Webinar: Celebrating LGBT+ Inclusion at Chelsea
I know this event was not recorded so here are some notes from the âCelebrating LGBT+ Inclusion at Chelseaâ webinar. Please note: these are NOT direct quotes!! I didnât start taking super detailed notes until a few minutes into the panel, sorry about that. And I did a quick read through but I apologize for any typos or grammatical errors.
The panel included Chris Gibbons (moderator), Pernille Harder, Sara Matthews, Graeme Le Saux, and Funke Awoderu
Chris: introduced each panelist and talked a little about rainbow laces
Graeme: (general point: weâve made a lot of progress in the last 5-10 years, especially since I retired. Sorry, I wasnât taking as detailed notes right at first)
Funke: (general point: Authentic support is so important.)
Sara: Sport brings people together. Chelsea is a brand with international following and a huge platform. Zero tolerance policy for a long time, internal and external. Demonstrating by doing not just by saying. Want to understand their demographic, look at areas where they are less diverse and how to address that. Look at who works in football, show a different type of recruitment.
Chris: I was nervous about being an out gay man coming into working at the FA. I asked in my interview about whether it was an open environment for a gay man and got a very thorough answer about anti-discrimination policies. Has that developed?
Funke: Yes, if you canât see it, you canât be it. Data tells us something. Use it well to inform you plans. Proud of the LGBTQ+ people in the FA and their contributions. Donât want to put people in boxes so we are trying to build a progressive, diverse environment. Learn from others and peopleâs lived experiences. Listen to the stories people tell. Weâre on the right road. If you canât see it, you canât be it. And it needs to happen on the leadership level.
Chris: Welcome to Chelsea, Pernille. I want to understand your experience of culture in the womenâs game- previous clubs, international, and now being new to Chelsea. Womenâs game is known for being open. What are your thoughts/experiences?
Pernille: Womenâsâ football has always been open about homosexuality. Locker room and fans are very open. In Denmark environment- I wasnât out, not comfortable. No one else was homosexual. Itâs important that you donât feel alone. I felt a difference right away when I came to Sweden, it was so normalized. I felt I could be myself which is the most important thing.
Graeme: I agree so much. If you feel youâre isolated, it stops you being yourself and others being themselves too. Infrastructure and support and work being done outside the game holding football accountable. Learning from other environments that are further ahead in inclusivity. Pernille, Iâm curious, do you think not being out in Denmark held you back?
Pernille: It might, I didnât think about it at the time. [After coming out], I felt more calm and secure and like I could be 100% self. I felt more honest with myself. It feels better when you trust yourself and what youâre doing. It reflects when you play too.
Chris: Where does it come from? Fans, locker room, Chelsea? What creates a positive, inclusive environment?
P: All individuals are open minded. No one uses sexuality or religion in a negative way. Comes from teammates, staff, everything around you. [Itâs important that] the highest leaders in the club are inclusive, affects everyone underneath and what values to act from.
Sara: Reading on stonewalls website 43% of LGBTQ+ people donât feel welcome at public events (not sure about this stat), such a shame. Being at Kingsmeadow, wow, what a different number that would be. A great place to come enjoy sport and feel very welcome and be a positive perception change.
Chris: We have lots of womenâs team fans with us. Go to Chelsea womenâs games!! (Mentions Chelsea Pride group and a few other groups and initiatives.) Graeme, why is a group like this so important? Why did you want to be a patron?
Graeme: To get honest feedback from people, get perspectives. Groups of different communities and perspectives are so important. They are a signpost for people who donât have the confidence or support around them in their own lives. Can help people get into watching football and know that itâs a safe space. Every space should be safe of course, which is the next chapter- people donât have to work under and umbrella to feel safe and welcome. Itâs all built on trust and openness. Willingness to admit you might not get everything right all the time.
Chris: Pernille, you havenât had much chance to engage with fans at Kingsmeadow, but why do you think these groups are important?
P: Itâs important to feel a part of something and not alone. Groups like that help with this. Yesterday, we finally had fans back, 700 I think. I canât wait to get more. In womenâs football, fans love football, they donât care who you are- sexuality, skin color.
Chris: Funke mentioned before the diversity of LGBTQ+. Trans people still feel a lot of barriers in taking part in sport. In 2014, the FA published policy on trans participation. Do you think football is becoming more inclusive for trans people?
Funke: This is one area that the whole game needs to collaborate better. LGBTQ+ identities are all lumped together right now. Lots of differences in LGBTQ+ community that weâre not considering, more conversations around gender identity, inclusion, education- we need to do the work around the journey for LGB work and apply it to trans inclusion. Now more than ever. Thereâs so much toxicity and miseducation. If weâre true to âthe game is for everybodyâ, we canât leave trans community behind. To come out as trans is not an easy thing to do, LGB people can pass but trans people sometimes cannot. Educate ourselves, use that to inform policy
Chris: How does that reflect what clubs are doing?
Sara: On the subject of intersectionality- we have to be honest. The data we have today is very recent. People are reluctant to report honestly, there may be fear. From an employer of choice perspective and perception- itâs about fairness, change the stereotype (like who works in football). Weâre talking about diversity and inclusion every day. Huge range of departments which means you can bring in a huge range of people with different skills and experiences. You can create a different culture for the organization. Starts at recruitment, put forward the culture of the organization. When she sits in interviews, people ask about DEI, sustainability, corporate social responsibility. People expect their organization to have a narrative and verbalize what they think and feel about discrimination. Chelsea has stepped forward and said zero tolerance but message needs to be confirmed internally. Much more to be done. Education and information- it was not too long ago when women werenât prevalent in the workforce, but itâs changed. Change happens fast. Lots of new and different people entering the workforce. Listen to people with different perspectives and points of view. We can create a better employee environment by making it so no one is âthe otherâ, which comes with diversity
Chris: People have seen news about fans booing when people kneel and other negative reaction and thatâs what sticks. What more needs to be done to tackle culture of hate in the stands? ..... Pernille, do you hear much discriminatory language in the stands at womenâs game? Whatâs your experience?
