#weaversnotes

The Hunters Nightmare, The Hunters Dream, and the Waking World, and the True Waking World

In my Au in particular the Hunters Dream and the Hunters Nightmare are connected in an endless loop of cycles (each available ‘ending’ to the storyline just results in a restart from the beginning, aka a ‘New Game +’), time does not flow normally, if at all, outside of the events.

‘The waking world’ that is referenced by the doll, and several other Hunters throughout the story is…unfortunatly not the actual Waking World. The reason is, like the Dream, it is linked to the Hunters Nightmare and acts as a transitioning space for Hunters to move between.

Likewise, time has ceased to exist with a normal flow inside of this loop cycle. Aging takes much longer than it would normally and is better counted in ‘completed cycles’ rather than years. Whatever age you die at in the cycle is likely the age you will be stuck at. The reason is that a cycle could be completed in a matter of weeks, by a competent Hunter, or it could take years - the cycle is endless, and time ceases to have true meaning. The more cycles a Hunter completes, the older they start to look - not because of the flow of time, but because of the strain on the mind and soul, as evidenced by Gerhman's appearance.

Something that supports this, is Lady Maria dies at around the Age of 30 years old, upon the completion of the Curse and formation of the Nightmare- she will forever be trapped in the nightmare at 30 years old, no matter how many cycles repeat. Gerhman, on the other hand- has spent years trapped in the dream, watching the cycles repeat endlessly and ‘freeing’ many hunters into the ‘waking world’. He has aged endlessly due to the strain of being the dreams Host and the mental anguish he has had to endure from it.

Gerhman likewise is not aware that ‘The Waking World’ he returns hunters to is a false reality that helps connect and sustain the Nightmare and Dream. He can not leave the dream and relies on Hunters to inform him on the events transpiring beyond it. I'll address more of this in a different HC.

The Dream (Where the cursed events and endless cycles are held, like an archive of ‘what is pre-ordained or has already happened’, but can be changed- or a sort of dimensional Limbo or a liminal space.) 

The Nightmare (Where the curse that set all the events into current motion transpires from, a literal purgatory for the perpetrators transgressions against Kos and all other beings that were caught in the formation of the Nightmare- suspended in time, unable to move forward or to rectify the past.) 

The ‘Waking World’ (The bridge connecting the two. Not the actual waking world, more of a transitional space that contains both The Nightmare and The Dream, keeping the looping cycle connected via anchor points (The Hunters Lamps) which are located near to, or at, the sites of the tragic events that have taken place throughout the storyline. 

The True Waking World (The actual reality that, so long as the Dream and Nightmare still exist - can not be accessed by anyone trapped inside the Hunters Dream without the collapse of the suspended Dimension. People from the outside world (New Hunters) can come in- but once in, they can not get back out.)

The Hunters Dream feeds and sustains the nightmare. This is primarily caused by Flora, as it tricks hunters into thinking that there are only a few solutions in order to ‘earn their freedom’ from the hunt. It is the same kind of trick that it used to ensnare Gerhman in the first place when the dream was first created. Flora's goal with this is thus:

1A. To eradicate all other Great Ones located within Yharnam and both the Hunters Dreams and Hunters Nightmare. Flora first made contact with Vicar Laurence, and although there are no cannon lore details to explain why- I theorize Flora set the events of the fishing hamlet into motion on purpose, and that Laurence used Gerhman as his bargaining chip to barter with Flora.

1B. Like all Great Ones, to have or find a satisfactory Surrogate Child- this is part of the reason why The Dream was created to begin with, Gerhman fulfills the role of Floras Child, giving Flora a home inside of the Hunters Dream- a plane of existence created solely To house Floras presence.  This is somewhat confirmed by the two ‘endings’ of the storyline, where either Flora Consumes the player, who then takes the place of Gerhman, or The player is ‘reborn’ as an infant great one, and then takes Floras place. Only the strongest of hunters can survive either ordeal, and there will always be someone stronger- making the cycle endless.

But what about the third ending? Well, that's also false. The ‘waking world’ you are returned to isn't the actual real world. Like both the Dream and the Nightmare, it is the ‘bridge of the loop’ that connects both inside of an endless cycle. Hunters that choose to ‘return’, are probably not what Flora is looking for in a child and are left to slowly fade into beasthood or madness (and thus, thrown into the nightmare as a Blood Drunk Hunter), or even to die as fodder for the endless hunt- leaving the hunters soul to endlessly repeat the cycles of it's death. 

