[Interview] "Handmade games may become like the 'Studio Ghibli works' of the future"—Jenova Chen, who leads thatgamecompany on its 20th anniversary, talks about Sky, Van Gogh, AI, and the next new game.
［インタビュー］「手作りのゲームは，未来の"ジブリ"になるかもしれない」――20周年のthatgamecompanyを率いるJenova Chenが語る，Skyと，ゴッホと，AIと，次なる新作
世界で知らない人はいない画家であるゴッホの生涯が体験できるという，ゲーム業界でも珍しいタイプのコンテンツを7月17日に追加したのが，「Sky 星を紡ぐ子どもたち」だ。これを機に，久々にJenova …
[Jenova Chen’s Assessment of GenAI]
🔸Generative AI deprives people of opportunities for face-to-face communication. 🔸Generative AI is also taking away the time that future audiences would otherwise spend on "carefully handcrafted games and other content." 🔸Jenova's honest sentiment is: "If I find out content was made by AI, I don't want to pay for it." 🔸TGC’s internal policy: Handle tasks requiring "human authenticity" manually, while using LLMs to streamline QA testing and debugging—all while remaining mindful of whether "authentic judgments" are being made by AI. 🔸It might be difficult to place absolute trust in generative AI at its current stage.
4Gamer: I recall discussing something similar a couple of years ago, but given the current global climate—marked by visible conflict and division—the importance of the "compassion" embodied in this game may be greater than ever. Jenova: Thank you. I believe its importance is growing by the day, especially with the rise of AI.I am already concerned that young people aren't talking face-to-face enough. Everything can be handled online, and there are even people now who prefer chatting with AI over real human beings. 4Gamer: It’s hard to fathom, but yes—there are quite a few such people. Jenova: The distance between people is widening. It reminds me of our last conversation: back then, at least, players from nations at war with each other were sharing the same servers. You had players from Russia and Ukraine, as well as Iran and the United States. I think it’s a good thing that they can share the same space. "Sky" is like a small theme park—a bit like Disneyland—but since the players are real people living in the real world, they sometimes bring real-world conflicts into the community. That’s why we devote so much effort to "tending the garden" and maintaining those boundaries.
4Gamer: …Actually, we’re already 30 minutes past our scheduled time—is it still okay to continue? There are a few more things I’d like to ask. Jenova: We can spare a little more time. Opportunities for us to speak like this are quite rare, so I’m truly grateful for the time you’ve given us. 4Gamer: The feeling is mutual; I’m always grateful as well. It’s been two years since we last met, and I feel the biggest change during that time has been AI. I’d really like to hear your stance on it. Jenova: I see—so the topic is AI. Well… up until about a year and a half—or maybe 16 months—ago, I didn't think AI posed a major threat to our business. We strive to be innovators; we aren't trying to imitate what’s already been done. So, even if AI quickly churns out a rehash of existing material, it doesn't offer much value. However, after seeing Fable 5 recently, I have to be honest: I’ve started to feel it is a genuine threat.
4Gamer: What do you perceive as the biggest threat? Jenova: I don’t think AI will take away the jobs of filmmakers—in fact, it can't do that yet. However, what AI has actually done is create a new category of "low-budget, short-form videos" that capture the audience's time. While they don't compete directly with movie theaters, they are definitely taking away time from people who otherwise would have gone to see a movie. 4Gamer: Ah, that’s a very apt way to put it. It seems like games might face a similar situation. Jenova: Nowadays, people are satisfied with short-form videos. With Fable 5, for instance, we saw scenarios where a child could ask AI to "remake a game like Red Dead Redemption 2" or create a Temple Run clone but swap the character for a classmate to tease them. Then, their classmates would take that code and keep modifying it. This is becoming a new form of entertainment, and it will inevitably eat into the time future players spend on "carefully handcrafted, premium games." That’s why I’m worried—not about my company, myself, or my work—but rather about the world of the future.
4Gamer: Generative AI has already reached a level where it’s quite capable, and the number of games appearing on Steam has exploded—and is continuing to increase at an accelerating pace. I get the feeling that your concerns might well become reality in the near future… Jenova: Of course, I’m confident that AI-mass-produced games still can’t compete with us when it comes to quality. That said, I do worry that I might eventually become something of a "dinosaur." Take hand-drawn shading, for example: Studio Ghibli remains popular, but there are hardly any creators making that kind of animation these days. Ghibli is able to keep going because their storytelling and art direction are world-class. However, studios that lack that world-class sensibility are all shifting toward 3D animation—and recently, toward AI-generated animation. I worry that handcrafted games might end up like a future version of "Studio Ghibli works"—relics of the past that barely hang on until the creators themselves grow old and pass away.
