#thepassivist

- greetings, vif and bes, and thank you for taking the time out for this interview with me. first of all congratulations on the new release, “sentimental craving for beauty”. there's an inherent sense of desolation and sadness that is quite obvious in your music, among other nice factors. your songs are full of contrast like life itself: melancholy, pain, anger, joy, dark.... what was your state of mind like while composing your songs? is veiila your way to deal with these feelings? is this a kind of catharsis or has nothing to do with it? didn ́t your soul and heart hurt when you write them?

vif: thanks jose. it was a hard time for us. there was no way to cope with reality anymore and out of this entrapment the album appeared. i think we wanted to capture this pain in its raw state and try to transform it into something beautiful. bring it to a place where beauty has all the meaning in the world and you can look upon it and find something that will help you to go on with your life. definitely, the process of making this album helped us to cope with some of the depressions we had... anyway, music for us was never a place where we just played the instruments or exercised the vocal cords; it has always been something bigger for us. a place where we can be free and open to the extreme. essentially a place where we can find beauty.

bes: by the way, this is an interesting touch, how you list desolation and sadness as “nice” factors. from this statement alone i can say that we're on the same wavelength. i think all art comes as the artist's way of dealing with life (at least art as we see it), so yes, this album for sure was a catharsis in many ways. we never felt adjusted to reality, but in the last several years reality took new, completely absurd shapes and the maladjustment on our part became tenfold more acute. of course it is no secret that these songs are full of pain. i can only hope that this road of pain at least had some destination, that we managed to work out some of those feelings and turn them into something beautiful, as this was always our goal and our striving: to convert pain into beauty. whether we achieve it or not, it is not for us to judge, but for my part i can say that both the process and the result had sense. call it a therapy, a search for enlightenment or an existential journey...

- you had composed some songs that in the end i think you didn't record for this second album, is that right? how do you feel you evolved artistically with your recent songs? i also wanted to ask about another thing, so actually what were these changes that you introduced and how influenced these changes with the songs?

bes: we have quite a few songs that didn't make it into the album and a lot of those songs that are in the album were actually completely re-written and re-recorded during the process. we sort of had the idea of this album for a long time and at some point we even considered it ready, but life was throwing stones at us at the moment, making us jump through hoops, so to speak, and i think it gave us the opportunity to take a step back and detach ourselves from our work for a while. and when we had a more peaceful time, when we could sit back and reflect, it just turned out that we could no longer associate with what we heard in that version of the album. i look at it now, in the retrospective, and i think we grew artistically, emotionally and intellectually during this time (not a modest thing to say, but i hope it won't come out as blatant show off). what i mean is: we went through a phase of change and also a rectification. we rectified our aspirations, our artistic goals and we came back to square one, but in a purer shape. if 18 months ago we still felt some anxious urge to say something socially relevant, later on we came back to the idea of “art for art's sake”. that is: we realized that we just wanted to express our souls in the most basic way, by conveying the human feelings that we felt, not reflecting on social events or the state of the world. what i'm trying to say is this: when the outside world (which we always tried to ignore, to be honest) swept us away, we lost the ability to ignore it for a while, but i am proud to say that we didn't succumb to writing slogans or commenting on the news reports and in the end we pulled ourselves out, took a step aside and just wrote music. i see it as personal growth.

also on the technical side of things (and i think it has the same philosophical undertone of detachment from the “real” world) we reconsidered many things. with this album we focused more on the music (melodies and harmonies), rather than production and sound-design. this is also something that was therapeutic in effect, as we reverted to a more natural way of composing music, oldschool in some way, with less post-production and more actual musicianship. and i hope we'll explore this path further on, because it was very rewarding.

vif: i think we evolved drastically with this album. not in the least because we approached songs in a new and different way. but the most important thing, i think, was that we were able to dissolve in the process and get the best that we had inside of us at the moment. and by the best i mean the strongest feelings and emotions.

- does a sunny day inspire you to create music? are there more gray days than blue days? what motivates you to continue composing?

vif: any day is good for creating music. i don't think that there's ever a question of should i create or not. it's always out there on the table. another question: do i have the motivation to get out of bed or not? if i do, i know what to do, i don't need to wait for inspiration. it's always around in this or that shape.

bes: honestly a sunny day inspires mostly to take a hike. i guess i am more inclined to be inspired by clouds, fog and rain. but i don't think it's a determining factor. it's a hard question to ask, what really motivates us. i think this is just something that is as natural for us as breathing or sleeping. if we can't devote enough time to music for this or that reason – this is when we feel wrong.

- often i ask musicians about the music they listen to and many times they don’t listen to the genre they play. are you among them? could you tell me about the musical education of people involved in veiila and their background, by the way?

vif: i listen to different genres of music. if music moves me – it's all i need. so it isn't really that important what genre it is.

we are self made musicians. my creative path started with writing poetry and trying some melodies on the old piano that we had in the house. when we met with bes, this was, essentially, the moment of understanding what i wanted to be, and in what direction i wanted to move.

bes: i'm not entirely sure i know what our genre is, this is always a tricky thing to figure out, but i think it's safe to say that what we listen to finds reflection in what we write. we love many different artists in many different genres, from electronica, to jazz, to rock, to classical, and honestly genre is irrelevant. what's important is the feeling and whether the songs speak to you personally.

as for our background, it's actually funny, now when i think about it, that long time ago, back when we only met each other and started our first band, vif played the piano and i played guitar, and now the roles are reversed. but none of us formally studied piano, guitar, production or sound-engineering for that matter. we are strong believers and advocates for self-education.