Eileen the Crow is a beautiful example of this endless cycle. Ultimately, this is me trying to explain a game mechanic as an AU in a way that fits. But well, it does fit. Otherwise, once you complete her storyline once in the game, she technically should never again respawn as ‘Her Dream is Over’ regardless of how many playthroughs you go through. 

So, like many other Hunters in the ‘waking world’, Eileen is a trapped soul stuck within the loop of an endless cycle. Which brings me to the next point.

That is not to say you cannot die- you absolutely can. But doing so will trap the Hunters Soul inside the cycle- A spirit, or even an After Image will take the hunters place- forever doomed to repeat the path and actions taken up to the time of the Hunters Death. Like a story always being rewound and then being cut short. 

Again, Eileen is a great example- Her story ends at the upper cathedral ward after the death of Vicar Amelia and right before you fight the Cainhurst Crow. Every completed ‘Cycle’, she respawns back to the starting point of her story - where I suspect was where she emerged from The Dream for the last time. Like Durja, she is doomed to repeat her story and movements, forever trapped in the loop until it collapses.

But what about Hunters like Father Gascoigne? Well, I'm glad you asked. Hunters like Gascoigne usually end up being trapped in The Hunters Nightmare - only if they are ‘Blood Drunk’. Gascoigne may have been in the beginning or later stages of Blood Drunk, but his descent into BeastHood was so far along, I think that instead of becoming trapped in the Nightmare, he became trapped in the Waking World at the height of his bestial transformation. Regardless of where he ended up, he ultimately died because of his transformation, and his soul ended up stuck in the loop in that state. 

Once you descend into Madness or a Bestial Transformation, that's it. Game over. You become stuck in the loop. Which is, really, the entire purpose of the loop. The Scourge was a means to find compatible blood for a surrogate for The Great Ones. If you fall to a bestial transformation, well. Chances are, you are considered one of the excluded parties and unworthy to be more than fodder for their next potential child. Basically, your bloodline is weak, and they don't want it, Carl. The same can be said of blood drunkenness. 

The Great Ones as a whole are looking for potential children, or those strong enough to undergo the transformation. Flora itself is looking for someone strong enough to eradicate the rest, and potentially take it's place, or someone mentally worn out enough to become The Dreams next Host. That is the entire point of the loop- to weed out the unworthy and use them to succor the strong.

The Lamps and the gatekeeper messengers are the anchors that keep the loop connected to the True Waking World and help keep the loop functioning. The lamps are the veil that separates true reality from the alternative reality caused by the Hunters Dream and Nightmare Loop. 

As much as I love the little guys, and while I don't think they are outright sinister or malicious- the ones around the Lamps are definitely part of the anchor. These lamps and their ghoulish little guardians are what help separate the boundary between true reality and the Waking World. This way, new Hunters can enter into the cycle and keep it going. 

Blood Ministration takes place in the True Waking World - at this point, the blood is fully tainted - the hunter then sees the hallucinations and wakes in the ‘Waking World’ of the Hunters Dream. The introduction of the Tainted Old Blood allows the Old Ones to pull the new hunter across the divide and deposit them into the false reality. 

Old Ones are known to exist across multiple dimensions of reality- but they can be brought down to the mortal plane if the right conditions are met: Ebrietas, and Kos being particular exceptions, as Ebrietas was left behind when the Great Ones first ascended, and Kos washed ashore. So it stands to reason: yoinking humans across dimensional lines? Childs play. The Old Blood is the catalyst that allows the beginnings of transcendence.

The events that transpired as ‘Catalyst Events’ to create the loop, can never be altered or changed individually. But the loop that sustains them CAN be destroyed without continuing the cycle- it'll just cause the Loop to collapse. 

The events that caused the creation of both The Hunters Dream and The Hunters Nightmare, are unfortunately set in stone and cannot be altered or prevented. These events are frozen as ‘done’ in time, and all that remains in the loop is the tragic aftermath endlessly repeating. While you can Free The Orphan, unless you also dismantle the Hunters Dream, like everything else- the cycle will just renew itself upon each conclusion of the Hunters Dream. Endless torment on repeat? Yeah, I can understand the Orphan's rage there.

