Quotes from Mary & Stella McCartney on Sibling Revelry (With Kate & Oliver Hudson)
A few stories and quotes I liked from this podcast, which I'd recommend to listening to because Mary and Stella are super comfortable talking to Kate and surprisingly candid. I’ve mostly picked stories about their experiences growing up with Paul and Linda here.
(thoughts from me in green!)
On realising Paul was famous:
MARY: But then also there’s a funny thing that I was thinking about the other day, because you know, you guys know, everyone goes was there a moment? But in way it’s your family and your family is your norm that you know, so we did grow up going on tour and things, but more when we’d watch TV and we’d have like, TV with dinner on our laps, on the sofa – couch – watching TV and then Dad would come in and start playing a song on the guitar, the acoustic, and we’d be like, ‘Dad, could you go somewhere else to play this, please? We are watching the television!’ And he’s like–
KATE: I was gonna say, your Dad always ends up at some instrument.
MARY: Yeah, and so he’d be like, ‘But do you know how many people would be desperate for me?’ And so I suppose that was a bit like ‘oh yes, you are Paul McCartney, but could you go and do it somewhere else, we’re watching this. We respect you, but like, we’re watching…’
Paul trying to play everyone a little song at dinner time and his kids being completely unimpressed and him pulling the 'don't you know who I am' card really made me giggle. But damn right, it's so annoying when people are being noisy when you're trying to watch TV!
On Paul and Linda’s wardrobe:
STELLA: So I had a birthday party recently, it was seventies, and I was looking through all my Mum and Dad’s clothes, like all their Wings stuff because it was seventies, and I found this pair of dungarees with like - amazing dungarees - like all embroidered with Wings on the pockets, on the arse, like studs everywhere, and this like, patched up… And I just assumed they were Mum’s, and I was like ‘I’m gonna rock a dungaree look to my party, these are fierce, I’m gonna get her platforms’... I put them on, they’re tiny, tiny. And then my daughter Bailey is like ‘Oh, I’ll wear them, they’ve got flares.’ Like, you’d die. And then I saw something literally yesterday, with Dad like, ‘Hi’ – seventies, he’s got his mullet, full on mullet, and he’s like ‘Hi, I’m Paul,’ and he’s rocking the dungarees.
Just another story of Stella getting excited because of them sharing each others clothes and the androgyny of it all, because they're my favourite stories. Also the fact the dungarees are tiny! Stella also talks about how Linda and Paul kept so much of their clothes and we need to become pals so I can go and see it (and steal it).
Question: Did you ever hate being the daughter of your parents?
STELLA : I never hated it. I definitely chose not to go into that world because I hated everyone else around it, to be honest. I didn’t hate it or [Paul and Linda], I hated the media for quite a long time. I was very angry at how mean they were to Mum, how mean they were and ridiculed us for being vegetarians. Which of course now, we like... we were pretty ahead of our time there. I hated other aspects of it; I didn’t love getting pulled out of school to go on the road when I was like eighteen.
MARY: Also we went to a state school, like a normal, local school, so even though… it’s great because we were around normal people and it was a really good, grounded upbringing, we still did stand out quite a lot in that area. So there were times where it was like, really awkward and you felt a bit– [Cut off].
They mention a few times during the interview about how Linda used to be spoken about in the press, and it hadn't really clicked with me before that they would have been aware of this and it must have been so awful. Also good to hear Stella talking about how it was difficult for them to drop everything on tour. Paul often glosses over it because he obviously loved bringing everyone with him, so it's nice to hear another angle. Then also the awareness that even though Paul and Linda tried to keep things quite normal when they were at home, they did know they were standing out quite lot. What an odd childhood.
Growing up pre-internet and phones:
MARY: We did have that growing up, and Stel and I in Scotland, we would go out in the morning and just literally walk – you and I would build camps together, we’d collect things, we’d make games up, and that’s what makes us so close. Like, I was on a photoshoot in Scotland and I saw a flower that reminded me of Stella, and I took a picture and sent it, and I was like, I don’t need to say a thing – I was with this person and I was like, ‘wait I’m gonna get a response back immediately’ and she was like laughing. It just takes you right back to that moment, just looking at one flower.