- the title of “sentimental craving for beauty” is taken from galsworthy's forsyte saga. that trilogy is a magnificent portrait of english society in the last third of the 19th century. what’s so special about this literary work for you? are you guys influenced by poetry, painting or movies?

vif: it is a great trilogy written in a beautiful language. i remember showing some lines out of this book to bes and this line in particular stuck with us for years until the glorious moment came when we were ready to merge those beautiful feelings that these words recalled with our music and to create something new. i think we gravitate to anything beautiful. be it poetry, movies, paintings... i don't think i can live a day without something inspirational of this or that kind. you know, as sensitive souls we need a good bubble to survive in this unfriendly environment which is real life.

bes: honestly it's a line that means something personal for us. even though vif picked it up from this book, the title of the album is self-contained and i would steer away from connecting it to the forsyte saga in any conceptual way. not that there is anything wrong about galsworthy or his work of course. it's just that we don't want our music to be in any way politically or socially connected to anything. and once you start talking about society (and we've done that in some heated emotional moments) everything becomes acutely relevant, meaningful. the last thing we want is for someone to see our songs as some kind of a slice of the time, a snapshot of the current events. no, on the contrary, for us “sentimental craving for beauty” is the most pure aspiration. in this way we are always influenced by art, literature, music, but the most powerful impressions are those left by the works of art that are the least contextualized. and most personal too. i mean, one can talk about the portrait of the english society of a specific era in "forsyte saga". but one doesn't need to be aware, and concerned with it really, to appreciate the beautiful writing and to feel compassion to the basic human drama. the brilliance of the literary, musical or other artistic masterpieces is in their ability to speak directly to the soul in the language of feelings. great art doesn't have to be contemporary, doesn't need the manual to understand it. sure one can appreciate galsworthy deeper if you take the history into account, just like one can appreciate, say, orwell's “burmese days” deeper if one knows the devastating history burma or bulgakov's “the master and margarita”, when knowing the context of soviet oppression of the intellectuals, yet not knowing the context didn't prevent me from being completely taken by “the master and margarita” when i read it for the first time being a teenager or being practically smashed to the ground by “burmese days”, while when i started reading it, i'm not sure i even knew what burma was. and in this regard i just hope that the music that we write can speak to someone just as it is, without one needing to know the context. in this regard the sentimental craving for beauty (the feeling itself) is the driving force behind everything we do.

- it seems that most bands don't want to talk about certain topics. and in this way be politically correct. so it ́s much easier to write about fictitious worlds and empty talk. reality is always harsher than fiction, isn't it? does it bother you that there aren't more bands writing lyrics committed to our society?

vif: in my world art is above news. certainly some events can't be ignored and they get through your system anyway. they hurt you, ruin you, change your entire world – and as this happens your art changes too. but i wouldn't want my art to be a set of slogans – it's already too much shouting everywhere, too loud, from every corner. i think perceptive people need something more mysterious, some place where they can be free for a moment, where they can dive in and dissolve. just for one beautiful moment - this is the kind of art i appreciate. art which is free of logic, gliding on the surface of our dreams.

bes: it is a strange time we live in. from some point, as we mentioned, we try to avoid direct social references, but for the reasons personal and artistic, not for the sake of being politically correct. i think it is a very bad tendency that people need to self-censor. don't get me wrong, i don't see anything bad in phrasing yourself the way that you would avoid offending someone or hurting someone's feelings. tact and ethics are the most important factors, as i see it, in human communication, and i for my part, don't like to allow myself unfiltered emotional outbursts (and yes, it happens from time to time). but restricting oneself from expressing one's opinion is not a solution. unfortunately i think we live in a world dominated by lesser minds and the lesser minds are prone to shouting, blaming and throwing stones. either internet bullying or “canceling culture” are equal symptoms of intellectual decay. and when i see intelligent people falling into these traps, saying things that the lowest common denominator wants to hear, or silencing themselves in order not to hurt the feelings of “the stupid multitude” (it's actually the term that i picked up from the 18th century poetess mary alcock), that is when my heart really bleeds. to put it short, for me the only thing worth saying is the truth. the truth is absolute and universal. of course the truth isn't always known and in search of it we will make mistakes. but when we start avoiding or silencing truth – this is the beginning of the end.

- i think people don't think much now. everything is just a click away. every day that passes we have less to think about because everything is given to us. the science fiction of the 1960s where machines ruled over humans seems a little closer now, isn't it? are we condemned to be slaves or is there still a chance to get out of this?

bes: you're preaching to the choir, my friend! we spend hours talking, discussing and heatedly agreeing with each other on this subject on a daily basis. i don't even know if there is any way for us to get out of this sticky situation that we call progress. i mean, you can't stop it. you can't stop people from asking google every silly question, instead of using their own brains to answer it, because it is there, it's available and it's easy. everything we have now, that is everything the progress gave us, is designed to relieve us from thinking, deciding, choosing. if it goes this way we'll just turn into some creatures, no better than pigs raised for slaughter. in fact, open the news, see the war reports, brain-washing propaganda that gets less and less inventive, and it seems that the majority are already there. i hope i'm wrong, i really do hope it's just an anxious pessimist talking inside of me. but everything seems wrong. i read “the glass bead game” admiring this version of the future and i ask myself: what went wrong? weren't we supposed to develop the intellect? weren't we supposed to grow, to become smarter, wiser, more aware, more compassionate, more humane? why does it seem that we only become angrier, shallower, sillier, less inclined to analyze and quicker to judge? i can only blame progress. sometimes i think the renaissance ended with industrial revolution, with equalization of society. alas, now we have it: shut up, consume and serve the algorithm. it looks even worse than what vonnegut described in the “player piano”.

vif: i also don't have a very optimistic outlook on life in this regard. but i know for sure that there are people who resist drowning in this virtual madness. who share the same views on art and life, the same “slow” appreciation of the world, if you will. they are not many, but it makes them precious even more. everyone shouts that you have to get millions of likes here or millions of views there and if you don't then you're some kind of a loser. but i think that a few real like-minded human beings who can feel our music can make us much happier than millions of faceless accounts, by-passers who don't really care.

