https://rwbytalk.wordpress.com/2019/02/25/bumblebee-was-always-the-plan-part-2
Remember that "Bumbleby was always the plan" post that I did a critique on over a year ago? Yeah apparently it got a sequel (not in response to my post, this sequel I think came long before I did my analysis) and someone sent it to me in inbox, soooooo I'm gonna critique that one too.
Also, quick important note that also applies to the first post, but please do not harass the OP or send them hate. We may not agree with their takes, but it's never okay to harass others over it. Just be a decent human being.
So it kinda starts off with the OP seemingly apologizing that Blake could be lesbian. A bit of a weird place to start off but yeah. From what I can tell, both of these posts were made seemingly before Arryn commented about Blake being bi. I'm not gonna get into it cause it's a complex topic and I wanna focus more on the actual analysis.
Again, there were a few that didn’t like that I compared BB and BS, which they interpreted as a dick contest. That really wasn’t my goal. I did that because those were the ships involving Blake that had a chance to happen (Catmeleon and Enabling-abuse2 were not on the table) and I was arguing for Bumblebee having been the plan all along (which, to me, implies that Black Sun was meant to be a red herring, though I didn’t flat out say it – sorry, I didn’t think I needed to). The point was to illustrate how there had been hints for Bumblebee.
I argued for that way before volume 6 by pointing out several clues like the dance arc, the songs and the injury. At the time, someone asked me how I could know BB wasn’t the red herring. There are 2 reasons why:
• While it’s not lacking in hints and foreshadowing, they are (mostly3) on the subtle side when compared to the very obvious Sun’s crush on Blake;
Honestly, the "subtle" arguments don't really hold much ground when Bees actually have zero relationship development in the first few volumes. Yeah, they do have interactions, but they're too few and far between, they're not consistent. Only one or two of them are actually significant to the plot and the characters, but even then, we actually don't see them develop as a relationship like we do with, say, Arkos or Blacksun.
Subtle romance means that the audience shouldn't see it right away, but it doesn't mean having them interact every now and then while neglecting relationship development between them. They want me to believe Bees had subtle development from the start? Show Yang actually contributing more to Blake's story like Sun did, have her care about Blake's faunus issues. Show Blake actually being closer and more friendly with Yang during their dance at the ball and afterwards. Maybe then, they'd have actual relationship development.
• They’re a LGBTQ+ pairing. There are huge double standards when it comes to LGBTQ+ in comparison to hetero ones – many people will deny the first one until it’s impossible to do so. The point of the bait and switch is to have a little twist and you can’t have that if a significant part of your audience notices the switch, but doesn’t see the bait.
While mlm/wlw relationship erasure and double standards are indeed a thing, that's not the case with Bees. People deny Bees' romantic validity in the first few volumes because they just don't have as much to go by compared to BlackSun.
And if you have doubts about the last point, remember: in 6×11, Adam attacked Yang out of jealousy, then Blake held her hand while making a speech that put them as equal in contrast to Blake-Adam, a relationship where one of them constantly tried to make the other feel small (the point of the infamous speech). There were many denying BB. Then, he tried to make Yang feel insecure about Blake by telling her she had made the same promise to him and asked the super platonic question: “What does she even see in you?” and people still tried to deny it. In the last episode, Blake and Yang spent the time holding each other’s hands and yet, there are still people denying it. Not that I’m complaining, since it only increased my celebration time. It was like: episode 6×11, “yeah! Bees” for 3 days, the internet crashed my party for one, then 6×12, “yeah! Bees! This time is for sure” for another 3 days, again I had my enthusiasm dashed and finally, “yeah! Bees”. That time it stuck. So thanks guys! It would have been bad if by 6×13 I had already used all my fireworks.
What does any of this have to do with Bees "always being the plan"?
These are all events in V6. Just because they were there in V6, doesn't prove that they were being planned or "subtly hinted at" in the earlier volumes.
If you thought BS was going to happen – that’s normal, because it was the bait. If I am aware that people tend to think of others as straight until proven otherwise, why do you think the writers aren’t?
Except we don't say that the writers aren't aware of that. The writers can very well be aware of that while still pushing Blacksun at the start.
