TMP Episode 8: Bo Ren, PM @Instagram
When you get a like on a selfie it's basically saying the internet validates your entire existence.
Mack: Â Welcome this afternoonâs mobile podcast. Â Letâs go.
Mack: Â Hello Bo, how are you?
Bo: Â I am doing well, how are you Mack?
Mack: Â I am better now that I am talking to you. Â I am quite delighted to hear from you as usual.
Bo: Â Sure. Â So, Iâm not â
Bo: Â -- before. So, let me know how is work?
Mack: Â Itâs really straight forward. Â I think there is a lot more shiny parts out in the world that cost a lot more money and time to make to what we do. Â I call really smart people. Â We spent 20 minutes on the phone. Â I think of those things. Â And then when weâre done, I send you a link and I say approved this to make sure that you are comfortable with me publishing it and then I do. And thatâs the whole show and then we chop off all the nasty bits that you donât want so that you can talk freely because you know that youâll give get final approval on the actual recording. And then we put it on to the internet and we tweet about it and we tell everybody we are super smart and, we drive, we drive brand awareness.
Bo: Â Also, itâs more like voice awareness.
Mack: Â So, so youâre the first person -- here is what I learned about my podcast is that, sometimes theyâre really amazing and sometimes theyâre kind lame and when theyâre lame is because I havenât done enough research, but with you weâve got an array of fascinating things to discuss.
Mack: Â So letâs start with those big fancy words that you combined and said you were really into social translucence.
Mack: Â First tell me about those -- actually before we do that, I always start this stuff. Â This is Pasterns [phonetic][00:01:52] mobile podcast, we talked about mobile, we talked about mobile, we talk about the future, sometimes we talk about the future of mobile and sometimes other things get into the conversation as well. Â On the phone today, weâve got my friend Bo. Â Bo tell us a little bit about you?
Bo: Â Hi guys. Â So my name is Bo. Â Itâs full for BO. Â Lot of people think itâs short for something. Â I am a Product Manager on [Indiscernible][00:02:25] actually now Instagram, since I recently switched team. Â Mack and I met via Twitter like most ones do. Â I want to write a lot about Product Management, gender, life philosophy, just whatever I feel like. Â Iâm super excited to just be having an awesome conversation with Mack, no pressure. Â And also Iâve been told that I have an accident recently, like I was on a date and this guy told me -- he actually emailed me your goals a lot and trail off a little bit anyhow. Â So, yeah I just want to let you know I have like a Pacific Northwest accent.
Mack: Â So, when I was 15, for the first time somebody said to me, where are you from? Â And I was like, oh, well, like Iâm from, you know, Canada same as you. Â And then â
Mack: Â -- English and then from the ages of 15-25, I was continuously having an accent by lots and lots people I met. Â Not everybody, some people would be like, I donât know what you are talking about and some people would be like you sound so Russian or so Texan or so South African, itâs unbelievable like, are you sure you know how to speak in English, your accent is so sick. Â It is the weird thing, but it just happened to me later in life. Â Maybe you are about to go through a similar adventure
Bo: Â Yeah, Iâm totally down to this like own it and just be like, yeah, I am also from organ, this is not like brand awareness, where we do trail off for a vows a bit, because we are in a rush.
Mack: Â No, and we get distracted by the pretty trees you know.
Bo: Â Yeah, awesome, cool.
Mack: Â Oh, social translucence first start here, tell me about this.
Bo: Â Yeah, this guy, million dollar word, itâs not a GIU [phonetic][00:04:19] word, I can assure you that. Â So I think, thinking a lot lately about online identities and how we translate online personas offline and whether or not you can stay authentic like online and offline. Â And so one of researcher tried and started finding these articles about social translucence, which really is like, gosh, I mean, it sound really like academic year now, but also like --
Mack: Â This is good, this is good.