- i don’t want to get into your personal life, of course, but i know that you have and are still suffering from the effects of russia's war against ukraine. how’s your life nowadays? do you prefer the isolation, avoiding contact with others or you like to be surrounded by people?

vif: well, it depends on the mood and chance pretty much these days. the war doesn't stop. apparently, no one can do anything to stop it otherwise it would stop already. thus on my part there's not much belief in humanity... but we had a few concerts in december and it felt wonderful meeting like-minded people.

bes: to be honest, we always preferred isolation. nothing changed in this regard. like any proper introverts we can be carried away in conversation with one like-minded person (this interview is the proof of it), but when we are surrounded by the crowd of people, we inevitably start calculating the escape path. as for the effects of war – it is still extremely painful and mentally devastating. but i think the capacity for suffering is finite after all and i notice that we start drifting into neverland again. i mean we check the news less often, what happens with society in russia feels now more distant, less acute, less surprising. of course the whole thing is utterly horrible, but after almost two years of it you start realizing that you can't change anything, that people don't want to listen to the voices of reason, that hatred prevails and at this point it all looks like some alien life from another planet. or maybe it's we who are from another planet.

- what is your environment like?? how can this affect your music? do you think that you're based in other city or country your music would sound different? why/why not?

vif: we live high in the mountains now. it's so beautiful here that i can sit in front of the window and dive into this beauty and melt down in these mysterious fogs. some days it's so quiet that it doesn't leave any options but to dive into creativity. on the other hand with our impulsive natures some days it drives us nuts and we want to move, to play, to manifest all the energy that we've collected. i don't know what our music would be like if we were in a different location but sometimes you don't have that much of a choice and you just take what is there for you... and there's always some light to be found...

bes: yes, the mountains and forests here are beautiful and serene. and i do believe that it affects us in a good way. sometimes we walk in the mountains and looking around it seems fascinating and astonishing that nature can exist in such serenity and peacefulness for centuries. it puts our ridiculous human life into perspective. a day doesn't go by without some human calamity, drama, disaster, tragedy or something else. yet a tree in the forest can grow for hundreds of years in perfect harmony with other trees, the moss, the grass, the birds and insects. this is something worth thinking about.

- as soon as “sentimental craving for beauty” was released projekt records also made it available as free download on your homepage. why do you share it for free? aren't downloads killing music in some way? do you think that the real devotion for the music is about the content and the feeling, and not the format? it becomes harder and harder to sell music in physical format.

vif: well, the thing is that music is already practically free for everyone. it's not that important. it's just a matter of convenience for some people. and the physical format is more of the elitist or collector's format, even though i still fondly remember the times when it was so enjoyable to pick a cd at a store. to touch it, to enjoy the artwork, to give yourself space to hear the whole album.

bes: but we agreed to accept the world as it is and to move on. because, yes, everything is free anyway. you can listen to any album for free on spotify or youtube, but at least we can hope that if one downloaded the album from bandcamp they will listen to it in the best quality and the least disruptive way, without being lured into the matrix by “suggested content” and all that. as for the physical format being less popular, that's only logical, not many people have the equipment to play cds or vinyls. it's all in the cell phone now. i think we are going through a transitional phase and i hope that the real art appreciators and the real artists will stick with each other in real life, while the rest, for whom music is just some background ambiance, will surf through streams of generated “content” and never notice anything. good riddance if you ask me.

- i really like your "dive" ep but it sounded more optimistic, at least musically. am i wrong? for example the wonderful song "set me on fire" is a very danceable track, although the lyrics are quite uneasy. can you tell me about that particular song, please? thanks.

vif: well, you got that right. we were completely different people at the time. people who didn't touch yet the darkest fabrics of profound depressions. i feel quite disconnected from that ep. it was transitional in many ways and i would say juvenile. but i still like the song dive...

bes: huh, maybe it is more optimistic... i too really feel so disconnected from those songs that it's like some other band to me. “set me on fire”.... yes, we were into dance music. it's funny, it just feels like not us at all. frankly speaking we don't play any of those songs anymore. i can't even judge if they are good or bad.

- close your eyes and tell me... a)what animal do you imagine? d) a toy of your childhood. c) a film soundtrack which strikes a nerve. d) a place you have never been to before and would like to visit.

vif: a) eagle d) hippopotamus and a stamp album c) schindler's list d) any new place would do

bes: a) cat b) strangely, can't remember any particular toy c) max richter “on the nature of daylight” from arrival d) grand canyon

- i’ve read that the band's name is a reference to a demon (or a siren?) that lures men into its cave by singing and then devours them. i love it!!! throughout history, magic has played a primordial role, both to dominate and surprise as well as to deceive, trick and bend wills. in the field of personal relationships, especially in love, numerous characters played the role of witches, soothsayers and counselors, influencing interpersonal relationships, both with the use of aphrodisiacs and spells, poisons and black magic ceremonies, aimed at obtaining the love of disdainful lovers, innocent young people. do you think witches and love/hate spells still exist? if so, how do you think they work today?

vif: i like the idea of magic. some days are filled with it and it feels wonderful. and if witches are there they work as they should in mysterious obscure ways which you can only feel but not fully understand.

bes: that's interesting. i'm a bit of a rationalist, my brain tends to be mathematical. so it is unnatural for me to state anything that i can't provide an obvious evidence to. that being said, i want to believe, with all my heart, that magic exists. wouldn't this make this world a little bit more fun?

