Differences in FP and LTTM's Characterization in Downpour vs. Vanilla
Opening
This post was initially a series of "slides" I made in response to stalkiwi_X on twitter, ( @stalkiwirw on Tumblr) who asked:
"I'm genuinely curious because I played RW for the first time when Watcher came out, and even tho I played all the vanilla campaigns before installing the MSC expansion, I don't see or understand what is contradictory or mischaracterizing in how Downpour wrote the Iterators?"
"Maybe I'm sort of biased because I'm quite attached to the characterization Downpour gave us (after all, it expanded MUCH MORE on the Iterators and their relationships), but yeah it's an opinion I've seen a lot, except that everytime I saw it it came off as some sort of elitist take like "yeah I'm an OG and I hate the DLCs and the changes they did to the real game" which isn't really helpful for me to understand."
That last part is why I made this; I wanted to help my viewpoint (which is in varying respects shared by others) be understood. I know a lot of rw discourse can get heated and haughty, esp on twitter. But I digress. I'm going to do my best to communicate this once again.
First, I must clarify: I'm restricting the scope to Moon and Pebbles. I know there are people who dislike the writing of the Iterators in DP as a whole, but that is not me. I care about Downpour's characterization of LTTM and FP, as I feel it does not capture them well. The changes to NSH and SRS are of far less concern to me (at least in a vacuum) as their characters in Vanilla / Base Game (I use these terms interchangeably) are far less established.
That being said, I think part of the reason this discussion may be difficult to understand is the muddiness — Because Vanilla is more ambiguous and open-ended and implicit it is difficult to point out direct Contradictions / Mischaracterizations, and a lot of the discrepancy lies in the method of delivery and the overall design philosophy behind the respective games. Also, James did not write the dialogue for DP, so that's the biggest difference, obviously. And I admit I remain steadfast in the two being distinct artistic works. It is inevitable that these two do not feel the same.
Still, I do think the characterizations have some key differences, and I'd like to point them out / explain why I don't like their approach (though you can ignore this part).
1. Seven Red Suns' Involvement (And how it affects FP)
I think the biggest change is probably in SRS and FP's relationship and subsequently the nature of Pebbles' actions. (This is unfortunate, since Suns is woefully underutilized outside of Spearmaster's campaign -- but that's assumedly due to logistical issues given More Slugcats (Downpour) was a collection of mods made by several people and not a singular cohesive vision. I digress; we must focus on the topic at hand).
Downpour follows, primarily, the story of Five Pebbles and Looks To The Moon. We explore, through various points in the Timeline, the states of FP and LTTM and the progression of their relationship in the aftermath of Pebbles' experiment. This should be clear-cut: Pebbles (nearly) kills Moon; he is consumed by guilt, moon heals; the two eventually reconcile. Pebbles is forgiven for his wrongdoings and Moon receives closure and further healing from the reconciliation. But now there is another guilty party, and that complicates things.
In Vanilla, SRS is hardly noteworthy. Moon calls them Pebbles' friend, and Chasing Wind says that Suns is one of the few people Pebbles listens to. Pebbles seems to respect them, and he seeks their guidance on at least one occasion.
Sky Islands 1 (More Slugcats Expansion Dark Green Pearl (SI_west)) "This one is an old conversation between Five Pebbles and a friend of his. I'll read it to you." (Moon) "1591.290 - PRIVATE Five Pebbles, Seven Red Suns FP: Can I tell you something? Lately... FP: I'm tired of trying and trying. And angry that they left us here. The anger makes me even less inclined to solve their puzzle for them. Why do we do this? SRS: Yes, I'll spell this out - not because you're stupid or naive... Also, not saying that you're not ~ FP: Please, I'm coming to you for guidance. SRS: Sorry, very sorry. I kid. Fact is, of course we are all aware of the evident futility of this Big Task. It's not said out loud but if you were better at reading between the lines there's nowhere you wouldn't see it. We're all frustrated. FP: So why do we continue? We assemble work groups, we ponder, we iterate and try. Some of us die. It's not fair. SRS: Because there's not any options. What else CAN we do? You're stuck in your can, and at any moment you have no more than two alternatives: Do nothing, or work like you're supposed to. SRS: An analogy. You have a maze, and you have a handful of bugs. You put the bugs in the maze, and you leave. Given infinite time, one of the bugs WILL find a way out, if they just erratically try and try. This is why they called us Iterators. FP: But we do die of old age. SRS: Even more incentive! You know that nothing ever truly dies though, around and around it goes. Granted, our tools and resources get worse over time - but that is theoretically unproblematic, because in time even a miniscule[sic] chance will strike a positive. All the same to them, they're not around anymore! FP: I struggle to accept being a bug."
They don't seem all that influential on FP, at least, not explicitly. FP seems to have strong opinions of his own, playing off Suns' expressions of the more common perspective of their peers. It's possible that Suns is something of a Mentor to FP, but they're not described as such here; more emphasis is placed on them giving FP space to express his ideas. (Implicitly; again, they don't have much of a presence in Vanilla. You could interpret them as an important Mentor or more as a Confidant. It's hard to clarify this without it being clunky, sorry.)
side note: I see this misunderstood quite a bit; it was the perceived inevitability of the Iterator's success that defined their creation; in part, it also influenced their creators' decisions to leave. <- Though, it should be noted that "mass ascension" was a Gradual Process, and by some point the population grew so small as to be unsustainable. Anyways, I feel it is a common misconception that the Iterators were seen as "doomed" by their Creators, and thus an act of cruelty. .
But that is a topic of discussion / analysis worth its own lengthy post, one that accounts for the nuance of intent versus outcome (and thus how Iterators have been Impacted / Feel about it) and of the distinction between those directly responsible for the Iterators' creation and those that came after, as well as for the variety in perspectives and experiences of citizens otherwise.