Bo: Â itâs down. Â Itâs layman term. Â So, I [indiscernible][00:04:57] and not get bored. Â So like, social translucence is really like a way of kind of applying, since your technical construct on how like social media and like social network functions. Â And so itâs basically trying to breakdown you know all these like network throw on Facebook, Tweeter, LinkedIn into a couple of fundamental building blocks and like design principles. Â
And so we try to understand like how do people socialize within like a very constrained you know like well designed framework that obviously like tries to elicit a certain interaction. Â So you are basically breaking down these social networks in terms of like the content, the expected interaction and the relations so for example like the action of friending someone, you establish a relation and thatâs like a node in the social graph. Â And then there is this stunning component which is like what kind of systemic actions, what kind of like change the status of the user in the system or the state of the system. Â So thatâs sounding was too abstract, itâs just like a way of kind of applying for different components, just a way of applying a structure to all the social network weâre on.
Bo: Â So, yeah that was like my
Mack: Â Oh, I think, my phone disconnected for a second, can you still hear me?
Bo: Â Yeah, I can hear you.
Mack: Â Excellent. Â I would argue that one of the things that makes Twitter â Iâm going out on [Indiscernible][00:06:59] I donât know that Iâm â I donât know about it. Â I think one of the things that make Twitter and maybe Instagram more interesting than Facebook and especially Twitter thatâs what aligned about. Â As far as that social translucence goes, I think is the fact that Twitter has been truly involved by its users, some of the core mechanics of Twitter are things that were driven from within the community and not because somebody had a little town hall meetings like we want this, but because people just started retreating and giving attribution in that by using the RP [phonetic][00:07:35] of retweet.
And then people like Hover, who use the favorite as a reader speech, which is [Indiscernible][00:07:42] and drive some people up the wall, that you must favored a lot of thing, favorite in terms of what, right, like I said, we saw him anything was crazy. My [Indiscernible][00:07:50] things you favored it, but these are behaviors that like I donât think that Twitter meant for the favor to be a reader speech, but it has worked really well in that way for a lack of better like âhey, I see you babyâ kind of notion like you want to wink if somebody is saying, thanks for that great kiss of wink or you mentioned on Twitter or whatever.
So, that organic part to me is more interesting. Â But I canât think of those examples inside Facebook. Â I canât think of like Facebook seems to be better at dictating exactly what its users shall do with this products.
Bo: Â Yeah. Â So, I think what you are highlighting is like there is term there degree of possibility and organic content. Â Like the users can generate even within like a model like social translucence and every medium and every platform varies a little bit and I totally find that itâs like really surprising and you do have in like unexpected behavior to be fascinating and that to me, you know, is similar to, itâs technologist going build product, like when I find someone use the product in different way that is coming through, like I didnât intend them to. Â Itâs incredibly delightful and Iâm like wow that this is almost [Indiscernible][00:09:20] discoveries. Â
As usually it kind of scares me about social translucence is the fact that there are certain actions that we all are trying and to be really important one. Â You know, so the fact that like [indiscernible][00:09:37] you retweet a lot more than other people like thatâs perpetuating of rewards with some and like some reinforcement. Â And weâre all like actors within like the social reinforcement cycle. Â And what happened is like, if you are constantly you know being rewarded for all these different things, you can often end up generating content and like change your behavior just so you can get a little more built in [Indiscernible][00:10:14] for every little way youâve got, you know, and thatâs when you got like selfies as output and here is that horrible scenario.
Mack: Â Okay. Â Brilliant transition. Â So when I was in Poland, I went right by there and chose not go in. Â I was like I -- I intellectually and I think emotionally understand the implications of what happens here and I am going to pay my respects, but I actually donât need to see this up close. Â That was how I dealt with [Indiscernible][00:10:54]. Â And so, dear podcast listeners, a like that Bo sent me earlier today was about a challenging phenomenon among Israeli teams and maybe not just Israeli, but this was about Israeli teams and there selfies [Indiscernible][00:11:08], and you know little girls giving their duck tucker teenage lips in front of concentration camps, so guy like giving their kind of adult poses at this giant terrible place. Â Is there anything reasonable to say about that besides itâs just totally fucked up?
