Ghibliotheque in Tokyo

At the Toronto International Film Festival, Film4.com editor Michael Leader talks to documentary filmmaker Mami Sunada about The Kingdom Of Dreams And Madness, her film documenting a landmark year in the life of Japanese animation company Studio Ghibli, during which directors Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata were putting the finishing touches to their final works, The Wind Rises and The Tale Of The Princess Kaguya…"Miyazaki is a bit of an entertainer...""Although I didn't have much to do with animation before making this documentary, I strongly felt that I shouldn't let this opportunity go."

Michael Leader: You originally pitched this project to Studio Ghibli as a 'theatrical' documentary - what did you mean by that?

Mami Sunada: There are many documentaries about Studio Ghibli that have been broadcast on television in Japan. So when [producer and Studio Ghibli executive] Mr Suzuki makes a decision, the question he asks is 'what new thing can be done?' I thought that since this was a very unusual and memorable year, that both The Wind Rises and The Tale Of The Princess Kaguya were being made, then that's what I would like to focus on in the documentary, the comparison between the two directors, their historical relationship, and how each one has his place in the studio.

That's the kind of thing I wanted to bring out in the documentary, but that's something that anybody can think about. And time was passing, the animation was being made, and I really needed to get started on doing this documentary, so I really didn't know what to bring up, but I hit upon the idea that I wanted to make a feature-length documentary.

I wasn't talking to Mr Suzuki inside Studio Ghibli at that point yet, but the only way I could think of getting the concept and what it's like to be inside the studio was to actually get inside Studio Ghibli no matter what, so I asked to do that. Initially, it was Disney that had requested a DVD to be made of this, but I figured that spending a year making a documentary would require me to work as if I was making a feature film, so without even the permission of Disney, I told Mr Suzuki what I wanted to do.

The themes of the film - creativity, craft and coming to the end of your career - are all much larger topics than those you'd find in a standard making-of documentary. It's definitely the basis for a feature film. But there’s also a sense of identity that comes from the way the film is shot, the intimate, single-camera, personal point of view.

Well, in my first film [Death Of A Japanese Salesman] I was shooting my own family, so of course in that case I used a small camera and I was completely on my own. And I was determined that the next film I made, I would have a camera crew, and I would have a sound crew, so that I wouldn't have to do everything all on my own. But, fortunately or not, at Studio Ghibli everybody's working hard, so it would really be disruptive to go in with a large number of people, so I ended up basically just being by myself.

That style has an effect that, in this case, Ghibli is the family and we're being invited to live with them. With that shooting process, you must have had to leave yourself open to chance - and there are threads in the film, such as the sequences where you follow the studio cat, that must have been unplanned. Did the shape of the film change during the shoot?

I thought it would not be the right way to approach Studio Ghibli to have a set conclusion beforehand, and then to take the shots that would allow me to reach that conclusion. I realised that early on. So what I did was that I would arrive at the studio by 10am, when everybody else was starting to work, and I was allowed to be free within the studio, and it was as if I was actually working there myself. And when I came upon some interesting opportunity, then I shot footage. And so it was an accumulation of discovering various incidences that I could use. It was like keeping a diary or a journal.

Often in a documentary there's some kind of major incident to emphasise or maybe overemphasise, but I thought that the feeling that one gets for Studio Ghibli, especially the three main figures, was that they repeat the same thing over and over every day, so it was that kind of feeling that I wanted to project.

Speaking of those main figures, you spend a lot of time in the studio with Hayao Miyazaki, watching him work and following him home. Meanwhile, Isao Takahata is rather remote, and only appears very briefly towards the end of the film. It plays into the film's characterisation of these two very different directors, but was that an access issue?

During the year that I worked on this project, I thought of Mr Takahata nearly every day, and how I could try to get to see him, and I discussed this with Suzuki and Yoshiaki Nishimura, who was working on The Tale Of The Princess Kaguya, but it seemed to be very, very difficult and impossible to have the same kind of access I had to the making of The Wind Rises. So I did want to get closer to Takahata, so I could portray him as well, but the release date for this documentary was set, so I had to give up on that in order to complete the film.

Miyazaki is a bit of an entertainer, so for him to get a release from the work that he's doing, he would talk to the camera. So he was rather easy to deal with, but Mr Takahata takes to the camera in a completely different way. 180 degrees different! So it was impossible, really, to discuss with him.

As you said, the film isn't necessarily centred on a major incident, but the understanding that these films will be the filmmakers' last hangs over the film. Was that on your mind as you were shooting and cutting the film?

The first request that Disney made was to make a promotional film, so I initially thought that I'd cover that Studio Ghibli was making two films for the first time in several years. So retirement and the end of their careers didn't cross my mind at all. But I did realise that this was a topic that I shouldn't let go by without taking it on, so although I didn't have much to do with animation before making this documentary, I strongly felt that I shouldn't let this opportunity go. And I was glad that I believed in the gut feeling I had.

The finished work is not a promotional film at all, but I'm curious to hear what your intended audience is, because fans of documentary and filmmaking in general could take a lot from this, as well as fans of Studio Ghibli.

Initially, I thought of the people who were strong fans of Studio Ghibli, who've been waiting for this portrayal of the people who made the animations that they love so well, and knew both directors very well. But as I made the film, not only did I want to make the film for those fans, but also I thought of having a record of what these masters of animation were like in their daily lives as they created their works, and as portraits of their human qualities - as people rather than just filmmakers.

I find it very interesting that you previously worked as an assistant with Hirokazu Kore-eda, especially considering that he's a director who started in documentary and moved into fiction. What did you learn from him?