Subterranean - Dark Magenta (SB_ravine) ... "1681.662 - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, Chasing Wind CW: Have you had any contact with Five Pebbles recently? SRS: Not in a long while actually! Unless worrying about him counts. CW: One of his neighbors, Unparalleled Innocence, sent an overseer to his can and got some images. They were made public in the local group, in an effort to be mean I suppose. There's no other way of putting it - he looks awful. SRS: Tell me. CW: He's got the rot, very badly. Big cysts have become mobile and are scattering down the west and middle legs. He does listen to you, and few others by now, so you should talk to him. SRS: I will try to contact him. Does Moon know? CW: Moon has been unavailable for some time."
On the whole, though, Suns is largely uninvolved with FP's Local Group. Suns is mostly here to provide background info on Iterators and inform us (the player) of FP's situation with the rot. Their role is expositional.
This is not something Downpour changes (afaik), but something people can miss - Seven Red Suns is not part of the same Local Group as Five Pebbles, as they were not aware of the Rot before Chasing Wind's contact. They're also not present in the Group Convo about Erratic Pulse. (Though, neither is Unparalleled Innocence.) Alternatively, Suns is a turbo-hermit, but this is far less likely.
By contrast, their role in Downpour is crucial. They're the one who encouraged FP to look into more unconventional / controversial theories, and that's how FP found himself in those anonymous groupchats chasing after Sliver Of Straw's success.
Garbage Wastes - Deep Viridian (GW) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This is one of my own pearls, or at least part of it. ...It was not until I met Seven Red Suns, and learned about Sliver of Straw that I began to break out of my shell. Most of my old theories went out the window, and others evolved once I started talking in those anonymous groups. And then... I made a mistake, and I cannot forgive myself for it. I was desperate... angry... I wanted a way out. My way out! And that came at the cost of everything... I thought I could do it quicker... it was taking too long, I almost had it! I did not anticipate she would... And then, I hurt the one person who I thought understood what I was trying to do... Please leave with this. I don't want to think about it anymore. Not until I've recovered."
Sky Islands - Dark Green (SI_west) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This is an old conversation between myself and a close friend who I considered a mentor. We have... Not spoken for a long time now. I can't bring myself to do so. Not after what happened between us. None of them understood my theories, but Suns, they trusted me. They risked so much trying to help me, and I hurt them. It's only now, after I've had so much time to think on it, that I understand why I was so angry. I lashed out, because out of everyone, they were the last individual I wanted to confront me about my mistakes... I can't go back now. All I can try to do is recover and try again. I have to.
side note: I wish his emotional conflict with Suns was better expanded upon; this has a lot of potential. His dismissal of his real victim (Moon) in favor of his friend (Suns) is also interesting. I wonder if Pebbles having Pearl Dialogue in Rivulet could have capitalized on this; I think his emotional recognition could have developed into understanding and empathizing with Moon's feelings, rather than just acknowledging he fucked up and saying he can't run from his mistakes (without further reflection). Again, this is off-topic and a consequence of logistical issues, I imagine.
They're also the only one Pebbles could trust with this sort of information openly. This is an extension of their Vanilla characterization as previously mentioned.
Honestly, I think this dynamic is interesting, and I think there was missed potential with how it went unexplored after Arti campaign. And if this dynamic was all that DP added / expanded on, I don't think most people would mind (though it'd still be diff from Vanilla obvi). But...
The issue is in the Execution. It's not that Suns was an Enabler or stood by idly while Pebbles discussed his plans to break the self-destruction taboo. Instead, THEY provided Pebbles with the methodology to do so, and it is framed like FP wouldn't have done so / wouldn't have been able to had Suns not provided it for him.
Chimney Canopy - Gold (CC) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This was a gift from a close friend. It is instructions on how to remove the self-destruction taboo..." (the rest of this is not relevant to this discussion and is being cut for brevity; I may address my extended thoughts another time.)
They Already Have - White 1 (LP_0) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Pre-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I can't stop dwelling over mistakes that I've made. I could just delete those memories of course, but that feels irresponsible. NSH: Oh? What kind of mistakes are we talking about here? SRS: I once gave someone some... sensitive information... the kind that could be dangerous if acted on. SRS: Yet I should have known they weren't in the right state to use that information responsibly. NSH: I take it you won't tell me the content, or to who. SRS: No, I will not, out of respect. NSH: Look, if you ever want to talk about it I can. We can share this little problem of yours. We were made to solve them after all! NSH: You're worried they're going to get themselves hurt by messing it up? SRS: They already have.
Plan in Motion - White 2 (LP_1) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Pre-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment NSH: It's pretty clear to me who you're talking about. Though I won't say who, out of respect ~ SRS: Please don't mock me, this is serious. SRS: The fact is, he really looked up to me. As much as I gave him a hard time, that's not something I took lightly. NSH: You're not the only one worried about him. I understand your position, but blaming yourself isn't productive. SRS: I understand that. I truly do. At this point we need to be taking action. NSH: I agree, but unfortunately there's not much that we can do being locked up in a box. NSH: Even less so that he's cut off all communication and is rejecting all help from the outside world. SRS: That may not be an issue, necessarily. I've already set a certain plan in motion...
side-note: the parallel to SI_west here is neat.
Humiliated - Gray 2 (LP_1_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I'm just so frustrated. SRS: I feel like I've doomed not one, but two iterators. SRS: And in the whole process I've lost a great friend, who won't even let me help him. NSH: We make mistakes, it'll be okay. You know Five Pebbles really looks up to you. SRS: Yes, I know that, but... NSH: I think he's scared. Scared, and humiliated. Unparalleled Innocence spreading the news probably made him feel even worse. SRS: ...I think you're right.
It is framed like Suns is, at least in some part, GUILTY for what FIVE PEBBLES did -- Or, at least, it is framed like it is understandable for them to feel guilty, and their guilt is the driving force of the Spearmaster campaign.
Downpour has shifted the burden of Pebbles' guilt (in part) onto Suns, and it has undermined Pebbles' agency in the process. So what were once Pebbles' actions in Vanilla are now the actions of Pebbles AND Seven Red Suns, creating a big distinction between the two. To clarify, it is not impossible that these events may have occurred in the Vanilla Canon, but the focus is never shifted from Five Pebbles regarding the guilt of his actions. Therefore, he has greater agency for said actions, whereas this is compromised is Downpour to focus on a broader conflict.