Bo: Â I think there is more to add to that. Â Iâm not condoling selfies as output, but I also think that we can easily become actors within their social [indiscernible][00:11:46] like becoming reinforced for a certain behavior. Â And once you get those like, you know, everyone will go through the head and want to just have more likes. Â And selfie if you think about it are the internet way of rewarding their existence. Â There is something so like to avoid a contact during selfie, it says nothing about the place theyâre in, the history, the climate, none of that, itâs just your face.
So when you get a like on a selfie, this would be same like the internet validate your entire interested just you. Â But I donât understand why like teens are now like incredibly re-enforcing. Â And often times I think right now, if we donât think about why weâre doing things or what weâre posting, is it really truly authentic? Â You end up trying to just generate content that elicit more like, more favorites, more [Indiscernible][00:12:58].
So essentially like youâre keen to think about it, theyâre caught in to become a reward for like what they are sharing is not aligned with the real world contacts they are in, but theyâre so like set and so you are getting more likes, getting more favorites from selfies, that does not thinking, you know, is this appropriate. Â So the selfie now is starting to become like the new you know a form of crossing that, hey, I was here and everyone smile and take photo. The selfy is kind of becoming like a new form of bad expression
Mack: Â So, do you think the selfies are like here to stay so to speak, I mean, you know, obviously people always take pictures of themselves if there is something interesting. Â But I remember when selfies first became a thing that people talked about, when that term became a term that was relatively well known â
Mack: Â And you know, it was definitely like, oh fuck, now weâre definitely screwed. The teenagers like, weâve got way of rock bottom, all theyâre doing is taking pictures of themselves and its over, humanity is dead and then we became more comfortable with it. Â Iâm a 34 year old guy, like I made -- I take pictures myself in front of things, I donât actually post them on the internet very often, but â but we moved into the selfies becoming normal now right, like there is a Golden Globes or Academy Awards selfies with Ellen and all those people. Â And I was kind of like the selfies jumping the sharp moment or something. Â But do you think say in four years â letâs put it this way. Â In four years, do you think there is going to be as many pictures of peopleâs face â of your own face on the internet or do you think this trend is going to wither a little bit?
Bo: Â I think like all things, youâre going to see â itâs kind of like a defining these way, like, there are going to be like high as well peaking or reaching from local, national, because you take that. Â And then, Iâll go down at that and then Iâll go out of that, but I really do think like selfies just space off of what my [Indiscernible][00:15:07] because I donât know, I thought they were cool. Â Like I post like [indiscernible][00:15:16] of my family this Christmas and it was really like pasturing that moment, really, well when we meet together with my parents. Â So I do think selfies are becoming, they are trend setting their side things of that. Â I think, itâs becoming like another expression of like happiness or I was here like, itâs just one in a while of mile in photos. Â And with finding spacing in cameras and all these parts were creating more delightful and more [indiscernible][00:15:52] where we can actually use a selfy. Â So I think it is weird to say, for better or worse.
Mack: Â So to me the evolution of the selfies public acceptance be something like the evolution of what would we say a bikinis public acceptance. Like Iâve seen pictures of the first woman who would ever wearing bikinis is getting arrested by police. Â And Iâve seen pictures of other police measuring length of womenâs bathing suits and all this like high percent post that we can imagine in the past. Â But step forward from now, like, thatâs a little bit more dramatic. Â
But moving forward from now, like, you know the first thing you do is, you see this cute little friends teenage girls wearing their short bathing suits and youâre like oh my goodness, thatâs crazy. Â And then you started seeing some American teenage girls wearing them, you are like, oh, thatâs kind of crazy. Â And when you see adults American young women wearing these and then you have there is like 40 year old mom who is sitting at home and you are like fucking, you know what Iâm going to do, Iâm going to put on a bikini and go to the beach. Â
And this take a couple of years, but this normalization of something that was at first an over exposure of ourselves and the selfies are like that right, like, we judged people initially for having such ego and to suggest that other people would want consume photo by themselves. Â But you like, that is the small bathing you think, like your ego, let you think that you should be allowed to or you look good wearing that in public? Â And now we are all running around in bikinis. Â I mean, Iâm damn you are wearing bikinis at beaches at this point, you know?