- almost all the covers of your releases are photos of vif. is there a specific reason for this? they are really beautiful.

bes: thank you very much. i believe that art and the artist's personality aren't separable and that a human connection only strengthens the connection with the art. this way when someone sees a person on the artwork, and then listens to this person's voice this makes one listen more attentively, more personally. maybe it's not like this for everyone, but it is so for me.

- vif, bes, what are you afraid of?

vif: some things. but i strongly believe that speaking about one's fears doesn't help anything and only makes fears bigger and uglier.

bes: i was brought up with the notion that fear is unworthy of a man and even if some think this idea is outdated today, i think that fear is something one must conquer in one's personal inner battle.

- ok. i would like to thank you for your willingness to answer my questions. wish you lots of health. do you have any last words for our readers? and for the human race?

vif: thank you, it was our pleasure. i'd wish for all peace and beauty.

bes: it would be nice if people took more time to reflect and think for themselves. the rest will fix itself!

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to an outsider everything looks differently. it is very easy to start categorizing and pigeonholing people in the primitive terms. victims, aggressors, lobbyists, opposition activists. but where is the place for artists? i talked to vif and bes, aka veiila, whose music i've known for quite a while, trying to find an answer to this question.

how did you know about the war and what did you feel when you first heard of it?

vif:

i didn't read or watch the news so the information about it came from a friend of mine who called and asked if everything was alright with me. i was in total disbelief at first. i thought it was some kind of a wicked joke, it couldn't be true. then i came home, opened the internet and there it was – the world was sinking into the dark ages. the whole world shook around me, i couldn't breath, i couldn't sleep, every day i was sinking lower and lower... and we decided to leave for the unknown. it wasn't possible to stay there any longer. it was against my nature.

bes:

to be fair i heard about it only on the next day. due to ongoing long-term depression i had to limit using the internet to a bare minimum. i am a bit of a hermit, i don't have many “instant” connections, friends who i chat to constantly (partly due to not even owning a smartphone at that time). naturally no one called me on the day one and i didn't read any news. i think i saw something that caught my attention when i went to check the weather. at first i didn't understand which war it was all about. but when i realized that it was for real it was a shock. i know, many people did anticipate something. but honestly, i've been downshifting so hard for the last two years that it was like a cold shower. and later on it only became worse. within a week you started noticing war slogans, all those z's on the cars and walls. i guess i realized that my pathetic attempts to overcome depression crashed into a million pieces and for a while i just gave up even trying.

and how did leaving saint-petersburg affect your life and your lifestyle?

vif:

drastically, dramatically, diversely.

we left and something was lost forever. the feeling of security, the hope that we can make this world better, faith in a bright and happy future. i was flailing on a thin thread. everything i believed in was disappearing. all the idealistic hopes that humanity would not return to the ugly dark side, that we were too smart for this. nay. everything repeats itself.

4 months after we left i was still reading news and breaking down, and then one day i understood that i couldn't go on like this, i was falling apart. i wish i could see the hope.

bes:

on the scale of ten i'd say it was eleven. we pretty much right away decided that it was time to leave the country. so many things have gone wrong that hoping for anything good wasn't optional anymore. you just can't stay and pretend that life goes on. but if life doesn't go on, then what? should you just roll over and die? i guess in the lowest moments it seems quite optional, but as with the horrible news came an unprecedented adrenaline rush, it probably turned on some self-preservation mechanism. i think it took us about a week to get ready, to figure out the destination and all the technicalities and all this time i was in some weird state of nervous but determinate automation. i was exhausted mentally, totally wrecked emotionally, but i was doing whatever i had to do, like a robot and even managed to present a straight face to the world. when you abandon everything, when you basically throw your whole life down the drain and leave into the unknown you can't really count on the moment of relaxation. it's not like “i'm gonna do this and that, and then i'll breathe out, kick back and chillax”. sadly, you just have to keep going, and when you already don't have any juice left, you have to keep going. of course i understand that it's not fair to talk about hardships when other people have to hide from bombings and run from tanks. but it was still very stressful for a damn long time. i guess it's not as drastic if you have a place to go, if you have a stash of cash in your pocket, if everything is comfortable. but when you are an underground musician, which is by definition not about stability, you are really on your own. that means overcoming all sorts of obstacles, solving countless puzzles, parting with most of your possessions that were “your life” just because there's no more room in the suitcase, going through weird hotel rooms, living like a nomad... it's not easy and for a long time you can't breathe out. it taxes your emotional capacity. it takes a toll on your physical health too. so yeah, i felt quite funky for quite a while.

did your perception of this situation change over time and if so how?

vif:

now i feel numb. we've met in armenia lots of support and good people who were so nice to us, like a warm blanket, and in a way it helps me not to collapse completely. but it can't change the situation. i can see that for everyone outside of the conflict it becomes something normal. and sometimes i wish i could forget too, but it just doesn't seem possible.

bes:

did i get used to war? no. did i learn to live with these feelings? yes and no. after a while you realize that you can't just sit 24/7 with your face glued to a screen, doom scrolling and drowning in despair. the body rebels. cells need air, muscles need activity, brain needs other thoughts. we ain't robots after all. not yet at least. of course over time you learn to live again, you try to get your new life in order, you walk, you read books and then you can function again. but life is not the same and i don't think it'll ever be. i thought i was depressed before. it all looks ridiculous now in comparison. something died inside. that little that i could count as hope, for me, for humanity, for the planet, just isn't there anymore. the future never looked promising and now i can't even think of it.