I may not live in the same country as them, but I still consume a lot of USA’s media and I know that if guy stalks girl, he usually gets her. Not to mention, the number of times media announces a LGBTQ+ character as tactic to gain some support yet deliver nothing, like saying Dumbledore is gay even though there’s nothing in the films or books indicating it (let’s leave the conversation about the “word of God” for some other time). There were more than a few LGBTQ+ people who were afraid Bumblebee would turn out to be just that: queerbaiting.
While I wouldn't say RT are necessarily queerbaiting, they are very low-effort with their rep.
By late February 2019 (which seems to be when this post was made, taking place near the end of V6), our other canon LGBT+ characters in RWBY are:
Scarlet David, confirmed gay, had 2 lines and very little screentime.
Ilia Amitola, confirmed lesbian, her revelation as being sapphic was at the worst possible point in the show (why is her unrequited crush on Blake relevant to the Adam/White Fang stuff???) and then she's written right off the show in V6
The Cotta-Arcs, a sapphic couple, only had one episode of screentime
In short: RT does make a fair amount of LGBTQ characters, but most of the time they're one-note/side characters that get little screentime or get written off the show.
Even by now, that's still what most if the rep is like.
A few months later, Coco is confirmed lesbian, but this is only shown in a side story novel after Coco's been written off the show. Then as V7 comes along, May Marigold is introduced as the show's first canonically trans character, but many people saw this as a "rep for brownie points" situation as this confirmation is in a Tweet rather than being acknowledged in-show (however May being trans does eventually get acknowledged in V8). Then in 2020, Nolan from Team BRNZ is implied to be mlm, but this is only in another side story novel, and Nolan himself as a character has a very minor role in only one episode.
And don't even get me started on the fairgame issue. Although Qrow and Clover weren't inherently romantic or romantically-coded in canon, there was a lot of carelessness on RT's part as they did seem to push it as a romance in Tweets outside the show, leading people to understandably see their interactions in the show as romantic.
Again, OP gets some leeway on this since this post was made long before stuff like the fairgame issue, but my point is that people being worried about Bees being just queerbaiting is understandable considering how RT generally handles LGBTQ+ rep.
Miles and Kerry knew all of that and, more importantly, they were aware that you knew it too, so they played on your assumptions to make their bait-and-switch. However, there were plenty of hints that Sun was just the red herring and that Bumblebee was going to happen. Last time, I focused on the latter, this time let’s concentrate on the first. Let’s take a look at Sun and Blake’s relationship, shall we?
Ob boy. Here's the juicy stuff now huh?
Sun was introduced in the last episodes of V1 and Blake trusted him immediately, because… he’s a Faunus.
I mean, considering Blake is from a group that is established as one that is marginalized and oppressed, it makes sense that she'd be more trusting of another faunus and more willing to open up to him than she would of a human.
We all saw how Weiss was just talking about the faunus and White Fang as scum. We all saw how Blake felt about that. And we all know how Blake hides her faunus trait under a bow to hide that she's a faunus, pass as human, and avoid facing discrimination. We all saw how she ran away once she accidentally revealed herself as a faunus and ex White Fang member when she said "Well maybe we were just tired of being pushed around!". Blake is clearly already weary about opening up to her human teammates about her faunus experience, and for very understandable reasons.
Though she told him about herself and the White Fang, he showed immediately he’s not on the same page as her as Faunus rights mean a lot to her and little to nothing to him.
Not all couples are gonna immediately be on the same page at the start. And keep in mind, this wasn't even a major disagreement or argument. It was really just Sun immediately seeing the White Fang as criminals. It may not be as nuanced a perspective as Blake's, but he's not dismissive of her interest in Faunus rights. He's naïve at worst.
Sun refers to the White Fang as criminal scum, yes, but a statement like that has less impact coming from a faunus than it does coming from a human like Weiss. Coming from a human, there's the risk that they're also discriminatory against the faunus.
Also, funny how OP says "faunus rights mean little to nothing to Sun" to put BlackSun down and uplift Bumbleby when Yang, surprise surprise, has zero involvement or interest in Blake's plight. Sun may not have had the same perspective as Blake about the White Fang stuff but at least he was actively involved in following them.
