#ts talk

oooh i love this. obviously everyone's answer will be different, but i'm going to take into account general/fan popularity and quality. so it might not be the least (or most!) listened to, but on account of deserving it. (for example, "all too well" might be famous as hell, but it deserves every bit of praise.) let's go. i'll do it most underrated vs. most overrated, like you said.

taylor swift -- underrated: stay beautiful (or tim mcgraw or mary's song) / overrated: picture to burn (though it's fun)

fearless -- underrated: the way i loved you / overrated: mr. perfectly fine (cheating because fearless is fabulous and underrated at this point)

speak now -- underrated: haunted / overrated: y'all will hate me but long live makes me emo so imma pass.

red: -- underrated: treacherous (and title track) / overrated: none. wanegbt? does anyone even rate her? lol.

1989 -- underrated: i wish you would (and this love) / overrated: i know places (among fans)

reputation -- underrated: dress / overrated: end game? getaway car? tiwwchnt?

lover -- underrated: paper rings / overrated: miss americana (though it hit at the opening of eras, not the most popular song but theres a reason for that)

folklore -- underrated: the 1 / overrated: the lakes

evermore -- underrated: tis the damn season (also happiness and kinda rwylm because it's perfect) / overrated: no body, no crime and willow and long story short (but they're fun!)

midnights -- underrated: labyrinth highkey (lowkey hits different) / overrated: mastermind, vigilante shit (not the live performances tho)

ttpd -- underrated: peter, the albatross, cososom / overrated: the alchemy, ttpd, but daddy i love him

Tbf she did market this album as having the lyricism of folklore (including evermore in this) so that’s the expectation I’m holding it to lol.

Not every song needs to be a moral exercise but if it’s going to be a bad girl song (like avril girlfriend or ariana break up with your girlfriend) it need to be a fun bop and/or straight up unapologetic imo not mournfully singing about how you shouldn’t feel bad about being a home wrecker especially when a lot of her discography is hitting back at cheaters and liars. Or at least add a verse that just addresses the implications of the topic she’s bringing up. Especially because another lyric in the album is about how we’ve all taken someone else’s man lol and I think it’s a regression compared to other songs in her discography.

I think getaway car is an example or where she does it well it’s very honest about the messiness of that situation and not self victimising or glazing over personal responsibility while still owning her choices and that’s still a fun bop while being nuanced.

oh yeah on the lyricism of showgirl, like, it's my least favorite album of hers. it's not terrible but it's not up to her standards overall. some clever lyrics here or there but nothing great. i do get that.

i mean, i think there's also the thing of... she also has cheated on people as well as been cheated on. and she writes about those experiences differently. as do most people! hell as do most people who do that in real life. it's always different when it's you/when it's happening to you. a lot of folklore-ttpd is dealing with having cheated, either emotionally or physically or both, as well as having that happen to you. of sort of understanding the mess that you can create too or that two or more can create? i agree that getaway car was a big first in a way, but it's also addressed in style (you're seeing other people and so am i; not dating but not not dating lol). new romantics dances with this too. folklore has again cardigan/illicit affairs (lmao)/betty/hoax (imo) then evermore vaguely addresses it (long story short, coney island in a way), midnights of course. i guess you could compare bejeweled to a watch yourself or pop girl anthem and high infidelity of course and question. ttpd starting off strong with fortnight! fresh out the slammer, guilty as sin, chloe et al, i look in people's windows, the bolter, etc. and some of those are very well written and nuanced and good and idk. i don't think every song has to see everything from every perspective.

so i don't see ruin the friendship as a regression but a continuation? i still wish it were better written + produced because it's like... almost a very good song but still is evocative and nostalgic and has its message which is what she wanted? and idk hell i went and reread the lyrics and first verse/chorus. he has gf and she doesn't wanna mess it up. second time she does but a shitty one and he doesn't wanna mess it up. it's literally all right person, wrong time, and then the time passes. like idk there have been about a thousand (way lowball) movies and shows made about this with teenagers and then one of them either gets married or dies and it's because... it happens. even tho it never went further than friendship. idk we may have to agree to disagree bc i feel like i'm getting defensive when i don't even think it's that good of a song but there isn't even any cheating involved lol

i also think most people are hypocrites including her and me and probably everyone in one way or another but yeah of course she is angrier at people cheating on her than she is about cheating on someone else (both of which have happened... several times at least in her life). as are most people and is that hypocritical? yes! but also typical lmao idk it's a feeling not a fact iohsdflk and holding someone to what they said or felt at 16 or 23 or 27 is idk. i agree i prefer nuance and more mature writing or better writing but idk? i feel like she's explored this a LOT over the years and with a lot more understanding. yeah when she wrote should've said no when she was 15/16 after just getting cheated on for the first time, she was pissed. and she's been the other woman or jumped from guy to guy as an escape hatch. as do a lot of people i fear lol and she's been surprisingly honest about this because it isn't necessarily flattering to her and some people judge it a lot but it's very common. or wondering what could happen if it were the right time and you and your friend weren't always seeing somebody else.

