Citrus

Have Lia go through a hair journey to represent her finding herself again (I a the biggest advocate of this ever)

Have Daisy have an arc where she frees herself from external pressure, and let her get a bob to represent that (cutting hair as a sign of freedom).

Have Jake have a red shirt (or some sort of red in his design) too show how he went from a weak and cowardly bully, to being friends with the people he bullied and growing a back bone (doing a 180, being the opposite of how he was and red being the opposite of blue {his old shirt color} on the color wheel).

Have Hailey dress in more less baggy clothes. Not in a way that sexualizes her, but in a way that shows she no longer feels the need too hide. She's broken out of her stage fright and anxiety more. She's more confident in herself.

For one, we've spent four—soon to potentially be five—seasons developing Mike and Elevens dynamic. To say they don't reciprocate feelings too one another is a disservice to hard work the writers have done for almost ten years. It's complicated, and not without struggle. But they clearly love and care about each other.

With Byler, I understand why it's a ship. I understand why people want them to end up with each other. But, I don't see in cannon how it works out. I know a lot of people think Mike has romantic feelings for Will, but me personally I just don't see it. I think he definitely cares about Will, but he's shown Will the same exact level of care that he has all of his friends. He literally almost jumped off of a cliff for Dustin in season one. That doesn't necessarily make him in love with Dustin, or mean they'll end up together at any point. It's just in Mike Wheelers character to care deeply about all of his friends.

But even putting that aside—even if Mike was in love with Will—I don't think they should end up together. A lot of people are working off the assumption that Mike has internalized homophobia, or is in denial. Maybe that's the case, and if so he needs to work long and hard on that before he ever gets in a queer relationship. Also the way he treated Will in seasons three and four was bad. Very bad. And put his inability to properly communicate on fully display. Yet another thing he'd need to work on before being in a relationship with Will. Or any relationship for that matter. Will deserves better than that.

(which by the way the season for Will+Mike subplot was really annoying and repetitve because I thought we'd already been hashing that out. But that's a whole seperate conversation to have when I finish my Season four rewatch).

The only reason it's different with Mike and Eleven is because they've already been together. They have that baseline. They're both flawed in the relationship. El feels the need to lie and Mike struggles in a romantic context. It's something that they struggle with together. But that we've seen can be resolved in all the seasons past.

But even if they can't resolve it again, I wouldn't be mad if they don't end up together. Because these are relationship hindering issues. I will, however, be upset if they break up for all of these reasons and then end up in different pairings. If you break up a relationship because of these issues only to put each person into new relationships it's bad writing, lazy in fact.

And any of this can't be off-screen, by the way. Because that's unsatisfying to viewers, the same way any relationship dynamic changes would be. Because what's the catalyst? Do we the viewers not get too see? Maybe if they make episode one of the season a flashback and forward episode. But even then I don't quite like that.

I feel like there's not enough time to properly establish whole new ships. Only for solidifying and developing current ones, or breaking up any couples. There's not enough time to last minute throw Mike in a new relationship or El in a new relationship. There's not enough time to do any of this last minute throwing people together who haven't previously been together.

If Byler becomes cannon I'll be upset for the same reason I'd be upset if Steve and Nancy end up together. It's understandable how it could happen. But it's weird writing and I don't think it'd make sense with the work the writers have done thus far.

For one, we've spent four—soon to potentially be five—seasons developing Mike and Elevens dynamic. To say they don't reciprocate feelings too one another is a disservice to hard work the writers have done for almost ten years. It's complicated, and not without struggle. But they clearly love and care about each other.

With Byler, I understand why it's a ship. I understand why people want them to end up with each other. But, I don't see in cannon how it works out. I know a lot of people think Mike has romantic feelings for Will, but me personally I just don't see it. I think he definitely cares about Will, but he's shown Will the same exact level of care that he has all of his friends. He literally almost jumped off of a cliff for Dustin in season one. That doesn't necessarily make him in love with Dustin, or mean they'll end up together at any point. It's just in Mike Wheelers character to care deeply about all of his friends.

But even putting that aside—even if Mike was in love with Will—I don't think they should end up together. A lot of people are working off the assumption that Mike has internalized homophobia, or is in denial. Maybe that's the case, and if so he needs to work long and hard on that before he ever gets in a queer relationship. Also the way he treated Will in seasons three and four was bad. Very bad. And put his inability to properly communicate on fully display. Yet another thing he'd need to work on before being in a relationship with Will. Or any relationship for that matter. Will deserves better than that.

