Blood on the Leaves and Blood on the Root

Here are the final threads from the second article. Can you tell I am starting to get a bit upset?

Andy Gould

Amazing how many people have their minds made up about what happened and really don't want to be bothered with facts. Once we have all of the facts and accounts from both sides of the gun, developing an opinion would make some sense. But people like Chemizzle really frighten me. To think that people with such a limited grasp of reason and logic are allowed to vote, might explain how we end up with some of the clowns we have representing us. It further explains why we have mobs protesting and rioting before all of the evidence is even known.

Chemizzle

I have my mind made up on two facts. One: Mike was unarmed. Two: He was not given the right to a fair trial, his judgement was handed down in the middle of a two lane street.

Make that three. Three: the police did not release the name of the shooter for a week. When do police ever take a shooter into custody and not release the name?

I scare you as a voter? Because I expect law enforcement to uphold the laws and not take them into their own hands?

You say I am developing an opinion with out the facts, but yet you refer to protesters as a "mob." Pot? Kettle?

Go ahead Andy, come on out and say what you really mean.

Mark Turpin

Chemizzle 1. you don't have to be armed to be a threat. 2. There are witnesses saying he ran away and then turned back to charge the cop. These things make me wait for all of the evidence to come out before I come to any conclusions and certainly keep me from labeling this an execution, as you have. It's called reason based upon facts, not conjecture. I encourage you to try and withhold judgment until all the facts have been released...

Chemizzle

Mark Turpin Mark, I appreciate your comment. It is one of the first that I have read that seems to come from someone who has truly not made up their mind. That is a sound and respectable response.

I personally find it hard to believe that an unarmed 18 year old civilian can generate a "defense-of-life" situation to a trained and experience officer. Especially if that officer is equipped with non-lethal weapons. Which is my understanding that Ferguson cops are armed with.

So, I don't feel I am making an error in calling this a execution. The word is a bit harsh, I admit to that, but I stand by it. At best this a VERY preventable tragedy. '

Too many unarmed black and latino men are shot by police. Too many civil rights are violated on daily basis. Too long have police forces been allowed to carry out their own investigations. Too long have police forces brushed their misdeeds under the blue carpet. The fact is we may never hear the full details in this case. The prosecutor's office has already said that they will not make the finding of the autopsy public.

While I respect your decision to wait until all the fact are out. I know that it is unlikely that they ever will.

John Schmee Schmiemeier

So Chemizzle If the Feds come back. and mind you the AA Gentelmen that run those org's as wellas the white house realize that they have to vist every nook and cranny.This will be one of the most scrutized cases in U.S. hisory, If they say the police were within their rights and that no crime has been committed as determined by the evidence accourding to the writen law of the land. this was legel. however if he had made ths small adjustment to the time line it would have been muder, but he is inocent. wll you be able to say . I did not understand the law. I think that law is wong and I will try and fix it I know who ever comes out on top , if you can come out on top with something like this? will know the outcome is fair and just. we eed toget outof the nationa spot light and back to progress.

Rob Wack

Andy Gould As a clown with a severely limited faculty for reason and logic, you shouldn't actually vote at all.

Chemizzle

John Schmee Schmiemeier I did not understand your post or your questions as they were both a bit jumbled. However, I would like to point out that the FBI is not investigating the shooting. They are investigating if civil rights were violated in regards to the police occupation.

The decision of if this a "legal" murder will fall in the hands of the prosecute and the police chief.

David E. Dickinson

In the film i seen of protestors they were taunting the police.

Ray Sanders

Chemizzle I have my mind made up on two facts: Michael Brown had just strong armed robbed a convenience store. Michael Brown was 18 and 6 ft 4 inches and weighted close to 300 lbs. It appears Brown thought that he could throw his weight around and intimidate people and take whatever he wanted.

Make that three. Michael Brown thought he was going to be caught for the recent robbery and didn't want to go to jail. That is why he physically assaulted the police officer and tried to get his gun.