*Of course, you don't have to subscribe to the idea that Suns has any fault in Pebbles' actions, He's a grown man who can make his own decisions, but the framing of Pebbles in the rest of the campaign makes this more difficult. This leads into...
2. Pebbles' Heightened Immaturity
I think this is probably the MAIN thing that fans of Vanilla Pebbles dislike about his Downpour counterpart. I'm not a Pebbles superfan by any means, but it's also a point of contention for me. It ties into his diminished agency, and it weakens the primary emotional conflict for people like me who value Vanilla for being more grounded and realistic.
I think the intention was for the audience to view Pebbles as Responsible for his actions (given Suns' involvement disappears by the time of the Reconciliation ), but it is undermined by just how Juvenile Five Pebbles is made out to be. He feels like an Angsty Teenager, and that makes it feel like he is less responsible for his actions. You get the impression that SRS, as his Mentor, should've guided him better.
I think this is also why some people victim-blame Moon; she is uniquely parentified here (we'll get into that) and thus it feels fairer to act like she had a Responsibility to control his actions. <- I should note this is almost certainly NOT intentional; it's just an unfortunate accident, much like the impact of the Monk and Surv OE endings. Again, I should clarify that not all fans fall into this trap. It is also influenced by external societal factors (Downpour came from FANS, after all; it took from fanon! Moon's Parentification and Pebbles' Infantilization would exist regardless!), but the text itself nonetheless encourages us to see FP as comparatively juvenile.
Big Setback - Gray 7 (LP_6_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I remember talking with Five Pebbles not too long after he was first put online. He had a bit of defiance, even back then. SRS: It was an odd situation, to be certain. It's quite rare for one iterator to be made the administrator of another. Just as rare as them being built right next to each other. NSH: His lack of appreciation used to bother me. Moon was a great big sister to him! SRS: Yes, absolutely. However, Five Pebbles had a very strong drive for independence. He was never one to want to be told what to do. NSH: I think a lot of us were like that in the beginning. I remember being in that phase a very long time ago. It takes many iterations for our world views to develop and for us to realize the flaws in those lines of thinking. NSH: Unfortunately, from what I've seen, Five Pebbles seems to have plateaued at that phase. SRS: No, that's not true. I was helping him to get past it. We were making good progress, actually! SRS: The current situation, however, is going to be a very big setback...
The "Big Setback" Broadcast makes this pretty clear. Five Pebbles is alluded to being stuck in a "Phase" most Iterators encounter early in their lives. It's not difficult to understand how this makes him seem less mature than his peers. Suns is also said to be trying to help Pebbles get past it, placing them firmly in a coaching role. (Or, that is how Suns perceives themself, at least; this guy is honestly a pretty shit mentor and that patheticness is worth broader appreciation I Feel (luna propaganda). Still, the hierarchy is made clear, and we do not see it challenged by anyone except arguably Pebbles himself, albeit weakly.)
Garbage Wastes - Light Green 2 (Chatlog_GW1) (Spearmaster Broadcast) [[LOST HEADER INFORMATION]] - BROADCAST unknown group(NULL) No Significant Harassment, Big Sis Moon NSH: Moon? It's me again. NSH: I do not know if you are receiving these. Please signal in any way you can. NSH: I need to talk to you. I need to know you're okay. ...NSH: It's difficult for us to assist you over this distance. NSH: Even more difficult for us to do anything in the midst of these tantrums...
And NSH describes Pebbles as throwing tantrums. You know, like a child.*
*Sure, NSH may not be word of God, but we have so few active characters that when both SRS and NSH reinforce this view and when LTTM continues to define herself as FP's Big Sister (as opposed to a more equal status) it colors our perception of Five Pebbles as distinctly immature or juvenile.
There are also several mentions of FP looking up to SRS or mentioning / alluding to hierarchy or seniority or his relative juvenile status in some form (Broadcasts: LP_2, LP_1_PEB, LP_5_PEB, LP_6_PEB, Chatlog_GW1, Chatlog_LM0; Pebbles' Arti Pearls: SI_West, SI_chat4, etc). sorry i would like to move on you get the point
The other point is that this is not characterization present in Vanilla; Moon's status as group senior is not unique to FP (I'll touch on this in a minute), and his Behavior is different.
Side Tangent: FP's Flat Affect
an oft-overlooked component of FP's (Vanilla) Character is his relatively flat affect. He's more expressive in Downpour, in tandem with his heightened immaturity. This distinction is likely why his Voice feels so different between the two. Even in his more emotionally charged moments in Vanilla, he tends to express himself a certain way. We also see this style replicated at times in DP, though his outburst in Spearmaster is difficult to forget.
Five Pebbles - Spearmaster Encounter Dialogue "Suns...? Why did you send the messenger here again? Please leave, I cannot afford any further distractions; I am the only one who can fix this now. I trust that you understand me... You've brought your overseer all this way, the least I can do is read your message aloud for it. "Pebbles, I send you this message as your concerned and long time friend." "Unparalleled Innocence had sent an overseer to your can, and we've all observed the state that you are in. I know this is my fault, I should have foreseen you'd be too desperate to escape your situation to do things in proper moderation." "For that I'm very very sorry. However, please, don't disable your communication modules. You don't have to go through this alone... everyone has been trying to contact you, We only want to help you..." "The behavior from your can has become erratic, it's not healthy, and it is not going to solve your problems. We have lost all communications from Moon as well, and have reason to believe her facility may be suffering irreversible damage from your attempts to fix yourself." "I know better than anyone how you can be about these things, but it doesn't have to happen this way... please respond back." Astounding. You could never understand what I feel right now, being pitied and lectured like this! What use would your help be? Your benevolent charity is what got me here in the first place! I wanted to find my own way out, and now I sit here rotting because of you and Moon! I'm not just another bug wandering your worthless maze! I will reach my own solution, without any of you! Get out! GET OUT! ..."