Bo: Â Yeah. Â Will real guess and I guess wearing them leg crossed for a while, I know, weâre recording this podcast. [indiscernible][00:17:40]
Mack: Â Letâs leave that there.
Bo: Â Okay. Â So I think what you are highlighting is why -- basically the selfy or bikini or whatever, it becomes a social phenomenon where itâs like, not just, it starts out as a [indiscernible][00:18:01] and just like fashion, you know, the people who are early adopters of a certain trend, they are the ones who are â you know, they are not cool in the beginning, like, the hashed up use, those before it came back in the 90s and they were like [Indiscernible][00:18:19] before the 90s, so then all these like, Brooklyn, musicians and [indiscernible][00:18:26] started wearing them and that was not as cool it was until [indiscernible][00:18:30] reach a critical math and like people just start adopting it because they think itâs cool or itâs like oh wait and like they get to their end and not wearing hash top use.
So they kind of highlighting and like there is kind of typical using where like you need a couple of people to be models and then like make -- ridiculous characters of themselves and in order for selfies or bikinis or whatever to be known even in like mainstream culture. Â And we started changing our opinions with that. Â You know, like I would judge people who would carry selfie stick, like, really guys who are like -- I found that incredibly more [indiscernible][00:19:15] but then I realized like hey theyâre actually been bring people together, you know, and in any holiday party, whoever has the selfie stick thatâs like, you know, you just have like cat net, to like bring strangers together and that creates a very special interaction. Â Itâs like, you know, I never thought I would be taking photo and so and so. Â And then, you know, from there you actually end up talking to that person. So yeah, I think you are highlighting is just like the adoption rate and trend is often started by people who have to make them so [Indiscernible][00:19:55] and to just start the trend or revolution weâre talking about, just talking revolution.
Mack: Â Okay! This is a beautiful transition to the last point that we were going to get to and this is the selfie stick. Â So let me first start by saying that I recognize that those of us who think about the future are usually going to be wrong when we talk about the future. Right. Â Like it just might be thought weâre usually wrong. Â But and I know that really amazing big things start out looking like toy and start out not seeming as consequential as they are. Â And big things can seem stupid to start with, but they change. Nonetheless, I honestly think that I think the selfie stick the stupidest fucking thing I have ever come across. Â And I havenât used one. Â So Iâm not allowed to really like kind of thatâs wrong in opinion, but I donât get it. Â So you talk about this party movement where what you all now can extend the camera two feet farther away that we are able to before and weâre bonding over new friends. Â And is this going to happen next Christmas, I feel like this is going out faster than the pogo stick, you know, or the pogo bowl either. Â This is a high speed fast. Â And stupidity that I think weâre going to look back on like ripped jeans and plaid tied around our waist in the 90s, I feel like this is that of 2015
Mack: Â Do you agree or disagree?
Bo: Â I disagree actually, I think the selfie stick is an extention of obviously the selfie phenomenon. Â People are feeling more comfortable expressing, you know, hey, Iâm here, Iâm happy, Iâm having great time and youâre kind of memorialize that moment with the people you are [Indiscernible][00:21:47]. Â And that to me is pretty profound like, how many times to me just like say or show that like within that moment in times, like these are all the people [indiscernible][00:22:00], this is like, you know, you are kind of creating that shared moment, which I think of you like a few selfie taken out of your arm, you would have been able to reach. And not a lot of people have a very long one.