There were protester there and there were also a mob in the middle of them. Protesters don't burn and loot. People in a mob do.

Chemizzle

Ray Sanders So you set of known FACTS include what victim's inner thoughts? I am not sure that you understand the definition of fact. Look it up. Let it sink in. Then get back at me. I appreciate the cute attempt to structure your post after mine, I really do. But, next time, please try to fill it with substance. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Then you go on to justify someone referring to protesters as a mob. Yes, there were two sets of people, one were protesters, one was a mob. Calling the protesters a mob is just inflammatory at best.

Where is your outrage for the cop that was attempting to incite a riot by calling Ferguson residents animals and telling them to bring it on mother f***ers? Is he not the ultimate thug?

<END OF THREAD 3, START OF THREAD 4>

Jane Lindemann

Chemizzle, the officer had his gun out bc Brown had just pummeled him in his face and possibly tried to take his gun. He shot Brown (according to the witness on video) bc Brown, who was a very large man, turned around and proceeded to walk back towards the officer, even while being shot at. The witness himself says he assumed the officer was shooting and missing bc Brown just kept coming at him.

Chemizzle

Wait. How do you know the shooter was pummeled in the face? Or that the victim tried to take the shooters gun? Why are you only willing to take into account the one eye witness statement that might give the slightest amount of support to your idea of what happened? He also said Mike was walking towards him, why don't you take that into account?

I am being accused of rushing to judgement. But, you are the one who has already exonerated the shooter.

BTW, aren't cops still trained how to subdue an unarmed man?

Ronald Coughenour

LOL Chemizzle: "Aren't cops still trained on how to subdue an unarmed man"? I don't care how well trained you are, going up against a 6'3", 300 lb man, your gonna have your hands full and then some. Very smug Chemizzle, but not even close to reality.

Greg Holder

Chemizzle "BTW, aren't cops still trained how to subdue an unarmed man?" -Not when he is 6'4" and 290 lbs.

Chemizzle

Ronald Coughenour & Greg: He keeps growing and growing. Started off at 6'1" in police reports. Now he is 6'4". Post-mortem growth spurts huh?

The officer was 10 yards away from Mike when he shot him. 10 yards. How was an unarmed 6'5" Mike going to take the officers life from that distance?

Rob Wack

Chemizzle Umm, Chemizzle, you need to understand magical thinking. To some extent all people engage in it. In the St. Louis metro area, at least in regard to race, it's an epidemic and always has been...at least as long as I've been alive, and that's a very long time. It involves having some sort of 'holy and sacred' point of view which is sacrosanct and not subject to mere fact because "everyone is entitled to his own opinion" (a point of view which is, itself, idiotic since if your point of view is based upon false assumptions and spits in the face of fact it's an entirely worthless and pointless view deserving of nothing but ridicule).

In other words, people who engage in magical thinking as a crutch to support their 'freedom of speech' will always insist that their 'freedom of speech' trumps fact, no matter the consequen... See More

Chemizzle

Rob Wack So don't feed the trolls? Or, feed the trolls in the hopes that you find some ready to evolve? Then keep going until the majority have evolved?

Ray Sanders

Chemizzle The officer was taken to the hospital with facial injuries. The pictures will be shown at the trial. The eyewitness account matches the police officers account.

Chemizzle is entitled to her own opinion" (a point of view which is, itself, idiotic since if your point of view is based upon false assumptions and spits in the face of fact it's an entirely worthless and pointless view deserving of nothing but ridicule.

Chemizzle

Ray Sanders There are many inconsistent eyewitness accounts. Even statements from the police have been inconsistent. My only opinion is that it is extremely unlikely that this officer needed to shoot an unarmed man from 10 yards.

I also believe that; officers need to make better use of the non-lethal tools they are given, that they need to be equipped with front-facing cameras, and that they need outside oversight.

Here is a brief thread where I get called not to bright for trying to solve a situation without bloodshed.