4Gamer: To be honest, it’s hard to flatly deny that possibility at this stage. Jenova: I tend to get a bit emotional and pessimistic when this topic comes up, but I really wish this process would move a little more slowly. 4Gamer: I couldn't agree more. I’m something of a tech junkie and generally an optimist—I love AI itself—but the idea that, in the near future, even the storytelling aspect could be entirely created by generative AI… well, that doesn't strike me as a particularly fun future. Whether it’s Studio Ghibli or—on a completely different scale—people like us who write for a living, we face a real dilemma: in this era of generative AI, what exactly do we, as the "handcrafted" camp, need to prove to our audience? Jenova: Take AI-generated video, for example. Two years ago, everything fell squarely into the "uncanny valley." Even a year ago, there were very few AI videos that actually looked good. But suddenly, this year, we’re seeing AI videos with excellent "direction." There are so few elements that give away the fact that it’s AI—honestly, you can enjoy them without even caring whether it’s AI or not—and that’s the scary part.
Jenova: If the director behind an AI-generated video puts the same amount of effort into directing the AI as they would a traditional project, the work resonates with me. However, if I find out it was made by AI, I wouldn't want to pay for it. That’s the key difference. I can appreciate it as art, but I don't want to spend money on it. 4Gamer: I see. I understand that, but… I do worry that the times—and society—might be moving faster than we anticipate. But let's not get too gloomy; let's look at the positive side. Will the advancement of AI technology impact the "form of play" at thatgamecompany moving forward? Jenova: Let's talk about our internal policy, then. It took quite a while for us to finalize it. Many artists were strongly opposed to AI, fearing it would take away their jobs. But after much discussion, we reached a consensus: in areas requiring "human authenticity"—such as designing how a player moves—it’s more of a "craft" than a science. Whether a character moves swiftly or slowly requires a human sense of what feels right, so we handle that manually rather than relying on AI code. On the other hand, for tasks involving tools—like QA testing and debugging, such as running a character into every corner to check if they clip through the floor—we use large language models to make the process highly efficient. Creators don't mind if a tool is AI-generated, but they do care if an "authentic judgment" is made by AI. That’s our approach. 4Gamer: Well, debugging is certainly an area where AI excels. Jenova: Take Van Gogh, for example; there are over a thousand letters exchanged between the brothers (Vincent and Theo). We don't have time to read them all, but if we ask AI to "find letters containing these specific elements," it can instantly locate the ones we want to highlight. In the past, we would have hired interns to read through everything and make the selections, but now AI can do it much faster and more cheaply. 4Gamer: But doesn't that kind of task still lead to hallucinations? Jenova: It certainly does. For instance, when I had the AI quote a letter, 60% of the content was "fabricated"—stuff that wasn't in the original text (laughs). That’s why you have to be extremely careful when using AI. It might be difficult to place absolute trust in AI at its current stage.
うーん……正直に言って、生成AI規制派の私は、TGCの生成AIに対する社内ポリシーには賛同しかねます。 現状に納得できず、TGCを辞めた(あるいは辞めようと考える)人がいるんじゃないの？
私はTGCのこのアプローチが長期的にうまくいくとは思えません。生成AIデータセンターの電気と水の浪費や環境破壊、生成AI依存による認知機能低下や後継者育成の悪影響など懸念事項が山積しています。彼らがAIツールを長く使い続けるほど、その費用も増えていくでしょう。
あと、「SkyのQAテストやデバッグでLLMを活用してるなら、Steamのストアページで生成AIを利用してることを開示すべきでは？」と思い調べに行ったけど、生成AI利用の情報開示のルールが変わっていたようです。 アートワークやサウンド、物語、ローカライズなど、製品内に含まれユーザーが利用するコンテンツにおけるAIツールの使用は情報開示の義務があるけど、開発効率化AIツールの使用は開示の対象外だそうです。
Hmm… to be honest, as someone who advocates for the regulation of generative AI, I cannot get on board with TGC's internal policy regarding it. I imagine there are people who aren't happy with the status quo and have either left TGC or are considering doing so, right?
I don't think this approach of theirs will work out in the long run. There are so many concerns—from the waste of electricity and water and the environmental destruction caused by generative AI data centers, to the cognitive decline and negative impact on training the next generation of talent resulting from a reliance on this technology. The longer they continue to use AI tools, the more expensive it will become.
Also, I wondered, "If they're using LLMs for QA testing and debugging on Sky, shouldn't they disclose the use of generative AI on the Steam store page?" So I went to investigate, but it seems the rules for disclosing information about the use of generation AI have changed. While there is an obligation to disclose the use of AI tools in content included in the product and used by users, such as artwork, sound, story, and localization, it seems that the use of AI tools to improve development efficiency is exempt from disclosure requirements.
Interestingly, Steam just rewrote - but did NOT remove - its 'does your game have AI in it?' dev disclosure form. Valve's making it clearer
Steamでは、生成AIの利用について開示すべき情報がより明確化されたようだ。