In 2×01, Sun talks to Neptune about Blake and concluded “and the best part is she’s a Faunus”, which goes completely against Blake’s words in the next episode “I want people to see me for who I am, not what I am”.
Sun is a faunus. Blake is a faunus. They're both from a marginalized group. We don't know what kind of racism Sun has experienced, but he surely knows at the very least that faunus racism is indeed a thing in Remnant. Both of them are part of marginalized groups, so this line comes off less as Sun being shallow and seeing her as just for what she is, and more as him being excited to meet another person from the same group as him. It's an expression of solidarity.
As a Muslim woman living in America, I can sort of relate to Sun in this sense as I'm also like "OMG fellow Muslim" when I meet someone else who is Muslim. That's basically what Sun is doing, "OMG fellow faunus". He's in every right to be excited about that and it doesn't mean in any way that he only sees Blake for what she is.
Also, friendly reminder that Yang gets Blake's attention based on a cat stereotype a few episodes later. I know Miles and Kerry intended this as a joke rather than as for Yang to be racist, but considering the context and how faunus are established as an oppressed group, it's racist. So if you're deciding who was seeing Blake more for what she is, I'm just gonna tell you it's not the guy with the fuzzy tail.
She began going on a downward spiral to which he reacts with “Is she being all Blake-y?”, while Yang’s the one who gets through to her by exposing her own vulnerability.
I'll admit, this is somewhat of a point Yang may have over Sun. But the BTC talk ends up still being a moot point as to whether Bees was planned or not considering their relationship doesn't go anywhere after that talk.
Sun not fully understanding Blake is something the show hammers in our heads quite a few times even in more recent volumes. Like when he assumed she’s on her way to fight the White Fang when she was actually going to Menagerie to rest.
Blake literally just left without a word. Of course Sun's not gonna fully understand why she left. Sure, you could argue that Blake isn't obligated to explain it to Sun, but my point is that you can't really fault him for not understanding Blake's intentions right.
Oh also, for anyone wondering what Yang was thinking on why Blake left... I give you this scene from V3 Ch12.
Yang: "And Blake ran! Sun saw her go. After we got to the city, she just... ran!"
Yang: "I don't know... and I don't care."
Ruby: "There has to be a reason she-"
Yang: "No, there doesn't! Sometimes bad things just happen, Ruby!"
I mean, I get Yang just went through a very traumatic event, I get if she's avoiding dwelling too much on Blake's departure, but they're not exactly doing a very good job in convincing me that Yang was considering Blake's feelings.
Blake literally just ran off to God knows where (we know she went home but Yang doesn't know that) without a word while Vale is in a state of danger and crisis. If RT really wanted me to believe that Blake and Yang were a thing by this point, wouldn't they at least have Yang be worried for Blake?
The way Sun went about following Blake was way out of order mind you, and he did misinterpret why Blake left, but we tend to give the points to Blacksun here because the writers make it clear he's got the mindset of sticking by Blake's side and helping her out. Let's recall some quotes from V4 Ch3:
Sun: "You always felt like the Fang was your fight. They show up, trash your school, hurt your friends. It makes perfect sense!"
Blake: "I can't believe you."
Sun: "But there's no way I'm letting you do this alone! It's an honorable approach, for sure, but you're going to need someone to watch your back. And that's where I come in! (putting his arm around her) Us Faunus got to stick together, after all."
Note the bold text. Sun wants to stick by her and look out for her. He wants to help her out. Dude clearly cares about her interests.
Sun: "So, if you're not going after the White Fang, where are you going?"
Blake: Home, to Menagerie.
Sun: Well, I'm coming with you. The Grimm are getting worse; you saw it yourself! And just because you're not going after the Fang doesn't mean they won't be coming for you! Besides, I'm... kind of already on the boat.
Again, note the bolded text where Sun addresses clear and present dangers. Again, it's clear he has the mindset of looking out for Blake. It doesn't mean he thinks Blake is a damsel who needs protection as he is well aware that Blake can handle herself. He just wants to be by her side knowing that Vale and Remnant are in a state of crisis and that the White Fang (specifically Adam) had gone after her.