Phil Spieth:

Chemizzle has never been in this type of situation and therefore has no clue as to what happens. I already said that there was perhaps more deadly force used than necessary however, I was not there and Chemizzle could thank god she was not either. If you are being charged by a big dude who already tried to take your gun away you would probably shoot as well and if he keeps coming shoot again...I don't know and neither does anyone else until we get everything that happened.

Chemizzle:

Thank you for speaking for me, however you are completely wrong. I have been in this situation I have stepped in front of guns in an attempt to stop violence. I have put my self in dangerous situations to stop other people from getting hurt.

In the future, please only speak for yourself Phil.

Ray Sanders:

Chemizzle Not to bright, huh?

Chemizzle:

Ray Sanders How is attempting to distill violence ever not smart?

Since this tread was short, I will share a few more of my comments that don't require the comments from others to be understood.

Chemizzle:

I agree that he (Ferguson Police Chief) is confused and incompetent. Every step of the police response was wrong. According to multiple eyewitnesses, the officer shot Mike from his truck. The police didn't get an ambulance out...ever I don't think. They let him lie dead in the street for 4-5 hours. They transported his body in an SUV, not an ambulance or coroners vehicle. They over responded to protests, basically making Ferguson an occupied zone. They didn't release the name of the officer for a week. But, they did manage to release a photo and video of the victim.  I don't agree that the chief should not give any interviews. If anything he should give more interviews. In depth interviews where the truth might come out. If the police are interrogating you, they don't give you a break to get your stories straight.

Chemizzle:

The police have stated that he was unarmed. Why does it matter if his hands were up or not? St Louis is a very messed up place if cops are allowed to shoot you depending are where your hands are and not what is in them. "More than a few, but not by many." - That is what the chief said about how many time Mike was shot. How many bullets does it take to ensure you are safe from an unprotected man?

Chemizzle:

This was the first article where I decided that I should make comments and try to fight back against some of the racist craziness that was littering the comments section.

There are many sub threads in comment section of the article on this page of stltoday.com, so you might have to read all of my posts on article two for some of the comments to make sense. 

Aside: I learned quickly that facebook is a terrible format for the comments section of an article. I hope that news agencies more to a more usable format like reddit or common forum format. My apologies if some of this comes out jumbled.

Phil Spieth

I feel for this young mans parents...(parent) I know the grief of losing a child. However, this was no gentle giant good boy that his parent wants us to believe....Does that mean he should have been shot...Until you find out everything ...you cannot make a decision.....as for the looters....the media is the blame...again

Chemizzle

HE WAS UNARMED. As in did not have a weapon. That is called an execution. How do you even attempt to justify that? Why would you attempt to justify that?

Because he stole a pack swishers?

Tim Montgomery

Chemizzle If he tried to remove the gun from the cop (this never ends well), then he was working real hard to become armed!!! But you keep going with that!

Chemizzle

Tim Montgomery Even if that happened, he never got it. Which means that he was not armed. How many times do you have to shoot an unarmed person before you can safely put on handcuffs?

Tim Montgomery

Chemizzle If it comes out that the cop was pummeled in the face buy Mr. Brown would you change your mind?

Jane Lindemann

Listen to the witness description beginning at the 6 minute mark. He says that Brown turned around after initially running away. The officer fired but the witness thought the cop was missing bc Brown just kept coming at him! http://youtu.be/VdL9dqkyjhM

(NOTE: This is the first time someone suggested listening to a faint background conversation, instead of listening to the eyewitness recounts in interviews.)

Hans Moline

Those who have had their minds made up from the beginning are those who believe facts are irrelevant .

Facts are only important as long as they support their case . So far , not one fact supports their case hence the ignoring of facts .

(NOTE: This is a reoccurring theme, where anything that is pro-cop is fact, and anything else is someone ignoring facts.)

Chemizzle

Tim Montgomery Would I think he deserved to be shot in the street? Or that the officer had no other solution that to shoot him 4-8 times?

No, I will never believe that either of those situations were necessary because someone punches you in the face.

