn't antisemitism it would be equally safe or unsafe for me to give either answer.

But in reality, it's safer for me to lie about being from Russia than to tell the truth about being from Israel.

Egl = elegant gothic lolita, for those who didn't know

also one of the people that brought gothic lolita into popularity was a man who wore the fashion respectfully, never wore anything else (he now owns his own brand, Moi Meme Moite) and still knows he’s male. he’s never said that the way he dresses makes him a woman or anything of the sort. he’s a male who loves being feminine and wearing dresses and even “looking like a woman” but he never mocks women (it’s not like drag, he doesn’t exaggerate physical features and he doesn’t make offensive jokes about it) and never insists that he must be a woman because of the way he prefers to dress

lolita fashion is a feminist fashion, as best as fashion can be. it’s about aesthetics, not body or sex appeal and it’s made by women who were fed up with the way women were treated - partially to draw attention to the issue as a form of public protest

TIM: i like it

woman: holyshitohmygodimsosorryimsosorryiwrongthinked you’re right please forgive me for criticising the misogynistic practices i forgot they make you happy please forgive me

On Friday, pro-Hamas groups on my campus started an encampment. I, along with a few Chabad peers, decided to stick around to keep an eye on things and be aware of the situation.

In that time, a non-Muslim, non-Arab, non-Palestinian girl approached us, and in the conversation when Hamas were brought up, she said she "stands with freedom fighters".

So this is to the girl who stared me right in the face and said she stands with "freedom fighters".

"Freedom fighters" don't cut off a woman's breast and toss it around like a plaything. "Freedom fighters" don't steal babies from their homes and keep them in dark tunnels for months on end. "Freedom fighters" don't take women hostage to hold them at gunpoint and command them to perform sexual acts. "Freedom fighters" don't gang rape civilians attending a music festival for peace, recording the whole thing with pride. "Freedom fighters" don't parade the naked bodies of their victims along the streets and pass out candy in celebration.

Maybe for you, girl who stands with "freedom fighters", this war is just some fandom to follow. You bought your cheap keffiyeh on Amazon and decided you're a revolutionary. Decided to set up camp illegally on campus and deemed yourself a rebel.

But did you stare at your screen in shock as your heart and hope and trust shattered into twelve hundred bloody pieces, trampled in the dirt? Did you frantically text friends to make sure they were home and safe and alive? Did your hands shake as you realized what was being done to your brothers and sisters?

Did you ever stare at a "missing" poster and miss people you've never met, because they're family all the same? Did you stare at graffiti scratched on a baby's face on the walls of your school's Chabad and realize that this is how little your lives and theirs mean to your peers?

Have you ever read the news and seen a Jewish brother murdered in your home city? Felt your heart drop to see another brother dead, so far from the war and yet somehow never far enough?

No, you haven't. Because you think you're such a rebellious revolutionary, standing in front of me in your keffiyeh, supporting your "freedom fighters".

Because you never had to hear your mother say she used to live on one of the kibbutzim that were attacked and realized that this could have been your future.

Because you have never had to look in the eyes of someone who has lost friends and family to your "freedom fighters" and struggled to find what to say to offer even a shred of comfort.

To you, this war is a trend. A fandom. A quirky little phase.

B.)Trans women enjoying and participating in sexual activity doesn’t mean they’re into sissy porn.

C.)Regardless, you cherry-picked these examples from a page dedicated to making fun of trans people, mostly trans women. Some of them are participating in sex work, while others are just random trans women online asking for transition advice. You shouldn’t be bullying either, and the page is disgusting. You’re making fun of them for “not looking like women” which is just reinforcing gender stereotypes and roles. This page also picks on people who are not “conventionally attractive” which is also a standard enforced by the beauty industry, two things you claim to DESPISE. So….way to bite yourself in the ass with this one lmao.

also what kind of question is that? "to be valid"? tf even is "valid" in this context, the Transsexual Seal Of Approval? trans people are whatever they say they are. questioning the validity of that statement is such an unimportant point. no one has everyone's approval all the time so someone will always say we're not really valid for whatever reason. all the matters is that you respect us whether you think our identity is "valid" or not.

anyways. as a trans person with diagnosed dysphoria, i am telling you people without diagnosed dysphoria aren't pretenders, and i have a whole community backing me up. you're also directly contradicting yourself as i am sure you will not get a formal diagnosis for your little play pretend bit, therefore that places you with the "pretenders". if you're trying to say that self identification policies don't work because people will claim labels out of bad faith what i am telling you is self identification policies still do far more good than harm

How do you know I’m cis? I could be intersex. I could have XY chromosomes.

And if you respect my ID as a trans woman, then please stop insisting on speaking over me about issues affecting trans women like AGPs. OP wasn’t talking about trans men and frankly I’m tired of trans men drowning out the voices of trans women like me because you outnumber us 10 to 1 on tumblr.

that is the definition of a straw man argument. or rather, you made up someone in your head to be mad about, and when i pointed out that that person doesn't exist your response was "well i AM that person and your logic ALLOWS THAT! how about that, hm????"

I hate to use this term but you are gaslighting people if you’re trying to claim nothing can be concluded from literal photos we can all see.

Anyway here are some “real” trans women that I’ve talked to

You just read three separate rape threats and instead of proving my perceptions of trans people wrong by saying “oh wow that wasn’t okay, I don’t condone that kind of rhetoric”

You instead chose to sexually harass me and suggest I am aroused by violent sexual threats!

That’s not roleplay. They are talking about real people like me. Raping real people like me.

Because you had everything to gain by saying “yeah those people are out of line” but you couldn’t do it. Your reaction is not the exception.

Most trans people, when shown threats like this say “so what” instead of “wow not okay”.

i genuinely can’t tell if he’s so porn-rotted that his brain melted or if he’s being intellectually dishonest and embarrassing himself tumblr is a crazy website

1. (Almost) daily

2. A few times per week

3. Sparely/a few times per month

4. Just a handful of times per year

5. Very rarely

6. Never

I just wanted to tell you that a friend of mine works for Samaritan health service for their suicide hotline. She told me a 'funny' story.

The majority of her time is spent screening and blocking phone numbers so that the lines are free for people who need help. Why does she have to do this ? Hundreds of times a day men would call up while masturbating, of course they would only stay on the line if the operator was female, which the majority are.