The Hunters Dream came about because of Gerhmans pact with Flora. Just like The Nightmare came about from Micolash making a pact with Mergo, and subsequently the Curse laid down by Kos. The events that took place leading up to the completions of Nightmares Pact and Kos's Curse, are unfortunately lost to time. The Hunters Dream Pact, came to completion either right after those catalyst events, or right before- sealing the pact in place and time and allowing for the creation of the loop. 

I theorize that both the Curse and The Nightmare came about at roughly the same time, and The Dream was created shortly thereafter since the Curse ultimately activated the dormant infection of the Old Blood and caused the full escalation of The Beast Scourge and they needed to have a way to combat it. Ultimately, this is also what caused the trifecta of an endless loop- another part of Kos's curse.

But the thing that gets me most of all: Flora planned all of this. While the canon lore does not outright support this theory, in my AU it is ironclad. 

Flora first approached Laurence, Laurence talked Gerhman into creating the Hunters Workshop. Shortly after, Laurence leaves for the Fishing Hamlet. The Nightmare is created, Kos lays its curse. Gehrman, distraught, fell prey to Flora's deception and created The Dream, thus completing the loop cycle. Flora can now suppress and eradicate all the other Great Ones.

The only thing about it is, I don't think Flora planned on creating an infinite loop. I don't think Flora was counting on Kos to lay the curse. And now they are all stuck in a timeless loop that, really only benefits Flora. An endless scourge of beasts, and an endless array of Hunters to fight them for the rest of eternity.

 In order for the Nightmare and Dream's loop to truly end:

Gehrman must truly wish for it to end, (unlikely, as Flora would not allow this), or be freed from his position of The Dreams Host (Which is going to be a fight, as there must always be a Dreams Host!) Via true death, and a refusal to take his place (Flora will not willingly allow this either, as it benefits from the Dream)

The solution? Clear the Nightmare and free Orphan. This releases the scourge curse. Then go and destroy every single anchor post (lamp), have One Hunter (1) consume the Umbilical, Give Gerhman a True Death, Kill Flora, and then immediately turn around, restrain The Doll, and kill the newborn infant great one. Peace of cake.

The entirety of The Hunters Dream should then collapse as there is no longer a Dream Host or a new Flora to sustain it - any dead or lingering souls should now be free from endless torment Plus, any Hunters who have managed to survive the nigh endless tragic cycles will finally be freed into The True Waking World. Ezpz. 

Obviously, it's a lot more complicated than that, but for simplicity's sake. And honestly? I kind of wish this was an option. It would make for one hell of an ending. Oh well, that's why AU exists. 

But this also relies on the fact that, All Hunters (players) exist on the same plane of existence at the same time. In my AU, they do. In the game? They do not. 

Congratulations! You have caused the collapse of the Hunters Dream! Prepare for immediate re-entry to The Waking World.

The ‘Waking World’ of the Dream and the True Waking World are two very different planes of existence.

The Hunters Dream Loop has been completing loop cycles for an extremely unknown amount of time- weeks, months, years, decades, eons. Nobody knows. That means Yharnam might not be Yharnam anymore. Hell, it might not even exist anymore, period. So, who knows what time or year you will get spit out in. Or even what place - if you even get spit out into your original dimension at all.

One thing is certain: The Blood Ministration was still continuing somewhere. New Hunters were able to enter the cycle- they just couldn't get back out, until now. With the collapse of the dream, and release of the Curse, maybe The Old Blood is gone. Or maybe the infection just disappeared. Or maybe remnants of the scourge still exist. Either way, Hunters. It's a new world now. 

On The Old Blood / Beast Scourge Origins

It is unknown for sure whether the misuse (or excessive use) of the Old Blood triggered the beast scourge- or if the events of the fishing hamlet cursed the blood and tainted it. Lore seems to point to the excessive use and excessive imbibing of the Old Blood as the catalyst for it becoming Tainted. I have three different theories as to what caused the Tainted Blood:

A: Aligning with lore- The fanatical and excessive use and fervor surrounding the Old Blood did cause the Beast Scourge. The reason being is it's excessive use: Laurence touted this miracle cure for any and everything- from the common cold to deadly disease, The Old Blood can cure all! However, I believe the blood had a viral component or mutagen- I mean, Eldritch God Blood, come'on. Definitely something nasty in there that isn't made for human consumption.