If it comes out that Mike was armed, or running at the officer while threatening the officer, and was within a reasonable distance of mounting a physical assault, then yes. I would wholeheartedly change my opinion.

Tim Montgomery

Chemizzle He was shot 3 times, Twice in the chest and once in the head (not in the back as many have stated) first off! Lets get the facts straight! #1 "If it comes out that Mike was armed, or running at the officer while threatening the officer, and was within a reasonable distance of mounting a physical assault, then yes. I would wholeheartedly change my opinion. #2 "HE WAS UNARMED. As in did not have a weapon. That is called an execution. How do you even attempt to justify that? Why would you attempt to justify that?

Because he stole a pack swishers? How can you make both of these statements?

Chemizzle

Tim Montgomery First off, how do you know he was shot three times? The only official statement from the police that I have read or seen was the chief saying "He was shot more than a few times, but not many more." The normal accepted value for "a few" is 3 or more. Not many more than three would suggest that it is more than 1 more than 3. I have heard multiple eyewitness accounts that 7-8 shots were fired. It might have been 3 times, I am just curious as to where you read this number.

Secondly, I can make both statements for 2 reasons. 1) Because that statement was in response to a post that implied that if he was not a "good boy" then the shooting might have been justified. Admittedly, the implied interpretation is loose.

2) I am capable of changing my mind when presented with evidence. If evidence arises that he was armed and attacking, I will feel that the shooting was justified. If he was unarmed, evidence of extreme danger to the officer would have to be presented. It would be very hard to convince me that shooting an unarmed man is in any way justified. But, I am open enough to realize that a situation might exist that I have not considered.

(NOTE: A coroner's report came out two days after I made these comments, and showed that Mike was shot at least 6 times.)

Ray Sanders

Chemizzle A 6ft 4inch man weighting 300 lbs can beat a person to death. A person that big doesn't need a weapon to kill you with. He can do it with his bare hands. You have led a very sheltered life. Do you live in the black inner city? If not, why not?

Chemizzle

The next comment that caught my eye was from an ex-cop (Zach Miller). His comments should scare you. I know they scared me.

(His facebook account is linked in the last line of this post.)

Chris Ray:

In these areas police wont investigate those types of robberies after a few hours if any at all .just like yhey dont investigate burglaries. U have 2 be from these places or familiar 2 understand u cant spin this story 2 anyone except 2 ppl sheltered frm it

Zach Miller:

I would say at night when the police are busy responding to numerous black on black crimes you'd be right that it could take hours for the cops to show up and investigate a robbery, but this happened in the middle of the day. Crime comes out at night, so I'm sure the nearest officers would immediately respond to a robbery.

Chris Ray:

Zach I've lived n white & black neighborhoods. Police response is completely different. How many different neighborhoods u've lived in?

Me:

Zach Miller Responding to numerous "black on black crimes?" Where and how is this statement even close to necessary? Did you know that a study showed that whites in Ferguson are more likely to be carrying contraband than blacks?

Or did you just assume?

Did you just assume all those days and nights you spent on the force?

We are all lucky that you are no longer a cop.

----------

That was the end of that thread of comments, but here are some other gems from this ex-cop.

Zach Miller:

According to the cop, who by the way has zero issues, complaints, or infractions during his 6 years on the force, he was assaulted and had his gun almost taken from him. Judging from the facial and head injuries the cop sustained, he may not have known Mike put his hands up. Oh and Mike is a thug. Did you see him assault that gas station attendant, and have you gone on case net and see his arrest history which contains multiple arrests for assault and robbery? I'm pretty sure thats the definition of thug.

(NOTE: It was never said that the cop had zero issues, complaints, or infractions - only that he had never been disciplined. Coming from a police department that suffers from systemic racial profiling, are we supposed to believe that zero disciplinary actions equals zero complaints?)