And just to clarify, by no means does this mean we think Blake "owes" Sun her affections or attraction (I will actually be needing to address this later in this critique). We bring these things up because they demonstrate Sun's consistent care for the Blake and hence why we believe they have the stronger relationship in the show.
Or suggested destroying the WF while Blake wanted to take it back.
This is a moot point since Sun's suggestion that she destroy the White Fang happened while they were on the boat, while Blake didn't decide she wanted to take back the White Fang wasn't until the end of the volume.
In volume 3, they had literally no interactions besides him winking at her in the Vytal Festival
Fun fact, Blake and Yang also have literally no interactions in most of V3 besides basic teammate interactions.
– yes, she blushed, which can be explained by the fact that he did it in front of an entire stadium or that she had a crush on him. Personally, I’m inclined to the latter, but it really doesn’t mean much: not all crushes lead to something. A lot of them are a result of idealization and I think that was the case for Blake. By the way, I have to speak of Blake’s crush as likely, not certain precisely because it was never actually confirmed.
I think it can mean something considering: Bllake opened up to him about her plight with the faunus and then they chased down the White Fang twice together before spending the night at the dance together.
See, this is the part where BlackSun is stronger while Bumbleby is weaker. Blacksun has more consistent interactions once Sun is first introduced and most of them are connected to Blake's White Fang story. Bumbleby's interactions are few and far between, and only a few of them are connected to Blake's story. Also Yang hasn't shown even an ounce of interest in Blake's White Fang stuff.
When Yang asked Weiss where Blake and Ruby were, Sun was there, yet it was Yang alone who went after Blake.
To be fair, Sun had just finished fighting a bunch of Paladins with the others and was likely exhausted.
The next time we saw him, it’s after their injuries and he is noticing an injured Blake grabbing Yang’s hand.
No, this shot doesn’t exist to show Sun seeing Blake injured, because he already knew that. He had just told Ruby that Yang was going to be OK, and the one who brought her there was Blake. Not to mention that if the point was to make him notice Blake’s injuries, it makes no sense for their hands to appear. Yang would have been kept out of the frame, instead of taking up more space than Blake. To me, this is the moment where Sun realizes Blake’s feelings for Yang. If the intention was for him to notice Blake’s injured, it would have made much more sense to see his face, then cut to her, then back to him reacting. Yes, they could have done the same with their hands, but this way they left it more ambiguous which was probably the intention. It would have made no sense for them to choose that if it was meant for Black Sun, because the audience was more than aware he was interested in Blake. We had been since V1 as there was never anything subtle about their relationship.
The way that this scene was framed means nothing. If you wanna talk about what "makes no sense", it makes no sense for this one bit of handholding to signal to Sun that Blake had romantic feelings for Yang. Especially since he hasn't been present for any other moments that could have potentially hinted to him that Blake had feelings for Yang. The very most he can learn from this is that Blake is worried for Yang, that she cares about her, that she's sorry for what happened to her.
In volume 4, he flirts, Blake is usually either apathetic or downright annoyed. The exception is after the injury, and like I said, he’s the one who brings up Yang, revealing he realizes the bond between them.
The way I was expecting this argument to pop up once I saw the "Sun realized Blake's feelings for Yang when he saw them holding hands" argument.
Anyways, I already typed out a whole bunch of paragraphs on why this argument is bullshit so I'll just plug the screenshots from this post of mine.
He is also hurt by the chick whose feelings weren’t reciprocated (I talked about that at length in part 1).
And I talked about why that argument is bullshit in my part 1. 🤠
In volume 5, their relationship is platonic.
No elaboration was given on this. Come on...
(tw/ up ahead, the following image that was included in OP's post uses the wlwphobic slur that begins with D. I have censored it in this image and will be censoring it if it pops up again throughout this post, but I'm still including this warning. Keep in mind that no matter how much you disagree with Bumbleby or this post or whatnot, it is never okay to use slurs unless you're reclaiming ones that are used against you.)
After everything he’s done for her (that she didn’t ask for)
This is usually phrased in a disgusting way.
There is a lot to unpack here.
First, it’s ridiculous to think you can be owed love/getting into someone’s panties. You can’t. People either love you/want to do you, or they don’t. If you want to do something for someone else, great, but do it because you want to and like (not necessarily in a romantic way) said person or because you’re altruistic – don’t expect a reward. This is what you sound like to us:
You wanted the guy to get the gal, fine. You know you can watch that in almost everything else, right?