Just cute! I love that Scotland holds so many happy memories for them.
Mary’s first memory of Stella:
MARY: We were in beds next to each other, and we’d just talk and then we would run around together, and if one of us had to go to the bathroom we’d wake the other one up and run into the bathroom together–
STELLA: There were witches under our bed!
I really want to know how Paul responded to things like 'there's witches under the bed' because I kinda think he might have just been like 'yeah' and then used it to wind them up until Linda told him to quit it when he inevitably took it too far.
Question: Was there a moment of separation because of your competitive spirit?
STELLA: What it was, well, so we went to the country when I was about five. Mum and Dad basically were strange creatures and they chose to just do the exact opposite of what one would expect, so we went to Scotland and we lived in a house that was basically as big as the room we were in, which is not a massive room, all six of us, one toilet, like all of the four children at that point in one room, bunk beds, you know? And so, we moved from London, and we moved to a round house in a forest in the south of England, and we shared a bedroom, me and Mary and our older sister Heather, and our youngest brother lived in a cot in the dining room. And you know, you’d bump your head in the morning and all that kind of stuff… Why am I telling you this? Oh! So what happened was, not only did we get to a stage where – I think we just all lived on top of each other. So Mary became like, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen and had all her friends, and I was like, ‘Can I be your friend, can I be in your gang!?’ And it was just like, ‘No, back off, you’re really annoying and these are my friends and these are my clothes’.
MARY: But they are still all your friends!
STELLA: They all liked me more anyway… So what I remember, more than a harsh kind of competitiveness, it was more like, no you can’t borrow my jeans. That was harsh enough for me.
MARY: And then she went ‘I’ll design my own jeans’!
Okay, there's a a few interesting things here. First, Stella calling Paul and Linda 'strange creatures' is great. Then the whole living situation is mad. I didn't realise they were living in such close quarters across multiple houses. I haven't fully articulated the thought, but there's surely no financial reason for it, so I wonder if it's partly because the people Paul had been closest too, The Beatles, had spent so much time living on top of each other, it had warped his ideas about what was needed for close bonds? Arguably, things started to fall apart when they weren't touring any more, so I think there's something there about Paul wanting to keep everyone very close physically. I understand the taking everyone on tour thing, because otherwise that's huge amounts of time with both parents away from the kids, but why were they living like this!
And then I also just love hearing the really normal things, like the jeans bit is just... yeah that's sisters! Oh, and Stella losing her train of thought haha. The McCartneys are all such ramblers.
On Linda’s breast cancer diagnosis:
MARY: Stella and I shared a bed that night, when we found out that news.
STELLA: I remember… well, she passed away when I was twenty-seven, you were twenty-nine? She sadly suffered four years, five years?
MARY: Two years of treatment.
STELLA: Two years of treatment? Wasn’t it… Oh… I felt like it was much-
MARY: It felt like forever, but it was two years.
KATE: Did that bring you guys really close?
Both: Yeah.
STELLA: We have a thing in our family where health is wealth, and really nothing else matters. You know, we all have crazy lives, and we all can get riddled with anxiety, you know, all these things and something tiny can just be the biggest, biggest problem of the day. And I always, I think that’s one thing as a family, it doesn’t matter what happens, nothing compares to that. So it kinda puts things into perspective. And I definitely think it brought us all so much closer together.
STELLA: And what was interesting for us, and a lot of people, is obviously we couldn’t tell anyone. It wasn’t like it is nowadays where people are like, actually- Which is great! If they can come out and talk about it in the public eye and say check yourself, it’s preventive, you know? We very much went into a kind of closed doors… It was a very kind of fragile moment, but you know, you couldn’t tell anyone. So I was at work, we were all just carrying on like nothing was happening which is really shit.
It's so heart breaking that they lost her so young, and the fact they couldn't be open about it is horrible - that was something that hadn't occurred to me! It makes total sense as well, not only was it not the done thing (I guess?) but with how they felt about the press as well, obviously they didn't want people asking them about it, trying to get information. And the 'we were all just carrying on like nothing was happening' is just such classic Paul, goddammit.