(NOTE 2: Being less likely to be called a "thug" is #4 in this list on white privilege - read article here  )

Zach Miller:

What a useless comment. No one is insinuating Mike died for jay walking and stealing cigars. He was killed for assaulting a cop and trying to take his gun. The video of him assaulting the gas station worker and robbing the store id only proof that Mike in fact not walking to grandma's like his family claimed he was and it also proves to the public that this "innocent gentle giant kid" is in fact a 300 pound thug. I feel bad for that cop he had no idea what he was rolling up to that day.

(NOTE: This is the first case of assumed innocence of the cop despite eyewitnesses that all say Mike was first shot while running away.)

Zach Miller:

I have a theory. Cop pulls up to Mike telling him to get off the street, Mike thinking the cop is there because of the assault and robbery loses his composure, cop tells him to stop, mike begins to walk away, cop grabs at him from inside the vehicle and a scuffle breaks out. During the scuffle the cop gets his face bashed around a little and the cop draws his weapon, both fight over the gun and a couple shots are fired, Mike starts to run, the cop fears that Mike is a danger to society and begins to empty his clip. Hearing gun fire Mike begins to throw his hands up to surrender, the cop running high with adrenaline doesn't notice/can't focus or hear over the sound of his weapon. Mike falls to the ground dead.

Of course I was not there so chances are this didn't happen at all

(NOTE: Him stating that he was not there and his narrative means nothing was a nice touch)

Vernon Taylor: Too bad you weren't there.

Zach Miller:

Vernon Taylor I know right? I guess the other side of the story makes more sense. Office Wilson woke up that morning put on his boots and said to himself "well time to go kill me a black kid." Poor gentle giant baby mike brown who was walking to grandmas house just so happened to be the first black kid Office Wilson came across. Poor Mike was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. And we should defiantly negate the fact that the gentle giant has priors for assault and robbery while gun slinging Office Wilson has worked for the PD for 6 years without ONE complaint or infraction. I suppose we will just have to trust the eyes witnesses who for some reason have all told different stories.

(NOTE: Right here where he is willing to throw out the black eyewitnesses version of the incident in favor of his own self-constructed version is him confirming that he is a racist. He did not want to leave it for debate though, here is his next comment where he doubles down on his racism.)

Zach Miller: 

I trust the word of a 6 year PO who has a clean record more than I believe in eye witnesses who were raised to hate and distrust the police. The media has nothing to do with my perception in this case. Common sense prevails my friend.

After reading an article in stltoday.com, I was reading through the comments and this was the top one at the time.

Shelley Powers:

"And Wilson _was finishing up on a call when the first description went out_.

They have already stated he stopped the two young men for "jaywalking"

But this doesn't suit a racist agenda, and I have no more time to deal with bigots."

Mike Greenbeck:

"Shelley Powers --"bigots". Sheesh you people are all the same. As soon as you come close to losing any argument due to facts you don't like you throw down the Race Card, get all sanctimonious, stomp your foot, and off you go to Internet never-never land.

Well *sweetie* here's a clue, the Race Card's been revoked due to overuse & abuse and folks don't fear it any more. In fact the name calling is now comical. Oh, and let me guess, my comment to you is Racist, right? (rotflmao).

You're all so utterly pathetic."

Me: 

"Mike Greenbeck -- No it was sexist. Who are "all you people?""

Shelley Powers:

Over the past week of so, I have made a lot of comments on the situation in #Ferguson, the #MikeBrown killing, and the #KajiemePowell killing. I posted comments in newspaper comment sections, twitter, and facebook. I decided I should post them all in one place. 

I really don't think my comments are the important part here, more it is the responses I got to my comments. Almost every one of my comments was attacked, and almost all of those attacks included thing I did not say and over-the-top assumptions. 

Above all that, they were unbelievably RACIST replies. The fact that people were willing to post such hate filled comments blew my mind. Not that they had the thoughts, but that they would "say" them out loud on an account that has their name.

I guess it is naive of me to think they wouldn't be so bold. But, it has always been my experience that racists only share their true feeling when in a group of people their own race. 

Anyways.....