I think that if you look at evolution of the selfie stick, you know, now weâre going into selfies which are quite selfies, and I think [indiscernible][00:22:27] in a reality show. Â I think it is where Iâm ridicules, but there are like truly utilitarian reasons for using it. Â If you are in a larger group truck and you want to be able to like capture everyone you know, you really need a selfie stick. Â And so, itâs becoming quite a reasonable today.
One of my color [indiscernible][00:22:51] the selfie stick connected to your phone, so there is like the wiring connected to like your phones, like outlet. Â And if you can just like kind of throw it, confirm with that sounds like, the actual poll itself, yeah. Â And it really works phenomenally. So it changed my mental view of selfie stick, because we were able to capture that truck from angles that were not possible. Â And I really think it does create like shared comradery at that moment.
And if you think about it like when you have this thing someone know that to take a photo or if someone crossed out, all those small things really do add up to like your experience at that moment. And I think the selfie stick was able to kind of broaden that shared experience even in like a very awkward like type of way. Â I think we should go out and actually buy a selfie stick and try it out with your family and then weâll talk. Itâs more like things, itâs like â I was so opposed to like certain types of food and then once I tried for the first time I was like, oh, uh, never thought of it that way. Â So maybe you havenât tried like discovered your powers with selfie stick, yet.
Mack: Â Iâm going to be in your city in two weeks and my assumption is that Iâm going to see these things everywhere because we live in San Francisco and so I will start flirting with the selfie stick in two weeks when Iâm in your wonderful city.
Bo: Â In two weeks we can do in our world selfie stick product, if you are down with that.
Mack: Â Okay. Â We will. Â You could be my first selfie stick selfie partner.
Mack: Â Or we have to find one?
Bo: Â Weâll be a selfie stick virgin.
Mack: Â Okay. Â Thank you for your time Bo. Â That was super fun. Â And Iâm going to share a link with you and clean this up and then weâll put it on the internet and hold out on purpose.
Mack: Â And I will see you.
Bo: Â And Iâm so glad â
Mack:  I will see you next week and we can do more of these, like what Iâm trying to do is find people who are good at talking which obviously includes you and I. And then, if our episode is worthwhile, weâll do another one in two months and be like, what else is new  Bo, you know, youâll be my regular guest.
Bo: Â Yeah, I like the kind of like this informal aspect of like, I donât feel weâre having any different end of the conversation that actually werenât been recorded, does that makes sense?
Bo: Â That sort of really awesome part, it was like, it would be kind of nervous, it was like, oh shit, like, I got to deal with like side on and things like that social translucence. Â And then, itâs kind of just like, rolled from one topic to another and you donât have to worry as much and itâs more about like whatâs your opinion at this point in time. That was like really cool. Â And itâs like and itâs like, yeah, I think this way. Â And I donât need to like factored up a 100% like research in fact.
Mack: Â No, no, no, we are going and learning and exploring together. Â And I think this format is interesting, I think this could go a long way, like, if I cleaned up the quality of audio and that kind of thing on this, I could probably get them liked on this. Â Do I have access to great people, I think you have most people to say really interesting thing and it speak to lot of stuff, if everybody involved.
Bo: Â Yeah. Â I think it was like really good we were able to kind of pin point like certain topics to talk about that way like you are not hot, completely off guard and have to like improvise on the spot. Â And let me like having like two or three topics and just like, you know, just like come, come for a level and opinion about it, weâll go really long way and then you know like you were able to kind of like, post, talk about selfies or binkies and shit and like develop our thought more together, so that was really cool.
Mack: Â Okay, weâre the best. Â I imagine Iâll see you next week some time.
Bo: Â Yeah, yeah, I maybe up, Iâll be around.
Mack: Â Weâre doing product debater January 29th, Iâll send you free tickets.
Bo: Â Yeah, I saw that. Â Yeah, Iâll be there.
Mack: Â Good. Â Okay, bye, Bo!
Bo: Â Okay. Â All right. Â Talk to you then. Â Bye.