His tone is desperate and loud; his shame, frustration, and resentment are on display in a very direct way. He seems burning with anger. I think this specific interaction contributes a lot to the view of FP as particularly emotionally expressive, or more crudely, as "tsundere" instead of "kuudere" (gross oversimplification).
In contrast, his Base-Game portrayal is far more muted in his expressions:
Sky Islands 5 (MSC Dark Magenta Pearl (SI_chat5)) ..."BSM: As your senior senior I plead BSM: stop Five Pebbles: You could not have chosen a worse moment to disturb me. You have ruined everything. BSM: please Five Pebbles: I almost had it. I will never forget this."
Scene with closest emotional stakes
His anger is quiet yet firm; he makes strong statements that are expressed more neutrally, as if he were relaying the simple facts of the situation. He's quite cold.
Five Pebbles - Common Dialogue (Vanilla) Lingering Too Long That's all. You'll have to go now. LEAVE. Little creature. This is your last warning. Returning to the Chamber You again? I have nothing for you. I won't tolerate this. Leave immediately and don't come back. You had your chances.
closest he gets to the spearmaster crashout in terms of Vanilla expressiveness, probably (???)
He really doesn't shout very often, is my point. Base Game seems very hesitant to give him an exclamation mark. though admittedly the sample size in Vanilla is smaller, so take that into account if you like. Again, it is difficult to argue Direct contradictions in many cases.
that's enough about Five Pebbles, though. Sorry, this is already terribly long. Let's talk about Moon!!!!
OP says,
"Maybe I'm sort of biased because I'm quite attached to the characterization Downpour gave us (after all, it expanded MUCH MORE on the Iterators and their relationships)..."
Which, on paper, is fair. I get that. Objectively, this is at least true for Suns and Sig, (and Pebbles, though in a Different direction), and it was certainly the intent for Moon. But ironically, I think my problem with Downpour Moon is that it feels like it doesn't expand on her as a character; in fact, it reduces her.
DP has a lot of opportunity to expand on her character, but it feels like it almost never tells us anything actually new or insightful about her character, and when it does add new things, it's usually to further Restrict her. Her personality begins and ends with "Big Sister", and this is never meaningfully addressed or deconstructed. (I apologize; this is where my critiques become louder and more biting. I do believe this to be true, however, and so it must be addressed as a key distinction between Vanilla and Downpour.)
3. Big Sister Moon (and Moon's De-Prioritization as a Character)
We're here for changes, so here's the Big One: Moon being Pebbles' unique Administrator and Big Sister.
Simply put, Moon is not in a unique Administrative Position over FP in the Vanilla game.
Big Setback - Gray 7 (LP_6_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I remember talking with Five Pebbles not too long after he was first put online. He had a bit of defiance, even back then. SRS: It was an odd situation, to be certain. It's quite rare for one iterator to be made the administrator of another. Just as rare as them being built right next to each other. NSH: His lack of appreciation used to bother me. Moon was a great big sister to him! SRS: Yes, absolutely. However, Five Pebbles had a very strong drive for independence. He was never one to want to be told what to do..."
this is unique to Downpour!
In Vanilla:
Sky Islands 5 (MSC Dark Magenta Pearl (SI_chat5)) I remember this. It isn't pleasant reading. But if you must hear it, this is what it says: "1654.116 - PRIVATE [FORCED] Big Sis Moon, Five Pebbles BSM: Immediately lower your groundwater consumption to one fifth of the current intake. BSM: Stop whatever it is you are doing. BSM: Please stop! BSM: As your local group senior I order you you you you you you BSM: As your senior senior I plead BSM: stop Five Pebbles: You could not have chosen a worse moment to disturb me. You have ruined everything. BSM: please Five Pebbles: I almost had it. I will never forget this."
Sky Islands 3 (MSC Dark Purple Pearl (SI_chat3)) ... "1650.800 - PRIVATE Five Pebbles, Chasing Wind, Big Sis Moon, No Significant Harassment CW: this is in confidence, but apparently a pseudonym "Erratic Pulse" has appeared on a nearby Sliverist conversation with ideas about personal ascension. Someone here in our vicinity is trying to cross themselves out. FP: Where did you hear this? NSH: I wish them super good luck in that endeavor. How is it going to happen? Have the overseers gnaw through bedrock until their entire can crashes down in the void sea? BSM: Please be respectful when speaking of the Void Sea. Grey Wind, where did you hear this? CW: I really shouldn't say. He's going to attempt some sort of breeding program. Thought you might want to know. NSH: Haha with the slimers, lizards and etceteras? Surely the answer was in a lizard skull all along! CW: Well, he's not looking for the same thing as we anymore, he's changed his task, so who knows really. BSM: I will try to find him and talk to him. Please don't spread this around! NSH: Moon will go get them! Long live the inquisition!"
Moon's status as Local Group Senior in Vanilla is more Ambiguous, (does she have powers beyond Forcing broadcasts? Put a pin in that) but it doesn't seem confined to JUST Pebbles. Even if jokingly, she seems to have NSH's (and Wind's?) respect, at least enough to let her try and handle the Erratic Pulse Situation.
More broadly, she's also never explicitly named as FP's Big Sister in specific in Vanilla; "Big Sis Moon" therefore is likely more of a Local Group role (assumedly). There is a lot that can be speculated about here, but that is sadly beyond the scope of this post (and I made an at least serviceable post on this already)
I do think Moon and Pebbles' close proximity + sharing water is allegorically is akin to siblinghood, as this seems to be a unique status even in Vanilla. But them being siblings in Vanilla is important more as a lens to explore the breakdown of their relationship and the subsequent fondness for one another they hold in the aftermath than it is about Moon specifically being Pebbles' Big Sister and Pebbles being her Little Brother.
They're placed more like equals, and in Hunter, Pebbles even refers to Moon as his "friend." A status that is without Hierarchy and is Given Freely. There's so much to say about Hunter dialogue but I will restrain myself (as this post is in dire need of it).
Pebbles also refers to Moon as a "friend" in Rivulet Dialogue, but it feels less impactful here because it is undermined by the (Forced) Broadcast that highlights their inequality and reinforces Moon's Role as Big Sister.