but why did you leave? why didn't you prefer to stay and fight the regime?

vif:

fight the regime – it sounds so romantic and brave. but i don't see anything i can do there now. there's no freedom left for anything. and the sad part is that most people are fine with that. at least it feels this way. you can't stay there making music and being against the war at the same time. there's no place left for people like us.

bes:

i don't believe in violence, i think violence can produce only more violence. throwing molotov cocktails at the state representatives is not a solution. if i was a teenager i think i would see something in it. not anymore. i don't think there are good politicians either. humans are so easily corrupted, and being a politician involves fighting for power. it's catch 22 – people who could be good in politics, that is people with strong moral compass, with higher ethical values, with respect to others, with integrity, with knowledge and analytical powers to process this knowledge... these people just won't get any success in politics. a politician needs animalistic passion, charisma, thirst for power, unshakable belief in their own views, authority. with this set of features it's impossible to be humane at least. one must doubt everything one says and thinks if one wants to develop. a politician must never doubt. a politician must make others believe blindly. no wonder they are all scumbags. i think society should develop first before we can expect some changes. and the society is pretty much medieval. after all they chose their government and it seems like they are for the most part enjoying it, or at least accepting it silently. so why the long faces, what did you expect? anyway, i sound like a depressed pessimist, which i think i am, so what kind of a freedom fighter you want me to be? abandon ship or abandon hope, that's all i can say.

before you said that you weren't interested in politics, didn't read news and “lived in a bubble”? has it changed and why?

vif:

it did change, the bubble isn't there anymore. you can't ignore the war. it's inhuman. i am still not interested in politics though. the more i see the more disgusted i become. i don't really know what i should do.

but i wish a bubble would come back one day with all its happiness and calm.

bes:

those blissful days. unfortunately i can't not read the news anymore, though heaven knows i wish i could. i don't even know how to explain. i can't just pretend that nothing's happening, because i tried and i failed. maybe one day i'll grow a new emotional exoskeleton and i'll be able to live and ignore the horrors of the world like an innocent child, but i don't think it'll happen soon.

do you feel any discomfort being russian when your country is destroying another country?

vif:

no, i think i don't. i didn't do anything bad, i didn't support monsters. and also we didn't meet any hostility from anybody. we are just trying to be decent.

bes:

i feel a lot of discomforts about it, but none of them are related to nationality. i don't think nationality determines you. i always considered myself a cosmopolitan and now i have only more reasons to do so. i always wanted only good for the planet and my heart bled when i saw how disgracefully we ruin it. i mean us, the human race. our pathetic petty differences are negligible from the point of view of mother nature. all we do is transform what good it gives into waste and yet we have the audacity to proclaim that man is the king of nature. this is not right. i wish we could stop thinking of new ways to disconnect, get our heads out our rectums and think together what we can do to stop destroying this beautiful planet. if instead of dropping bombs, making imbecile laws, canceling celebrities in hopes to become celebrities, we searched for new ways how to educate ourselves and become more conscious and aware, more humane and less impulsive... oh, i sound like a miss universe nominee. truth be told, i think we are way beyond the no return point, so whatever cockamamie rubbish i say here – it is nonsense. hindsight 20/20, boo hoo!

how about the feeling of collective guilt or responsibility? do you feel (partly) responsible for what is happening (regime, war etc)?

vif:

no, i don't feel this way. i believe in individuality, collective has nothing to do with it.

bes:

no i don't. i didn't choose the regime or the government. i hoped that art could lead people to development, but i was mistaken. for what it's worth i was always expressing my unorthodox views to everyone in my circles. that probably explains why i don't have many friends. i preached and preached to everyone around that social media makes you dumb, that smartphones are evil, that if we don't stop mindlessly plunging into the abyss of progress we will end up in idiocracy. that we will lose critical and analytical abilities. that we will become a herd of blithering morons and it will lead to disastrous consequences. what can i say? i look around with grim satisfaction of poisonous “i told you so” but who gives a shit? here we are, idiocracy is no longer just a movie, it's a part of life. no wonder the world is falling apart.

so you don't think art can change the world anymore? or is it even appropriate to make art in times like this?

vif:

i always thought that art could. i still think that it has healing powers. but the thing is that not everyone is perceptive to art. those who are, they can change, can evolve. i'm pretty sure of it. and if they are decent enough the world could be a better place. but now everything points out that art isn't that powerful. but we, artists, still gotta do what we gotta do. it's not a choice, it's not a simple job for us, it's the air we breathe, the skin we wear...

bes:

i used to think so, now i don't know what i think. is it appropriate? well, it can't hurt anyone. “make art, not war”, isn't it self-explanatory? if our song can help someone, then it wasn't for nothing. if it helps no one... what can you do, at least songs don't kill.

that's true. what in your opinion should artists who stayed in russia do now?

vif:

try not to sink into depression. i don't really know, i'm not in a position to give advice.

bes:

whatever the hell they deem right. who am i to judge? it's everyone's personal business what to do and where to be. if people thought more of themselves rather than deciding for someone else, maybe there would be less conflicts and wars in the world.

some artists recorded anti war songs? do you have or plan to record an anti war song?

vif:

if it doesn't come naturally it's not right for me, not real art to me. i haven't written any songs during these six months. i don't feel inspired nowadays, i'm in a frozen state in a way.

everything that is happening right now is getting through us. i don't know what the future reflection will be, or if it will ever be. but if it will i'm pretty sure something will be seen on the canvas of our work.