P: No, fan culture is very different in menâs and womenâs football. Menâs football is so big so there are a lot of different football fans. Itâs difficult to say what to do to change it. Itâs important to do something and act. Responsibility of players and other fans- trying to create a different fan culture. Standing up when you hear something. Players need to be stubborn and must stand up for each other.
Chris: Do you think if there was abuse, the response form the womenâs game would be robust and quick? More solidarity [than in menâs football]?
P: I donât know because I havenât experienced it. I guess so
Graeme: Itâs great that you havenât experienced that. Thatâs a really big plus.
Chris: Chelsea was the first club to introduce fan re-education (like if a fan was banned for certain language anti-Semitism, theyâd have a chance to learn more about why that language was not acceptable). Player re-education exists. How do we get fans to understand this better?
Graeme: Itâs important to understand context of where itâs coming from, help someone overcome prejudice by learning something new. Doesnât send out the right message to just throw someone out. There are a lot of things we grow up with contribute to this ignorance, so figure out where itâs coming from. Set boundaries of what we will and wonât tolerate. Give people a chance to own up to their mistakes. Iâve made some big mistakes in my career and been punished. I was taught to be honest, deal with consequences, and move on. That might remove external pressure. Make transition a bit smoother [as football moves forward], bring more people along
Chris: Funkeâs been involved with the Rainbow laces campaign since early days. What impact do you think it has on the pro and grassroots game?
Funke: Immeasurable impact. Every start of the campaign gets better and better with the amount of support. It connect with adult and youth football. People love what the campaign stands for and want to get behind it and support it. Normalizing the playing field, this is a great opportunity to demonstrate the values and culture of your club. Challenge: how to continue to innovate and be creative in conversations and take it to the next level. It continues to grow and grow. More and more, people are taking a personal stand and educating themselves. Campaign has been a success but we wonât rest on our laurels. We must continue.
Chris: I tell youth players about the rainbow laces campaign and they sort of roll their eyes because they learn about and talk about this in school (and with their peers). The culture moving forward will be much more inclusive with the next generation of players. Do you think this will happen in clubs? (I didnât quite catch this question but I think this is what he asked)
Sara: Yes. People wanted to be associated and show support, bummer we arenât working at Stamford bridge in person. The next generation is going to be so important. Thereâs a lot of hate, and standing up against all of is important. People do want to learn- the more you learn, the less afraid you are to ask questions. People are still afraid of offending sometimes too but weâre moving toward really celebrating difference.
Chris: (reads a submitted question out loud about how Pernille is a role model and inspired this person to come out and be themselves) Pernille, how does it feel to be a role model for LGBTQ+ people, not only in sport?
Pernille: Itâs great to hear this question. When I was younger, I missed some role models who were homosexual. I try to live as if itâs nothing special. Iâm just myself, not hiding anything. That means showing pictures with my girlfriend and just acting normally. I donât want to do something that doesnât feel genuine. A lot of people like that Iâm just myself and not embarrassed [about being homosexual].
Chris: There are people out there that think youâre a role model too, Graeme. Do you have a sense of the importance of role models?
Graeme: Once you have a profile, you recognize responsibilities associated with that. Whether you like it or not, you become a role model. None of us set out to be a role model. If you take money from sponsors because they think you can sell the product, you should be happy to be a role model, comes with the territory. Some people are more suited to that so itâs important to not hold people to go beyond their comfort. I take great pride in my ability to support things I believe in. I support in public and private and I donât share everything about myself in public. Stand up and support values and principles, even when itâs not related to me. I was very alone in experience of defending myself [from rumors of being gay] while supporting people around me. Itâs a big challenge in many ways. I will always do what I do out of principle. With a profile, you can reach more people.
Chris: Another question for Sara and Funke- what is the clubâs response to supporters who have troll comments on rainbow laces posts? Should the club work harder to block and remove those comments?
Sara: The club wonât be dissuaded from doing the right thing. Follow discrimination laws- we will support and take action. Block and report when they can on social media. We do see other people who are posting challenge those comments. Those are important parts, have to work with social media companies, itâs not just trolling in football. Social media companies have to help as well to help manage this
Funke: Any organization driven by principles and values, there will always be haters sharing their view. We take the same measures that Sara just said. Year to year, the ecosystem conversation, calling people out, challenging people back. We know those comments will come. Work with social media companies to have more coordinated effort to take things down. Threshold for football is higher compared to those organizations [social media companies], makes it challenging to take things down immediatelyÂ
Chris: Graeme and Pernille, do you deal with trolls?
P: yes, there are a few. There will always be haters, especially when you speak up about your opinion. I mostly ignore them and focus on the positive. More positive than negative, positive people will comment on the negative which is amazing
G: yes, I do. I donât like to give those people oxygen. As soon as you start engaging, you risk it escalating. Turn to social media companies for support too.
Chris: Thatâs the end of the hour, thanks all for your time! Iâm so looking forward to where these conversations will go in the future.