Despite much attention being drawn towards Moon's status as Pebbles' "Big Sister" in Downpour, Pebbles is never (as far as I could find) labeled as Moon's little brother (or even her brother at all for that matter). It is always Moon that is defined by her status as a Big Sister (usually Pebbles' in particular) and never Pebbles defined around his. I don't have a conclusion to this; I just thought it was interesting. (This probably reflects how "Big Sister" is more a more defined / defining Role than that of "Little Brother" in many Societies in real life, and it may perhaps reflect a similar trend in Rain World's World. I also think it is neat how fanon sometimes highlights Pebbles' little brotherhood in spite of this. (Even if I often do not care for the execution)
Downpour sets up that Pebbles exist for Moon's sake (though, more accurately, her Citizens'), yet, ironically, on a meta level, it is Moon who is defined by her relationship to Pebbles and not Pebbles by his relationship to Moon. In Vanilla, Pebbles' construction next to Moon is a matter of convenience, an arbitrary decision that results in drastic consequences down the line. You would think they would perhaps explore this massive difference in how it affected both Moon and Pebbles, but, despite the rich emotional conflict Base Game sets up with Moon and her relationship to her parents, we only get a brief aside about Pebbles ' thoughts on the apostate controversy and (admittedly fun) dialogue exploring his fondness for his creators' culture / art. But this is to say nothing of Moon's Obligations towards her siblings or how Pebbles may have felt overshadowed or anything you would expect an Obvious Sibling Dynamic to explore. It is also to say nothing of Moon in general, really.
I could make an entire post about the wasted potential of their relationship in Downpour that is simultaneously highlighted and yet woefully under-explored, but I must try to keep things concise here. I didn't mean to make these points so long oops
Administrative Power
Anyways, this change also makes Moon have more Power over Five Pebbles than before, which places a weird amount responsibility on her over Pebbles' actions and makes it stranger that she doesn't do anything to protect herself.
Tragic - Gray 6 (LP_5_PEB) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I just don't understand... why hasn't Moon done anything about the situation herself? SRS: She was appointed as Pebbles' superior. She has the power to stop him. NSH: I've been very close with Moon, and I can tell you she is incredibly caring. NSH: And while her kindness is one of her greatest attributes, it is also to her detriment. SRS: Isn't this excessive, though? Surely she at least has a sense of self-preservation. NSH: I'm sure she convinced herself that she could help Pebbles. That she could bring him under control with words rather than forced action. NSH: She's probably still trying that now, unless her systems have degraded past the point of even allowing that. NSH: That's why this is so tragic to me.
side note: put a pin in the NSH message
We see that Moon is non-confrontational in Vanilla as she avoids taking action until the last minute, but she ALSO calls for help!! And it's possible that she couldn't DO anything BESIDES forced broadcasts. She's passive, yes, but she's not suicidal!
Sky Islands 4 (MSC Olive Green Pearl (SI_chat4)) (Moon, Vanilla) "It's me writing to the local iterator group. I have no memories of this..." "1654.110 - PUBLIC Big Sis Moon to Local Group BSM: Two cycles ago, my neighbor Five Pebbles drastically increased his water consumption to four times the normal amount. He has been unresponsive for a period of time longer than that. The two of us share groundwater, and I have been without water for almost a cycle. BSM: Any attempts at communication have been met with complete silence, and my situation is becoming increasingly dangerous. BSM: I ask the local group for information about when you were last able to contact him, and to try to use those same communication channels again, repeatedly until you get a response. I will be clear on this - if he is not persuaded to stop whatever it is he's doing, I will die. BSM: Before that happens, I will utilize my seniority privilege and use forced communications, hoping to shake him out of it. Forced communications in the network will be unpleasant for all, and I will wait as long as possible before I turn to that option." And now here I am, to my waist in water and getting drowned on the regular.
Her tone is firm and formal; she speaks with authority. Her anxiety is also clear, highlighting the precariousness of her situation. You can also see that she is non-confrontational as she views forced communications as a last resort --- But because her capabilities are ambiguous, it's also reasonable to assume that this may be the strongest action she can take, and so she is not simply doing nothing.
On a side note, it kinda feels like this broadcast gets overlooked in Downpour. It's unfortunate, because I feel like it accomplishes a lot for character work, exposition, and worldbuilding. But I guess only Pebbles received it? Also, for some reason, SI_chat5 is missing from Moon's Spearmaster dialogue pool? Or maybe it's just the wiki.
Lacking Emotional Depth/Range
I should say that, on paper, I actually don't mind Moon being more of a doormat! There actually is such a thing as being "too nice". While I wouldn't say it is because of Kindness, which is STILL one of her greatest strengths, you can be too nice to people, too passive, too capitulating, and not kind enough to yourself. I'm a professional doormat myself, at times, I would know!! But the thing is... I also experience emotions, like a person. I want to be kind, yes, but not all of my feelings concern placating or comforting other people. I have other feelings! And Moon has other feelings, too, or at least she did in the Base Game. But we don't really get to explore Moon's feelings in Downpour. We don't get any insight into how she felt about dying beyond being Mildly Scared and Really Sad, but like in a Sage way because she basically already accepted her death by the time Spearmaster meets her. Her final broadcast isn't asking for help or her expressing her deep-seated emotions; it's about making sure everyone else feels better about her DYING.
Spearmaster - Dark Red (Spearmasterpearl) [LIVE BROADCAST] - (ANNOUNCEMENT) Big Sis Moon to Local Group BSM: This will be my final broadcast to the local group. BSM: Within several cycles my structure's legs will fail. Even if Five Pebbles were to calm, the damage has already been done. BSM: I can only hope that someday you will all find the answer to our great question. BSM: I do not think I will see that day. I want to thank everyone for trying so hard. It means a lot to me that you would all go to such lengths.* BSM: ... BSM: I can't excuse his actions, but I understand his frustration. We all share that. I only wish we had the chance to speak one last time. BSM: Thank you, everyone, I am happy to not be alone.**
* Genuinely why does she say this? What does this have to do with her at all? When has she ever expressed a personal vested interest in the Big Problem? She's been stated to have Tried Very Hard, (DS Pearl) but it's not a matter of particular pride. It's a bittersweet statement. It feels like an empty platitude. Maybe this is simply poor wording; it's possible I'm overly nitpicking and she meant trying to help her. But unless this is an error in the wiki, I feel it is fair to criticize this confusion.