Second, it’s idiotic to associate getting the girl with masculinity or not getting her with being “cucked”. If your notion of being a man is tied to getting someone else, that’s on you. If you need someone else to feel good about yourself, maybe you have some underlying issues to address (another reference to Crazy Ex-Girlfriend – watch the show, especially if you’re making comments like the one I showed: you need it. I feel like Arrested Development‘s narrator in “S.O.B.s”).
Third, even by the logic of “after everything I’ve done for you”, Sun doesn’t win, because Yang paid a much bigger price: she lost an arm and had PTSD while he had a minor injury from which he had basically recovered by the next episode. This isn’t a “Yang deserves her” either – that argument is nonsensical no matter the pairing being defended, I’m just pointing out that it doesn’t even favor BS.
While I definitely agree with most of OP's arguments here, I really need to clarify something here. A lot of BB shippers (not necessarily OP, but a lot of others) seem to think that the argument in the image is basically what our logic is like. A lot of people seem to think that BlackSun shippers believe Blake "owes" Sun her affections for helping her out. This is not true with the majority of Blacksun shippers.
Yes, we do bring up Sun helping Blake as a point in favor of BlackSun. But this is not to argue that she owes him. This is to argue that A) Sun would be a great partner for Blake, and B) as I mentioned above, RT has ultimately shown with this that Blake and Sun have the stronger romance.
BlackSun shippers are well aware of the fact that Sun didn't expect anything in return for helping Blake. In fact, we love and defend the ship even more because of that.
By the way, I noticed that a few people completely missed the point of why I compared Yang’s injury to Sun’s and think I did it to indicate Yang deserves it more or to win (?). It’s a bit confusing because I flat out say why I made the comparison, but here it goes again: it’s not to say Yang deserves Blake, but to indicate that, in fiction, we usually associate romance with higher stakes. I literally wrote:
“I think Yang’s and Sun’s injuries are everything I should need to prove the likelihood of BB as they contrast the two main Blake ships: Bumblebee and Black Sun. While heroes tend to save many people who are indeed just friends or sometimes not even that, there’s a reason why Superman and Spiderman usually include Lois Lane and MJ (or whoever the love interest is in said film) in the climax – it makes it more personal, raising the stakes. From this perspective, it’s easy to understand the importance given to either by comparing: what the injury was, who caused it, why and Blake’s reaction, thus allowing to conclude which couple was given more weight.”
“[…] point Bumblebee as the first one is more associated with romance.”
That was me explaining what the points were as well as why I was comparing the 2.
And yes, paying attention to dramatic weight is completely valid, we are talking about fiction after all.
I'm going to use this opportunity to expand on some of the arguments I made on this in part 1.
Yes, Yang's injury does hold more dramatic weight. Yes, Yanng is given more association with the guy Blake had a relationship. While I don't think OP is necessarily saying "Blake totally owes Yang for the arm thing", my problem with their arguments here is that you can't rely on associations and dramatic weight alone. And that's just the problem with BB, it relies too heavily on elements like associations or dramatic weight or "color schemes". But with consistent significant interactions, there's just not a lot to go by.
You can by all means allude to romance using these sort of elements, but they mean nothing if the relationship development and interactions are inconsistent. This is why, in my opinion, the "subtlety" arguments fail.
It’s not like we accidentally walked in on a guy threatening a gal and saying “I’ll destroy everything you love… starting with her” as another woman appeared in real life. Things happened the way they did because writers (editors, directors, etc.) wanted them to.
I brought this up in another post but I feel I should address it here too.
Adam's "I’ll make it my mission to destroy everything you love… starting with her" line feels very weak as a Bumbleby confirmation. Adam says "I’ll make it my mission to destroy everything you love", sees Yang calling for Blake, sees Blake react in fear, and then says "Starting... with her."