bes:

our songs are sincere, this is all i can say. what other people hear in them is mystery to me and none of my business really. i hope we will never succumb to writing slogans instead of poetry though. leave it to politicians.

in your opinion should art be social (reflect the current state of the world/country) or should it be absolutely abstract and disconnected from reality?

vif:

there are good social artists who have absolute integrity and passion. but for me it's all abstracts, feelings, emotions. i wouldn't be a good social artist even if i wanted to. it's not me, there's always subtle matter in front of my dreamy eyes.

bes:

as mentioned above, for us art should be sincere. that's it. that's our own merit. for other artists: this is their personal choice and i am in no position to suggest to them what they should do. i myself care only for the art that touches me on the level of feelings. if i feel something – then it works. if i don't... well, somebody else might.

how do you live now? how does it feel to be in a new country?

vif:

it's very much unusual. i can't get used to it. there's always this feeling of unease. but i like many things around here – the mountains, the nature, the food, the little things that are so different, everything moves differently and the movement is good, it distracts in a good way. people we've met. it's all a delight, if only i didn't feel so lost.

bes:

at first it was constant stress. but we are humans, and humans are adaptable. now the stress is not constant. i never felt at home back home (no pun intended), so at the very least it feels more natural not to feel at home now. feelings are mysterious stuff. go figure.

and, vif, do you feel at home?

vif:

i wish i did. it's a beautiful country. but the meaning of home, the understanding of it is broken. home is such a stable and beautiful word. it feels like we were reaching for it all our life only to find out in the end that it can be taken or lost. time has to pass, hope has to be born. and then maybe i will be able to answer questions about home.

do you think you lost or will lose your russian listeners?

vif:

i don't know, probably someone will be lost and someone will be found. i don't want to think about it. it's not like i am in control of this. i choose my own way, and if it doesn't fit someone's system of living it's alright. i embrace diversity.

bes:

i guess we did lose some of them and will probably lose more over time. but we always were deep underground, so it's not a major loss. plus we don't really have any back communication with our fans, we don't allow commenting, we don't read messages on social pages, and we don't really sit and check numbers constantly, so who cares. if people like our music they will listen to it. if they don't want to listen to it for this or that reason, well it's up to them really.

your songs aren't too cheerful and often speak of depression, loss, despair. do you think it can help your listeners or can only make them feel worse?

vif:

when we write our songs, we help first of all to ourselves – to breathe, to live. i don't know if it will resonate with anyone or not. will it help anyone or not. all i know is that if i stop i die. but also i think that we have a good energy in our songs. i can feel this energy, it's not that painful really.

bes:

when i'm down in the dumps (which is most of the time) i prefer to listen to other doomy depressive wretches. so why not?

what is your responsibility as an artist before your listeners (if any)?

vif:

can we really speak about any responsibility? we are so disconnected really. all these likes on social media don't make me happy. it's all so cold, disengaged while everyone tries to convince you that it's a real deal. it's not true, it's distant. so i have a responsibility before me. i have to create art because this is who i am. it's selfish, but this is the only way it works.

bes:

oh come on, i didn't become a musician because i sought for responsibility. au contraire mon frère, i became a musician because rock stars are allowed to not give a crap. it is highly recommended actually.

good point. let's talk about life a bit more. your life, it seems, has been really disquieting. what is your safe place?

vif:

it feels like now is exactly the time. and there are days now with no safe place whatsoever. it feels like you are falling apart, and there's nothing to hold on to, and everything is so cold, freezingly cold. and usually on these days i want only for them to pass with the hope that tomorrow i'll feel a little bit better. at times some people can come your way and wrap you in a metaphorical cozy blanket. those precious moments have the power to lead your sorrows away for a while.

bes:

not sure i have a safe place anymore. not even sure i had it ever. at times i feel like there is nothing but thin air between me and the cold universal horror. you just learn to live with that and try to take your mind off sometimes.

does art help you to cope with the current situation? and what exactly?

vif:

as an introverted person i'm pretty much inclined to hide myself in books, music and movies. it's always been a part of my life.

but it doesn't feel like i cope very well. i'm not sure that anything helps now.

bes:

sad albums, desperate books, and absurd comedies.

why don't you do tik tok?

vif:

i don't dig it. for me it's the way to kill the ability to think, to connect the dots. the overwhelming deluge. you can be easily lost there and it's just not for me.

bes:

for the same reason i don't want to pig out on fat deep-fried junk food: i don't want to suffer from brain obesity.

why did you close all the comment sections on your social media?

vif:

it doesn't feel right. i don't want anyone to affect my art in a wrong way. everyone wants to give you advice, criticize you or praise you – these are such big distractions. absolutely unnecessary. they bother, they disturb, they disorient – and there is no happiness for anyone. this way it's easier for us. we can focus on the important things. and without distraction decide what is our next step, what is it that we really want to do now.

bes:

because social media is evil. comments are evil. likes are evil. i guess the good question would be “why the hell didn't you close all the social media pages then?” because sadly people don't visit websites anymore. in this regard we treat social pages (those two that we have) as some sort of a website extension. you still need some channel through which you can deliver art, and this seems like the lesser of two evils. at least for now. maybe one day we'll close all pages completely.

the thing about art is that it shouldn't depend on anybody's opinion. if you let “likes” and “comments” into your life it will inevitably become part of the creative process. you'll never even notice it, but you'll start to adjust what you do or what you publish based on how many likes or good comments you got before. as a result, if you're a pretty girl you'll just slide into the abyss of posting selfies and corny motivational quotes, because everybody will more willingly "like" this kind of content. of course i made it intentionally simple. but i think you get the gist. also likes and comments devalue art, it puts an average user on the network on the level with the artist. and that in effect kills any mystery. art is supposed to be above it all.