**There's a lot of potential complexity in this line, given she is alone. The messenger is going to leave her, and she's going to collapse for a painful, indeterminate length of time before any real help arrives, IF it does. Which she doesn't seem to think it will. Maybe she's so desperate that this small gesture is truly comforting and makes her feel less alone. I'm sure it is. She just wants to be heard, and she surely values the company of everyone around her. Maybe she's said this doing the Iterator equivalent of biting back tears, trying to be grateful for the tiny rays of brightness in a terrible, churning darkness that's about to swallow her whole. Perhaps she's mourned herself in this moment, and perhaps that slipped through her brave face. Perhaps she may have even meant this in tiny part, as an ironic statement. But given the rest of this DLC, I am unsure how much of that complexity was intended. I like it, though, as I'm able to draw out that potential complexity nonetheless.
She expresses one personal wish, one personal request that isn't "please everyone be happy", in the entire Broadcast. (Arguably you could count "not being alone"; company is something she appreciates elsewhere. But the framing is questionable). And this, too, could be fine --- The fact that Moon feels Obligated to placate and comfort those around her and to never show her negative emotions to her group because she feels responsible for their emotional wellbeing COULD be really interesting! But this isn't a struggle she grapples with; it's Moon's default state of being, and it's never really challenged. When NSH points out that Moon's too kind for her own good, it feels hollow because it is never followed-up on or explored. I guess you could argue that it's explored in the Vanilla Dialogue, but that feels like a cop-out. This isn't Vanilla; this is Rain World: Downpour. It's a different game with a different philosophy, and Vanilla's ambiguity and subtlety doesn't work for what Downpour is trying to convey --- what Downpour DOES convey --- with its more Direct dialogue.
Regardless, Moon's lack of emotional depth and lack of interiority remains a sore point. But to tie this back to Version Differences, I'd like to point out how Moon has a greater emotional range in Base Game, and how Moon's lack of range in Downpour makes her feel distinctly flatter.
Take this Spearmaster Pearl Dialogue:
Looks to the Moon - Light Yellow (DM) Oh! This is one of my pearls. Did you extract this from my Memory Conflux? While I value your curiosity, I would prefer that you don't move things around or steal items from this facility. I try to keep everything as organized as possible, so that I don't forget. I value my data and memories quite a lot, it would be a tragedy to lose them! As for the contents of this pearl... it's a large batch of my personal notes and research. I don't have the time to go over all of this with you, nor do I think you would gain much from it. Could you please just put this pearl back where you found it?
She is literally dying. She is DYING. She is speaking to a RAT!!! Why is she comically polite?? Like. Yes. She is very respectful. But why is she so calm about it? Would she not freak out even a little? Would she not enforce herself even a TINY bit more than this??? Like, you know, Unintentionally?? Because her composure might slip from her DYING???? She's speaking like she's drafting a business email to Politely (and softly) ask her Coworker to give her back her stapler or something, which is bizarre, given the circumstances.
I get this isn't critical dialogue, but this isn't the only example of her lacking emotional range in Spearmaster. At most she stutters a few times (Spearmaster Encounter) and urges Spearmaster to hurry (Spearmaster Following Encounters), but she never really freaks out like she does when you harass her in the Base Game sometimes. See:
Moon Dialogue - Returning after an Interruption (Fifth time) If Looks to the Moon has more than 3 neurons left "If you behave like this, why should I talk to you? You come here, but you can't be respectful enough to listen to me. Will you listen this time? Look at me. The only thing I have to offer is my words. If you come here, I must assume you want me to speak? So then would you PLEASE listen? If not, you are welcome to leave me alone. Now if you'll let me, I will try to say this again."
Moon is respectful, but she's also noticeably stressed. She pleads with the slugcat somewhat desperately. She's trying to stay calm, but it's difficult for her because of her poor state and the extra strain the slugcat is adding onto that. See the difference?
side note: All Moon has to offer in her collapsed state IS her words. And she likes speaking, clearly. Why else would she read us all these pearls and ask us to listen? So, whenever she threatens not to speak with us, it's a very serious thing. And it also makes it so much worse when she loses her ability to speak properly (from neuron loss). this isn't related to anything, but it makes me happy to talk about Moon's character. :) i havea migraine
also i recognize this is the Fifth time but she has a LOT of dialogues to pick from that showcase her getting upset or freaking out or frustrated or etc and yet she is almost perfectly calm in spearmaster campaign despite arguably being in a more stressful state
We'll address another example.
Moon Dialogue - First Encounter After Receiving Mark of Communication If Looks to the Moon has 4 neurons left "Oh so you've returned. Come to take more from me? My memories, my thoughts... just something to fill your stomach? No... never mind. It's useless to be angry at an animal following its instincts. Once, a single neuron meant nothing to me... I see that someone has given you the gift of communication. Must have been Five Pebbles, as you don't look like you can travel very far... He's sick, you know. Being corrupted from the inside by his own experiments. Maybe they all are by now, who knows. We weren't designed to transcend and it drives us mad. I'm still angry at you, but it is good to have someone to talk to after all this time. The scavengers aren't exactly good listeners. They do bring me things though, occasionally..."
This is a Great example to showcase Moon's complexity. We see how she tends towards passive-aggression rather than direct aggression; we see her retract it, reflect, and move forward; and we see her express her feelings, acknowledging her anger, but also acknowledging her desire for company and to have someone to listen to her. She shows emotional maturity here, and, in combination with some other dialogues, a hint of emotional repression. There is a lot of depth expressed in just this one little except of dialogue! It's a strength I hope to someday replicate in my own works.