 I think the excessive use caused the virus/mutagen to build up in the human body before it causes a rapid evolution of the human dna and genome. Either because we as humans do not have the necessary anti-bodies against said virus/mutagen or- well, again. Eldritch god blood isn't compatible with regular ol’ humans. I also feel like if The Old Blood had been diluted, or less of it was used in treatment (instead of a huge blood transfusion, maybe a tiny vaccine shot?) It probably wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand so quickly. 

Another thing that supports this theory, is there are very few female beasts- Vicar Amelia being one, who excessively imbibed in the blood, and another female in the forbidden woods (if I recall.), which lore attributes to, women menstruating. Women replace the blood in their bodies through menstruation, which would lower the amount of the virus/mutagen in their bodies.

B: Fanatical devotion often twists and malforms that which is worshiped. This is still semi-aligned with the lores theory that excessive use caused the scourge- but focuses more on excessive devotion. We see it in several characters: Vicar Laurence, Vicar Amelia, Master Willem…All, in some way, show the same fanatical devotion to the point it literally consumes them (Turning them into beasts, or holding them hostage, as with Rom and Willem). 

I think, the Great Ones possibly used the surge of worship and devotion to influence the mind of the humans that consumed the old blood. As it would give them a direct conduit of influence over the body. (As in the later parts of the game…come to find out the Great Ones really just want to have babies, so it makes sense to me they would influence the humans to move toward that goal- even if it inflicts madness or great chaos and strife. I digress). 

Ultimately, as stated before, fanatical devotion can often twist and malform what humans construe as divinity, particularly when greed is added into the mix. Laurence being the prime example- he had great intentions when he brought the Old Blood to Yharnam. Did miraculous things with it, even. But somewhere along the line, someone got greedy or power-hungry. 

I haven't analyzed Laurence as a character so don't come for me when I say this: but part of me really does believe the beast scourge is entirely the fault of Master Willem and Vicar Laurence because they got into a ‘who's answer is the most correct’ pissing contest. In Laurence's case, I think he fell into hubris.

 I think he was so convinced that the Old Blood was such a sign of divinity that he became utterly enraptured and consumed by it, and he was driven by an all encompassing need to prove it- in part to try and change Master Willem's mind that, yes this was the path for humanity to take, just wait and see- and in part because, well. Quite frankly I believe he was driven to madness by the influence and whispering of the Old Ones because of how much Old Blood he imbibed, and consumed- he disregarded his Masters Warning and fell prey to eldritch machinations.

C: While still semi-lore complaint, it's a toss up, really. This theory is pretty much: the slaughter of the fishing hamlet and lust for power, and the resulting curse for their crimes is ultimately responsible for the scourge, and the Old Blood becoming tainted. One of the main things that works against this is that the scourge started to take place before the events of the Fishing Hamlet, so I still suspect either a virus/mutation caused by overuse of The Old Blood- but one that rapidly expanded, and was exacerbated by the events of the Fishing Hamlet which caused the blood to become ‘tainted’ or ‘cursed’ in retaliation of the Old Ones anger. This is kind of supported by the facts that, very obviously the Beast Scourge rapidly got out of hand and became overwhelming after those events, where as before it seemed to be mostly containable. 

I theorize that, if the events of the Fishing Hamlet had not occurred, the worst that probably would have happened is the Ashen Blood scourge, and maybe people mutating into beasts every now and then, instead of a whole ass outbreak of the magnitude it got to. All in all, I think both events together (The overuse of the Old Blood + Events at the Fishing Hamlet) are what ultimately triggered the tainting of The Old Blood and rise of the beast scourge.

GH- Blood Ministration, consumption of The Old Blood, or repeated exposure to it alters the DNA. There is also a vast distinction between the effects of the Old Blood, and the Tainted Old Blood.

While it's pretty self explanatory, this is a very firm headcannon about Bloodborne to me. It's supported by cannon in that it obviously alters something in the human body, thus causing the beast scourge and transformations into beasts. So it stands to reason it alters or mutates the dna in some form or fashion, and the more you consume or are exposed to it, the more your body becomes altered until you succumb to the transformation.