also, did i mention that it's evil?

what’s your favorite part about performing live music?

vif:

i like that it moves, it's never the same way twice, it's always unique. i like to go deep into songs, and if everything is alright on stage, i can relive, refeel my songs. as if you're making them alive and giving them power. the waves of pleasures and gentle sorrows. everything else moves to the background. there's only stage and music. the simplicity of it makes it so gorgeous. the momentum. it exists only for an instant. it's like all your life in a nutshell.

bes:

it's funny, but i don't even understand what i enjoy about it. if you start to dissect the process it's not that fun. so many technical things that can screw everything up in a moment, plus on stage you usually don't listen to the good sound, but rather some weird overly loud mix that is supposed to keep you on the beat. it's often hot and stuffy, the lights are blinding, the smoke stinks etc etc. and yet it's one hell of a beautiful experience. totally mystical, completely inexplicable.

when the song is finished, it’s like letting the child into the world. how do you feel at this moment?

vif:

it's never easy. when it's about to get out i feel excited but when it's out i have a very strong feeling of loss. it can last for about a week. i feel very bad on those days. i can't explain it. it's there, it doesn't belong to you anymore in a way. now you have to go further and never look back. i am not sure i even can enjoy them properly long after release, except when performing them live. looks like i'm a broken toy.

bes:

i suffer. for a while. it's a weird mix of various feelings that aren't too pleasant. but then it passes and i can once again enjoy the song. unless the song was not too good, in which case i usually have an epiphany after a while and realize that it was a mistake. in this case i keep suffering until something else gives me enough distraction.

what is it that inspires you to create your music?

vif:

i'm searching for beauty. it would be not very modest to say that i do create beauty – but i'm searching for it. the reality hurts and hurts, and there's no salvation but to hide myself in a world that is different. the place where everything is simple and understandable. this way i try to heal my soul, basically survive. because when the mind can't answer all the painful questions there comes the soul. and music is a free space where you can easily do it or do it with ease. so when you let go, you fly, and your tormented feelings take different shapes. you can look at them from the side and then you can move on.

bes:

all and nothing. it's just my natural reaction to the world, i guess. when i'm tired of working on a song, i want to just play piano for shits and giggles, for recreation. i don't really know anything else that i can do with the same affinity as playing or writing music. some people say they want to send a message to the world, they have a mission, they do it for this or that reason, or this or that inspires them. i never felt like this. i can see the most beautiful scenery, say an ocean shore at sunset, but that wouldn't inspire me for music, if you know what i mean. it would inspire me for a lot of other things, but i won't think about writing a song about it. yet i would probably look at that beautiful view and make silly noises with my mouth, because inside of that skull of mine i'd be actually sitting in the studio and working on the song or something. it would be a completely separate process, not connected to the view or the inspiration. i'm not sure my brain even has a capacity to think of “something else” for more than a minute. i even feel ashamed at times. there is something serious happening that should concern me personally, and yet my brain is thinking of drum machines or pianos. what's the deal with that?

which musical artist has affected you the most and why?

vif:

from the past to the present: nirvana – with their great energy and magnetic power, queen – the beauty and freedom, nina simone – feelings, feelings, feelings. muse – incredible talent and passion, radiohead – honest beauty. from the present and into the future – early james blake – especially overgrown – he speaks to me personally, very intimate deep talk. lucy rose – gentle soul of a decent person. patrick watson - beautiful emotions. depeche mode – they rock. daughter – broody moody intimacy that takes you away into the deep. the xx – the style, the easiness, the serious kind of fun. asaf avidan – a wild energy, a wild chant. tamino – his music moves me in the right direction and i'm grateful that he creates this beauty. the list might be endless if i go on.

bes:

hmm. it's not easy to pick one. at different moments in my life i was influenced by different artists. i don't have an “all-time-favorite” music artist. i guess i could name some albums that did affect me in some way or the other over time. besides the predictable bjork “homogenic”, radiohead “ok computer”, portishead “dummy” and depeche mode “exciter” i think i should include daughter “not to disappear” and burial “untrue” as these really were the sound tracks of my first (and therefore weirdly nostalgic) deep depressions. as for the artists. for crying out loud, i am a musician, i can't talk about music in this way, i want to go nerdy, but it won't do. let's talk writers. i am no writer, so writers are my rock stars and i can treat them with the same childish fascination as once i could fancy rock stars. in this case kurt vonnegut is my hero and he is mainly responsible for my upbringing. if my parents think i'm a nutcase they should send a “thank you” note to vonnegut's family. i don't know how to explain it. it started with one book, then another, then i read all of them, then there were letters, speeches, essays, and there you go, you think you know the guy, it's like he is my good friend who shares the same pessimistic views, the same moody sense of humor and with whom i can be at ease knowing that my radical views won't sound that radical to him. like an imaginary friend.

and what do you think of the music today, are you into it?

vif:

well. i can say that there is still some good music. good music for me is music with real feelings. if it moves me, touches me then it's good. but nowadays a lot of it doesn't have it. it can be done with stock loops, with the robots and in the end there's nothing human left. but there are true artists who can take the best and make incredible brand new combinations. it's very refreshing. but it's hard to tell what's gonna be tomorrow. and i noticed that more and more often i look back to the past and find gems that hit me right through my heart. as for music that we do, we rely on our instincts, when it's right we just know it.