This is why I speak of missed opportunities. Meeting Moon pre-collapse should be new and exciting, but what we get is just a watered-down version of her. She's there to be a tragic martyr figure you feel bad for instead of an actual Person with feelings and wants and Interiority like the rest of the cast. The Most we get is watching her scream every so often as her chamber loses power, but that doesn't really express anything abiut how that powerlessness makes her feel. We don't get to see her verbalize her fear, her anguish, her despair, her anger, her resentment, her sense of loss --- and I really don't know why. We don't explore this in any of the OTHER campaigns, either.
She addresses a "long-since faded" anger in the rivulet ending broadcast, but we never get to SEE this. Like, I'm not one of those "Moon should be angrier!! Revenge is girl boss!" people. I don't think Moon should be overly Resentful or hateful or unforgiving. But anger is a [human] emotion, and she feels [human] emotions!! We get to see her frustrated and passive aggressive towards the slugcat; why don't we ever get to address those messy feelings towards her DEATH? It would mean more to see her actively suppress it or learn to let it go than to have it skimmed over like it never happened.
All of these changes (and my issues with them) culminate with the ending of Rivulet's campaign. Unfortunately, we end this campaign with Moon reinforcing her Role as the Big Sister who serves to comfort and heal others before herself.
I don't think it would make sense for Moon not to forgive Pebbles; it is very important that she does. I would argue Moon forgives him even in Vanilla; the way she speaks of him and her ability to understand his feelings through the neurons combined with who she is as a person + their shared circumstances makes it pretty clear. Furthermore, making the best of a bad situation and being able to grow and change are themes we see throughout Rain World as a whole (basegame and both DLCs). I want to clarify this because it is important to me, and forgiveness is a value I want to prioritize more in my own life.
Anyways. My issue with the Broadcast is in the execution; it's rather one-sided in favor of Pebbles' needs. Moon's final request in her dying Broadcast (Spearmaster) is to speak with Pebbles one last time. This is fulfilled, sort of, but it feels hollow when he's not speaking with her. It can hardly be called a conversation, and it doesn't do anything to address Moon and her feelings or struggles or needs. We're so close, yet so far.
Ending Broadcast - Rivulet [DIRECT BROADCAST] PRIVATE, FORCED - Big Sister Moon, Five Pebbles SOURCE NODE TRACE: LTTM_ROOT, FP_COMM04, FP_ROOT BSM: This is local group senior, Big Sister Moon BSM: Limited functionality has been restored to some of my basic systems. BSM: I've regained access to this communications array for the first time since the collapse. BSM: Through my overseers I have also caught up on some of the current events. BSM: Including what i've gathered by reading through my messages and equipment manifests. BSM: I am already aware of the large extent to which the local infrastructure has deteriorated. BSM: I do not know if sending this message will be a futile effort. BSM: Even before the collapse I could not broadcast beyond the extents of my local facility. BSM: And so clearly, this forced broadcast is addressed to you, Five Pebbles. BSM: Is there any chance that i can still reach you, despite the condition we both are in? BSM: I need to know. BSM: If in any chance this message arrives, please signal back if you can find a way. BSM: I know it may be uncomfortable for you to address me after all that has happened. BSM: We've both had a long time to think things through. Any anger I may have had has long since faded. BSM: I don't hold anything against you. If anything, we're both in similar dilemmas right now. BSM: And as your Big Sis, you know how protective I am of you!~ BSM: ... BSM: I'm sorry, Five Pebbles. I'll always be here if you need someone to talk to.
The fact that she spends the broadcast reassuring and soothing Pebbles to the best of her ability despite being the aggrieved party and is Left On Read really bothers me. Pebbles doesn't even properly apologize to her; he just transplants his "heart" and tells her "I cannot run from my mistakes forever; please understand." Which (and this may not be intentional, but the effect still remains) makes it all about HIM and HIS feelings instead of MOON'S. It's always about helping Pebbles! And again, I do think she would do this, but it feels weird that Pebbles, after ALL THIS TIME, doesn't have enough emotional growth to Talk To His Sister Like A Person. To acknowledge how she feels and to treat her like someone of value like he did Seven Red Suns.
You can argue: "He COULDN'T communicate!" And, in the Watsonian sense, this works, but externally, there's no reason this choice Had to be made. Mr. Primate was not holding a gun to the MSC team and forcing them to not let Pebbles communicate back to Moon. And we see them play Dominos post-credits, so one would ASSUME they are capable of communicating in some fashion. And the fact we don't get to SEE this makes Moon's issues feel unresolved --- she starts Downpour by minimizing herself and putting Pebbles' feelings and needs above her own, and she ends it doing nearly the same thing. To be fair, she does take action by forcing a Broadcast --- so why don't we see this rewarded? Why does she have to do all of the emotional legwork? Why doesn't Moon get to be comforted?
It's not enough to see her get her Facility restored; we already saw Moon come back to life in Hunter! See here:
LTTM Dialogue - Returning after placing the Rarefaction Cell (Rivulet) Ah! Sleek little one... Did you do this? I feel as if pulled out of a deep sleep. I am still trying to process all of this. It has been so long since I've had a connection like this with my structure. Everything has restarted in maintenance mode... It seems that it has sent out the order for all of my overseers to return. With my umbilical cord broken I can't operate my structure directly, but with them working as messengers I've been restoring some of my chamber's functionality! With any luck, I should be able to... Ah here we go! There is so much here... So much I've forgotten... I'll never be what I once was, but this... I'm sorry. Its hard to piece all of this together. So much has happened in my absence. I only have unread messages, and overseer recordings to make sense of what I've missed. Some of these are even from before my collapse! Incredible... Slag reset keys, a messenger, saving me? No Significant Harassment was never one to give up easy! However I still don't understand everything that has happened. Has it all just been coincidence? Did others send help as well? Then there is Five Pebbles. He was sick even before I collapsed, and his state must have only deteriorated since. It looks like he is barely breathing. If there is any part of him left... I... We were once good friends, despite everything that has happened. He is probably alone and afraid now... If Rivulet spoke to Five Pebbles at any point "I cannot run away from my mistakes forever; Please understand." Five Pebbles, what have you done... I've been given so much already, and now you've given all you had left. It does not matter what happened between us. If he still held the same anger he once did, then none of this would be possible. We've been given the chance to make things right, and he deserves to know what he did wasn't pointless. I'm so thankful, for everything.