(which by the way the season for Will+Mike subplot was really annoying and repetitve because I thought we'd already been hashing that out. But that's a whole seperate conversation to have when I finish my Season four rewatch).

The only reason it's different with Mike and Eleven is because they've already been together. They have that baseline. They're both flawed in the relationship. El feels the need to lie and Mike struggles in a romantic context. It's something that they struggle with together. But that we've seen can be resolved in all the seasons past.

But even if they can't resolve it again, I wouldn't be mad if they don't end up together. Because these are relationship hindering issues. I will, however, be upset if they break up for all of these reasons and then end up in different pairings. If you break up a relationship because of these issues only to put each person into new relationships it's bad writing, lazy in fact.

And any of this can't be off-screen, by the way. Because that's unsatisfying to viewers, the same way any relationship dynamic changes would be. Because what's the catalyst? Do we the viewers not get too see? Maybe if they make episode one of the season a flashback and forward episode. But even then I don't quite like that.

I feel like there's not enough time to properly establish whole new ships. Only for solidifying and developing current ones, or breaking up any couples. There's not enough time to last minute throw Mike in a new relationship or El in a new relationship. There's not enough time to do any of this last minute throwing people together who haven't previously been together.

If Byler becomes cannon I'll be upset for the same reason I'd be upset if Steve and Nancy end up together. It's understandable how it could happen. But it's weird writing and I don't think it'd make sense with the work the writers have done thus far.

And while that's all true, I've noticed some people the the opposite impressions

Some noting that the jomies feel like an actual of genuine friend group, while the music club feels more strained, or like a friendship of convenience. (I definitely remember that being a confession like 2ish years ago on here)

I'm not sure if I'd agree with such a claim myself, or if I would know anything regarding the subject either, as Im not in a friend group myself and only have 1 friend that I really know, so I'm not sure as to how it all really functions, so I don't think think I really have a say in this all, but it's interesting to note some of the fandoms reaction? Idk

I of course am not saying the music club has to be written with all perfect cookie cutter (is that the right term) bonds with no flaws but, for example, take Milly n Zander? U could say it's all just friendly teasing between the two of them, but I don't think either has ever actually had a positive interaction with the other, some might get the impression that they actually just genuinely dislike each other.. Zander in particular doesn't have notable friendships w sean or Milly. (And is only slowly warming up to Jake but that's a different thing)

While the jomies, for all their imperfections, might simply give the impression to the audience that a lot of it feels like they genuinely care Abt each other? IDKIDKDIKDIDK that's just what I've heard others say, idk how *I* actually feel about it but again I think it's interesting to note

IFK IM BULLSHITTING IM GONNA REGRET TYPING ABY OF THIS OUT aFTERWARDS ARENT I

And while I do love them, I wish they expanded on their care for each other more. I want too see the club go to bat for Milly against her bullies, them comfort Sean about his home situation, help Hailey through complicated feelings about things. Same with Zander. And then I want Luke fleshed out more period.

Of course I then also want the whimsy fun hangouts. But the best way to endear people to a group is too have them connect emotionally.

And while the Dromies also sort of lack that, they make up for it with small interpersonal details being fleshed out.

We know about Henry's affinity for anime, memes, and anime games/"virtual Novels." We know about Liam's scene phase, flirty persona, and the fact that he's a little mean to his friends in a funny way.

We know Drew likes gaming, is an honors student, is rich. We have other more fleshed out personality traits and parallels to other characters.

There's also a bit of intrigue. because they're the antagonists.

We get more from the Dromies. And because of that we know they have different interest's and hobbies. That they all do like gaming but that there's stuff outside of that too. And they're so different from each in these terms that they don't feel like a friendship born of convenience. Made for survival (surviving bullies) or "safety in numbers" purposes.

*Disclaimer - This is no hate anon or their opinion. They have not said this disrespectfully in anyway. It is simply the opinion.*

I could disprove this by listing the *several* characters in the show that are worse characters. In terms of writing, morality, and even just stand-outish-ness (not a word, don't question me).

You have Luke, who so far is a nothing sandwich.

You have Zoey who is so far just a spicier, ruder, nothing sandwich (sorry Zoey stans. but in cannon so far theirs really nothing there. I do hope there will be soon),

You have Hailey, whose writing is a bit all over the place.