Also the health is wealth thing, and just thinking about Paul losing both his Mum and his wife to cancer and drumming it into the kids that you have to look after yourself before anything else.
They discuss how they feel they’re continuing Linda’s legacy with the food, photography, sustainability in fashion, and then:
STELLA: Mum would be the first person to say ‘fuck it, don’t do anything, you’re all really busy and stressed and you’ve got eight children between the two of you, give it a break! You’ve proved yourselves!’ Like, Mum would be like ‘Why are you still doing this?’
Later in the same conversation:
STELLA: She was the best Mum. The most loving, natural, unaffected, like, pure, angel Mum. So when I’m screaming at my children going ‘fuck, fuck, fuckity-fuck!’ I go, ‘Ooh, maybe I could possibly reflect on what my Mother might do in this situation’.
So the 'fuck it, don't do anything' quote made me think of that story Paul tells (and I can't find the exact quote now) that's along the lines of, he was working and decided to take a break, sat on the sofa and apologised to Linda, and she had to tell him it was okay to rest? (something like that!). I love that they've internalised both Paul's work ethic, and Linda's reminders that rest is important.
Also Stella is just really funny, and the way she talks about Linda here is the sweetest.
After Linda died:
MARY: I didn’t plan to have kids at that point, I literally… Mum died and a week later I was like, I’m going to become an alcoholic, I’m gonna drink, I’m gonna get trashed for the rest of my life.' And literally a week later, Mum was probably like ‘what one thing can I do to stop her doing all that’ and was literally pregnant a week later.
I have many thoughts about this. There is something reminiscent of Paul's behaviour in 68 and depression post break up and his response being to throw himself into family life as quickly as possible.
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"I’ve always loved animation. It started with the Disney cartoons and went on from there. As a kid I would always get the Rupert Annual at Christmas. I remember getting the idea for a film project when looking through one of them. There was a standout image in colour and when I saw it I could imagine a concert of frogs with them all doing different parts, a choir and an orchestra, and I could almost hear the music."
Quote from Paul's website
Paul's childhood response to anxiety about National Service:
However, when I was a kid, living on the outskirts of Liverpool, I didn't know this was going to happen so I had to be prepared. In my mind I would imagine myself with a bayonet, because that was the symbol of it all, and imagine myself running someone through, and I thought, Jesus Christ! That is not going to be easy. Fuck me! What's the look on his face going to be like if I do it? Having quite a vivid imagination, I'd follow all that shit through. So when I went out into the woods, I thought I'd better get some practice in. So I thought, Frogs. That'll do, because all my mates killed frogs anyway. They used to blow them up sticking a straw up their ass. That was the way to kill a frog. I didn't fancy that, I thought that was a little bit pervy. I thought a straightforward killing with a bash, hold the legs and just smash 'em on the head. You feel that you've got to learn to kill, like a farmer's boy who grows up and learns to kill that goose and wring that chicken's neck. But I didn't have the farm, so there was no other way to learn.
I felt very conscious that I was going to shit out completely when this National Service arrived. I was going to be one of the guys who said, 'Sorry, sir, I'm a pacifist, I can't kill,' and I'd have to go to jail. I was in a dilemma in my mind. So I used to kill these frogs.
Interview from Many Years From Now, by Barry Miles (1997)
Gently Holding Frog:
My Mum was picking up... We were walking and she picked up a frog and moved it so it wouldn't get squashed. But the picture itself is all about the frog. He'd being held very firm but kind, and the expression on his face is just... it's bit like life, just like, don't fight it, just go with it.
Mary McCartney, 'In the Studio' Sotheby's Interview
Another anecdote about Linda:
PAUL MCCARTNEY: ...Linda cared so much for the natural world around us. I remember once, we were around some formal ladies, in a formal garden, and there was a frog. They all saw the frog. She picked it up. The ladies scream, ‘Oh no, you're touching a frog!' And of course, the frog pees. Probably because of all the screaming. It's an immediate reaction. And she would always say, 'His mommy loves him’.