She's narrating everything that's happening to us like she's reading a summary off the Wiki. She only gets emotional at the end when she worries about Five Pebbles --- which is fair, but you'd think she'd have more to say than that! Does she not hold NSH dearly in her heart? Does she not miss him? Does she not mourn all the communications they've missed?
There's so much about Moon we just don't get to see, and that's a very bad thing for a straightforward narrative like Downpour. I wish she had the depth she was portrayed with in the base game.
Let me bring the "original" recovery to contrast with: (hopefully my final dialogue quote ^^;;)
Moon Dialogue - Hunter Encounter He... hello Hello little... creature. You... you did this? One moment. My memory isn't responding. I... I have no idea... ...must have been gone for... ... Oh. Little creature... You are not well. I am so sorry to say, but you do not have much time left. If things are as they seem... thank you. I don't know why you spent your... last... remaining cycles helping me. But know that I am deeply grateful. I have known very few beings who could aspire to such a noble thing. You really are... an amazing little creature. I wish I could say I will always remember it. ... Little friend. Perhaps you already know this, and I don't know what consolation it might bring, but... You will wake right back up again.
side note: I wanna re-dub this someday, to do this scene justice. It means so, so much to me. Hunter will always have a special place in my heart.
This is beautiful. It's truly profound, and it's something I hope I never forget. Her speech to Hunter is so heartfelt, and her struggle to retain her memories, even for her most important moments, breaks my heart --- but as someone who has (much much lesser) memory issues myself, it also brings me comfort. Moon is struggling, but even in her weakness, she can bring comfort to a creature that's given her a gift so great it cannot be put into words.
You could say this about Rivulet, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like Moon is perfect and nice forever and is doing her Big Sister Moon thing --- And that's just not the same.
Closing Thoughts (No Differences Here)
This probably seems like a bleak note to end on --- my praise for Hunter does not sew back the gashes I've torn into Downpour with my critiques. But I'm going to try and end this on a more uplifting note.
Downpour is, at its core, a fan work. It was driven by people who loved Rain World and wanted to create something new with their favorite game, be that in gameplay, in story, in character-writing, etc... Its nature, first and foremost, is as a collection of Mods. As "More Slugcats Expansion" (MSC), to be exact. This in itself is often treated with scorn, but I don't understand why. It was never going to be Rain World 2. It was always going to be something different, and I don't think making it Basegame-Compliant would have made it better. I think that's become apparent, given the (for the purposes of this post) off-topic critiques I've indulged in throughout. But even in its flawed state, I think Downpour is still beautiful by nature of its existence. It is because it is a Mod, because it is a Fanfiction, and because it has been elevated to the status of DLC as an Official AU that it is so beautiful to me. If MSC can do it, why can't you?
Yes, obviously, your mod is probably not going to become the next DLC. I doubt it very much. But if MSC can receive recognition as an AU, does it not inherently give merit to all AUs by proxy? Does it not encourage people to create and to share their own transformative works?
I've seen so many wonderful fanworks that take things I don't have a strong attachment to / interest in (or even an aversion to!) and make them something that reaches my heart. There are so many beautiful pieces of art people have made from Downpour, and they cater to all sorts of fans. There is meaning that is formulated and constructed and transformed from what Downpour made, and even if I don't enjoy all of it, I appreciate that it exists. I'm glad that people continue to create things.
I owe thanks to Downpour for inspiring my own OC Stuff; I wouldn't have felt so emboldened to make my own AU had it not existed, and it has directly inspired some of the concepts I've used. I know this probably sounds overly sappy, especially given I can be quite razor-tongued (and flippant) about the subject. I'm a complex guy, okay? And it gets tiring hating all the time. Rest assured, my grievances are still there, and there are several fanworks I strongly dislike that carry over elements of Downpour. Some, I feel, are legitimately worth critique --- but I believe that would be better done indirectly through another essay than lambasting anyone in particular. I'd like to write a better-educated version of my Moon post someday, for instance. I want to write more Sociological essays about Rain World in general, both from an internal (in-universe) and an external (real-world influences and impact) perspective. That's off-topic, though.
My point is that I am by no means trying to pretend like I like everything or that anyone else should pretend to like everything, either. Though I do think it would help people to learn to avoid things a little more. But, above all, I want to encourage people to create the things they want to see. I've been trying to do that myself. I've also been trying to encourage other people to make things I like when I see it! You should, too.
OP ( @stalkiwirw ) Put it really well:
DP was mostly made by fanon, so if anything can fix it, it's fanon. and honestly, I've been seeing a lot of art, fics, or headcanons that really dwells deeper into the Iterators personalities, and it really shaped how I see them personally.
(sorry I wanted to get permission to include further quotes and that took a while. I also didn't know they had a tumblr. Thank you OP!!!!
This segment was inspired by their comment here!! Though it's also something I feel strongly about in general
Anyways, this whole section can probably be ignored if you're only here for the Post's practical use case as a guide to Characterization Differences. But I appreciate you reading this far if you did. Writing this was fun; I feel like I have a greater appreciation for Downpour's writing after doing it. I noticed a lot more things I liked or thought had potential than I remembered, and it's nice to be more informed on Downpour Lore, since I've always been less-informed on it than Vanilla. And, to take a step back, it's not like the Base Game disappears in Downpour (the campaigns are still mostly there!) so I think it's understandable for people not to see this if they're not well-acquainted with the two games as distinct entities. I know I sure wasn't when I first started. But, also, Vanilla will always be there. Even if you're just interested in the Lore, the miraheze Wiki neatly separates the two, so you can read up on either pretty easily! I recommend checking out the links I put in here. Browsing the dialogue is fun, and you might find some new material for analysis. I'll stop yapping now.
I hope this was meaningful to someone out there. It was to me.