There's more examples of each, because the cast of character is so large. But y'all get the point.

Jakes own character writing is so good. I think people just discount it, because it's not something that requires one million plus brain power to understand. Because he's the main character we see things from his POV. We hear his internal monologue, and we know all the important parts about his life that contribute to him as a character. It's not information we really have to work for.

Whereas with characters like Drew or Lia, they're side characters. So to really understand their writing you have to pay a bit more attention to what they say, how they act in certain situations, and even how they move and behave in certain scenes. It's more work to analyze them. So it feels like they're better written.

But honestly Jake is definitely a top three character in terms of writing (in my humble and non-important opinion).

His response too the world and his own problems as a result of his trauma and childhood is very realistic. His inability to properly communicate stems from a fear of abandonment. Which results in him bottling up his feelings and not telling people what he's actually thinking.

It's realistic, it's something victims of bullying often struggle with.

He parallels a couple of the characters, too.

Lia, in how they're both bullied and then become bully's as a result. Drew in their inabilities too communicate and very clear fear of abandonment.

He foils Hailey, in that she chose to double down on being herself in response to the bullying. Whereas Jake changed himself to fit in and find friends. She became kinder, he became crueler. Lia foils her in that way too, which is another way Jake and Lia parallel each other.

I'm sure on rewatch I could find even more parallels. And I'm sure in season two we'll see them.

All of this is too say, Jake is very well written. It's well thought-out and we can really see the evolution of his character (and Rosy's writing abilities) over the course of the episodes.

He's certainly not the worst morally, either. Not when you have characters like the Dromies (I love them, but like come on now :c ) and Zoey.

So uh. Can someone explain to me why so many people like him? I mean he’s a cool antagonist and all, but I get the feeling most of those who like him weren’t drawn in because they immediately started doing deep psychoanalysis on him, so what initially drew (no pun intended) people to him? Like is it just vibes or…?

(This isn’t hate towards people who like Drew, I’m not trying to call him overrated or anything, I’m genuinely curious).

So there's actually a lot of different reasons I think people in general like him. With different levels of validity (That's not me saying people can't just like him for beacause. When I say that I'm talking about those Drew Stans. If you catch my drif). | | V (The those in Question): Of course there's the simps. People who think he's 'fine.' So they basically don't care about anything else he's done. Those also happen to mostly be the same people that sexualize him and other minors in the cast.

Then there's people who have an idealized version of him in their head? If that makes sense. They took the fanon UwU soft boy version of him and made it canon in their minds. And suddenly any bad thing he did is excused because he's their 'precious baby.'

For me personally, he has a lot of good writing. Like he parallels a lot of the cast. Jake, Hailey, Lia (The beginning of my Dria shipping obsession), even Daisy in some ways (I have a post about these two here, because I know this will raise a few eyebrows). Also it's the way Drake and Droey parallel each other. Two Dynamics that Drew is apart of. And the way Halia and Drake parallel each other, Drew playing a part in that. Plus, he's written in a way where at the end of the day you're supposed to sympathize with him slightly. Like despite the massive flaws he has (being a bully /:) you feel a bit bad for him. Because everyone knows that feeling of watching the person you care about most in this world be with someone more than you. It sucks. So we're supposed to feel for Drew in those moments. Despite everything else.

Not to mention everyone he knew and trusted lied about his girlfriend cheating on him. And he did really care about her, even if it as at a different point in time (another post about them here lol).

Like it's clear there's a redemption arc being set up here. When talking about character arcs, I tend to use Azula and Zuko as examples. Because they're the two primary directions you can really take an antagonist character. It's redemption versus damnation. Most antagonists get one or the other.

But some rare cases, an antagonist gets both. They have their damnation moment, and then they start their path to redemption. Like Hunter for TOH. He had his Azula breakdown during Eclipse lake, and then post Hollow Mind he was able to have his redemption arc.

I think the season finale of TMF was Drew's little 'damnation' Azula moment. He broke down, made increasingly poor moral choices and eventually lost his dearest friend in the process. Almost a self-destructive move. So now, like Hunter from TOH, after a bit of suffering he'll probably get a redemption arc.

So that makes me personally feel more invested in his story. Modern humans are hard-wired to see the best in each other. We all love a good redemption story. So I imagine the idea of a Drew redemption could draw in a lot of potential Drew fans.