Is it worth it to turn down other life paths and if you can make peace with that in the present but also looking at your past. I thought ‘‘tis the damn season did that type of limerance well.

i get where you're coming from. i guess i sort of am like okay does that stay an interesting song or a moral exercise? not that something can't be both, but idk what we're expecting here. sometimes we do wrong by others or at least think about it and regret not acting when we could have. you belong with me/speak now (song)/girl at home/i knew you were trouble/style and so on and folklore and on is riddled with it: cardigan/exile/august/illicit affairs/better/etc and high infidelity/bejeweled/question and of course the #controversial guilty as sin with, "am i allowed to cry?" idk. i agree ruin the friendship isn't thattt deep but idk. it all exists in regret and wondering, like chloe or sam or sophia or marcus in that way, except with no way of Ever knowing.

i agree and that's why stories about teenagers are so prevalent in media. people always are like "why isn't this set in college!" because they have freedom and ostensibly less angst. you're essentially forced to be in school or your parents house until you're an adult. and if you're forced out of those situations, by yourself or being kicked out, you're often kinda fucked by the system that does not see you as a full person with full rights until you're 18. (speaking to the usa anyway.)

i think some of her songs are more introspective than others. she has moments of true clarity and honesty. it's not fully this or that idk that tweet of idk man i think it depends. she's also writing about her life. but yeah i often feel it doesn't go as deep as i'd like but i mean yeah! i'm not really going to her for that but i also usually know what i'm getting. if i want something different i'll listen to another artist sdfnl.

i think that's what a lot of people took away from "ruin the friendship" but not what i did and it's missing the point. without getting into the lore than i know you don't want lol just on the surface, idk, i think it's about... going for what you want, even if it's not the perfect moment. and that could be a boy, or a job, or a dream. it's somewhere between "fifteen" and "you're on your own kid." the production is not my cup of tea so i don't listen to it much, but otherwise, it's probably my favorite song on showgirl lyrically. the production makes it hard to listen to though.

I hope this doesn't come off as bitchy but I dont think its a coincidence that that albums which as said to be fictional are the most popular critically and mostly within the fandom, because for better or for worse the perception of the artist does influence the perception of their art, and she has capitalised on her own personal life beyond just writing about it and a lot of people just find her annoying and unlikable lmao which goes against you when you sell yourself as a relatable diaristic songwriter. Even most haters will say that they liked Everlore and maybe her early work before she as a celebrity became a conglomerate.

it does all become a snake eating its tail for sure and discussion of the self and relation to fame and stuff definitely has become more prevalent and harder to ignore in her work but i also don't see it as fully like, unrelatable? and i say this as someone who doesn't particularly like showgirl, but i actually think TLOAS is kind of TTPD's inverse. yeah, it's about another side of fame and herself but it's also in a lot of ways a lot more vague and basic and could be about anyone. like, as a fan i know too much and would rather not picture travis Myself even if she does. so like i get it on that count, trust. but i also feel like most artists that write about themselves... write about themselves? hayley's new album highly self-referential. like... all of it. (and it's good!) same with florence's new work, and sabrina often writes about the same things from her witty sassy perspective, and so on. i think it's pretty common the longer a career gets that there will be overlap. i do agree that the whole marketing and salesmanship and mcu (TSCU) of it all is A Lot and i grow to like it less despite knowing literally all of the lore myself by virtue of... being in the fandom most of my life and her career.

like for example, to your point, when i first heard the second verse of "is it over now?" i rolled my eyes a little at the "blue dress on a boat / red blood white snow" part because of her blue dress on a boat riding away from her date with harry. however. in 2025 it became my most listened to song because in spite of and because of those personal details in Taylor Swift's Public Private Life, i related to it so deeply lmao. sometimes you're better without the lore and like "opalite" sure you can look into she and her fiance's dating histories but. you don't have to. it's an upbeat happy little love song.

so like i do agree her world has gotten insular and some themes have gotten repetitive (but... we stay listening to tame impala and lana del rey... so) this isn't even meant to be defensive because i agree and disagree. i think there's good convos to be had about at what point marketing and Brand and being a person incorporated can eclipse Art and how good is art made by billionaires and idk. (this is too long so some is below a cut)

i actually meant to read that article the other day but didn't get the chance and forgot to save it so wow, thank you for sending this.

also... i agree and disagree. (more below the cut because this got so long and rambly and it is past my bedtime)