I personally theorize it acts more like a viral mutation, and there are ways to lower the viral load as it builds up in your system (The Bloodletter weapon was specifically made for this) and some cannon sources also support a similar theory (such as, why there are few to no female beast transformations).

Hunters are, obviously at the highest risk for changes, as they undergo blood ministration, and also regularly consume blood to regenerate health or strengthen weapons. This is even more apparent after The Healing Churches bloodstock becomes tainted or cursed- more and more hunters fall to the scourge, which is a contributing factor to the overall problem as the game progresses.

My AU-Lore takes this a bit further, in that any human who undergoes blood transfusion is no longer considered ‘Human’- but rather an ‘Augmented Human’- as we can see, both in world, and in lore, those who have become Hunters have somehow ‘transcended the bases of humanity’. Whether that manifests as increased reflexes, strength, abilities gained as you play through- the point stands- at some point you are no longer just a ‘simple human’.

While my AU does mostly coincide with cannon lore, I do take some liberties with mechanics, and established lore, as well as creative ways to spin the lore to fit my narrative.

Hunters and The Old Blood: As stated above, Hunters are no longer considered ‘human’ once they start imbibing or undergo Blood Ministration. The longer a Hunter Imbibes, or is exposed to the beast scourge blood, the more drastic the changes in the Hunters become. It also depends on the hunters psychological state, as well as their overall physical health on how far they descend into beasthood.

Hunters that undergo ritual cleansing transfusions or inscribe certain Runes into their person have a higher chance of resisting this decent into madness or falling prey to the changes of beasthood. Some changes will still occur despite this- even with ritual cleansing: The paling or darkening of the hair and nailbeds, fangs or canines growing out, changes in the shape or color of the eyes, changes in senses such as smell or taste. Changes in body odor, increased reflexes, reactions, speed, or strength.

While these things are good starting indicators that someone may be descending into beasthood and should be closely monitored- they are also naturally occurring changes caused by consuming The Old Blood, as in my HC, it alters your DNA and causes these changes over time. Some of these changes are also probably caused as a result of the blood ministration alone (Strength, reflexes, taste, sense of smell, speed), and are permanent changes to the overall DNA of the Hunter.

Those who were given the untainted Old Blood only seem to have descended into beasthood completely if they continued to imbibe (drinking bloodwine, multiple transfusions, completely forgoing cleansing rituals) or were mentally unstable and allowing the Old Ones to overcome them (Descending into madness, fanatic devotion, excess greed, broken minds, excessive trauma or traumatic experiences (which lets be honest, the whole game is just one big traumatic experience.))

Those who were later given the Tainted / Cursed Blood however, seem to descend into beasthood much faster than the Older Hunters. Tainted Blood Hunters also seem to display different characteristics and should always be monitored carefully, as cleansing rituals must be performed much more often.

Tainted Blood characteristics include: accelerated mental degradation, or bouts of aggression. Lengthening of the nails as well as darkening of the nailbeds, Lengthening of the canines and darkening of the scalarea. Extreme paling or darkening of the hair…..

Characteristics of those descending into beasthood that should be given caution and closely monitored: excessive agitation, aggression, or bouts of confusion. Small patches of hair growing out of the skin, excessive thirst or hunger, particularly for Blood Wines. Foggy memory, excessive talking to themselves or to people that aren't there. Misidentification of fellow hunters or places. Labored breathing, or intense insomnia. Restlessness….

Characteristics of those in advanced stages of beasthood descent: These individuals are dangerous, and should be approached at the Hunters own peril: Clumps of hair falling out or excessive hair growth over the body, maleformed or bulging/ mutated limbs or extremities. Complete delirium or confusion, talking completely to themselves, complete lack of awareness of surroundings, hyperfixation on one task. Extreme acts of aggression or violence. Strong or overpowering bestial or bloody odor. Complete discolored scalars, excessive drooling or salivation. Obsessive consumption of raw meat….

Cleansing Rituals: Bloodletting or a blood transfusion with a source of clean human blood (or blood that has not been exposed to The Old Blood) has proven effective at diluting the viral/mutated load that tends to build up over time in a hunters body. Likewise, imbibing in Ritual Wine (A human-blood based wine loaded with cleansing herbs, or wine that is infused with the blood of a Saint) while bloodletting also seems to delay the descent into beasthood.