bes:

today-shmoday. i don't want to sound like a grumpy old fart, but i tend to nonetheless. i think it sucks in 90% (i'm really being generous here). what i mean is that it pains me to see that kids these days don't wanna learn how to play (not all of them of course, but that's a trend). loops, all those unholy apps and infernal devices that let you “never play a wrong note”, all the hi-tech little algorithmic oompa-loompas that are always there to relieve you from your tedious human chores (you know, like learning music theory, or just freaking practicing) – all these things kill us. not only in music, overall. we, pathetic little animals, who were once so eager to prove that they were capable of great deeds, these days we outsource everything to the algorithms. human brain is in fact an extremely lazy organ. you give it an option not to learn something and it gladly takes it. you let it skip choosing and the next thing you know you can't choose anything without suggestion. people don't read, don't write, they don't even type for themselves, they don't express themselves anymore, everything is pre-suggested, pre-selected. you know how messengers suggest (and quite convincingly too) full phrases. you can probably have a conversation the whole bloody day just choosing pre-suggested replies on a pair of smartphones: “hey, how u doing” “i'm fine, thanks, you?” “i great too, wanna chat for a while?” “sure, why not? what do you have in mind?” “i don't know, what do you think?” “how do you like the weather?” “it's really great”.... and then what? i'll tell you what. then we'll turn into mouth-breathing idiots who aren't able to put two and two together without asking google. add here fomo and the unforgiving ratrace in which today's world is constantly engaged. naturally art is supposed to suffer. why bother learning the instrument if i can just put some loops from a pack and get a sick beat in 10 minutes. music theory? who needs this crap, there are tons of apps and plugins that will take care of it for all the poor wretches out there, after all learning is soo hard and i need to post a track a day, otherwise i won't get my like and life is terrible without a like. i can't talk about it without getting pumped, because i saw it in action so many times and it makes my heart bleed and my soul weep for the days of the glorious past that weren't even too long ago. it just happened right before our very eyes and we were watching and letting it happen. we're fucked. broken beyond repair.

do you make playlists or listen to albums straight through?

vif:

i like to listen to albums. great albums have great concepts, the invisible thread that keeps all songs together. it gives such incredible pleasure. it fills you with special energy and prolongs it. it's awfully great. that's why i don't really like streaming services. the robots decide for you and start feeding you with similar songs and artists. and it feeds you and feeds you until you're sick through your ears and don't even know who's the artist you just listened to. depersonalization and devaluation. it makes me very sad so i don't do streaming.

playlists are good for videos though. this is something i like to do. i prepare my own playlists in advance and then... the dark evening, curtains down – let's dive into visual art.

bes:

albums. i never even liked radio when i was a kid, and playlists just don't do it for me. i prefer to dig into the album and often i would listen to it over and over until i know every sound and every word. i think an album is a work of art on its own, because unlike one song, a good album gives you a story, a journey, an experience of getting to know the artist. it's magic really. and it makes me sad that a lot of artists don't think in albums these days. often when they even do albums they sound more like playlists, due to all the “feats” and “collabs”. i get it, it's a trend, but it's just not my cup of tea.

do you have a song that always puts you in a good mood?

vif:

the pointer sisters - i'm so excited - is one of them

bes:

no. i don't think i have anything that always does something to my mood. it depends on the mood really.

what are the few of your favorite things?

vif:

black dresses, fast walking, smell of oranges and coffee while looking out the window in some little cozy coffee shop, the wind that caresses the face and makes a mess out of my hair.

bes:

furry animals of all kinds.

what are your dreams?

vif:

i dream about peaceful moments, looking at blue waves and listening to their monotonous relaxing hum.

bes:

they are mine and mine alone. no one needs to know.

what makes you angry?

vif:

many things. i am that kind of a person who is never satisfied for a long time with anything.

bes:

questions about modern music, i guess. or thinking of the inevitable descent of the human race into idiocracy.

what do you think of success?

vif:

it's elusive for me. i remember the times when it was very important. it was before we found ourselves as artists. we were hungry for success, we made lots of foolish mistakes. and then with understanding of what i really wanted came a different perception of success. i wanted integrity in art, i wanted to do things my own way. and somehow it usually is the hardest way. but i see that it would be impossible to do it differently. if we did i don't think we would still be here. the things that make you happy are very important – and they are deeply connected with the art we're doing. so no matter how hard it is – it's always art first, and then anything can happen.

bes:

i think it is quite good to be successful. also i think it's good to be rich and successful. i also think that it is real good to be rich, happy and successful. more to that, i think it's just wonderful to be young, smart, healthy, rich and successful. don't you?

can't argue with that. what’s the last book you read that took your breath away?

vif:

i've recently finished reading the collection of f. scott fitzgerald – he always takes me to the land of dreams where everything breathes beauty and it's so far away from my reality that i can dive there and be happy with no strings attached. he isn't the most cheerful fellow but the way he expresses himself – it's precious.

bes:

the last book of this magnitude was, if i'm not mistaken, orwell's “burmese days”. that really shook me.

what song would you use to describe yourself?

vif:

"at last" by etta james. it's so me.

“i found a dream, that i could speak to

a dream that i can call my own

i found a thrill to rest my cheek to

a thrill that i have never known “

bes:

i don't like to describe myself.

what are your plans for the future?

vif:

the future... i don't really have any solid plans for the future. the future is such an enigmatic elusive thing.

bes:

yeah, it's hard to say. it seems cocky to make plans in today's reality. we have music that we've been working on for a while, we even recorded several songs while going through hotel rooms, so i guess we'll do something about it. i think recently we subconsciously avoid long-term planning and tend to do things on a whim.