I say this is weak because Adam is unaware of any possible romance between Blake and Yang. Not only does Adam have no idea who Yang even is, but what he sees in that moment that makes him associate Yang with being someone Blake loves isn't enough for him to deduce that they're romantic. If you replaced Yang in this scene with Weiss or Ruby, it would have played out exactly the same. (Though, in Weiss's case, there'd likely be a different response from Adam considering she's a Schnee... but that's a discussion for a different post)
Even if we assume hypothetically for the sake of this argument that Blake and Yang are blatantly romantic. We the audience know Blake is in love with Yang. But Adam does not. All Adam sees is some random blonde chick he's never seen before searching for Blake, that Blake at the very least clearly cares about. This scene would have more emotional impact romance-wise if Adam knew that Blake had specifically romantic love for Yang.
Don’t pretend you didn’t know that it’s relevant that the one who caused Yang’s injury was Adam, Blake’s ex-boyfriend, while Sun’s was caused by Ilia, the friend whose feelings weren’t reciprocated, and that it doesn’t say anything about the links Adam-Yang and Sun-Ilia.
Again, the ship is relying more on dramatic associations and less on consistency of interactions.
I lost count of the number of BSers who wanted Sun to fight Adam and wanted him to be the one taking the latter down (even though it would get in the way of Yang’s closure), which shows many of you were perfectly aware of the importance of said connection.
Most people wanted Sun to fight Adam now because "They should fight over Blake" but rather because Adam's role as the "faunus rights leader turned extremist terrorist" was getting sidelined, along with the whole faunus discrimination arc in general just being so poorly handled.
As for the [wlwphobic d-slur] representation… (the fact that they phrased it that way is very telling) if it was just that, then any lesbian couple would do. RWBY is about 4 female characters. Seriously, how come people never ask themselves why this one is so popular, even though Yang and Blake aren’t the most popular characters? From what I’ve seen, Weiss and Yang are.
The claims of “pandering” and “SJW” have been raining for a while and I expect them to continue until they realize CRWBY can’t be bullied into erasing BB. Count on that to happen whenever a show reveals a main character is LGBTQ+ mid-series (unless it’s a particularly progressive show). If your reaction to seeing LGBTQ+ characters is to call it “pandering”, it says a lot about you, none of it good.
I know that we perceive straight white male as default. This is so entrenched in our culture that the first Transformers didn’t have any female transformers because the writers thought it would require an explanation. Yup, apparently you need an explanation to include half of the world’s population.
This is honestly kind of a messy conversation. Heteronormativity and the idea of cishet white male being considered the "default" or the "norm" is indeed a thing. But I often do see these "pandering" arguments (not all of them) coming from actual LGBTQ+. From what I gather, a lot of them want their rep to be done well and have effort put into it rather than for media to just pull a JKR and confirm a character or characters as LGBTQ+ for the sake of "getting brownie points".
I suppose screaming “pandering” is better than to pull an EF and say “Bumblebee was and is the safest LGBTQ ship they could have done. Lesbian couples are the safest representation a show can make […] It’s more comfortable to see woman on woman action just because of how fantasized they are”, which:
• doesn’t justify why BB is the safest LGBTQ+ couple as there are a ton of lesbian couples possible (White Rose, Checkmate/Monochrome, Freezerburn, etc.);
• fails to consider the high number of LGBTQ+ women in RWBY when compared to LGBTQ+ men probably has something to do with the fact it has more female characters;
• when did we see woman on woman action in RWBY? How did I miss that episode?
Ok, so I mostly agree with these points, nothing much to say here...
• if lesbians are so appealing to straight men, how come they’re the ones whining the most about BB?
The whole straight-men-like-lesbians while being the ones complaining about them is particularly odd to me. It doesn’t sound like they like they are spending their time wrapped up in sexual fantasies. Maybe they are and can’t stop. And that’s why they don’t like Bumblebee anymore… Poor things… But really, it just sounds like they need some kind of… safe space.
You can tell them not to worry. They still have most shows/books/films. And for the next 2-4 decades, they’ll be able to count on Disney (taking shots at it since my very first post).
This though? Fuck this whole part. Many LGBTQ+ (wlw included) have been and are very vocal about their dislike and criticisms of Bumbleby, and neither you nor anyone else are in any place to assume that it's mostly just straight dudes who are upset over Bumbleby.
And that seems to be the end of the post.
But there is one more that was sent to my inbox... so stay tuned for that maybe.
