You said: Hakkai and Shiro are other examples of characters called āmom-friendā.
--I can see Hakkai being the āmom-friendā, though I wasnāt involved in the fandom long enough to really notice it. Iām not into Voltron enough to know much about Shiro as a āmom-friendā, but Iāve never thought of him in that way, because I always see him shipped with Allura, and I donāt think Iāve ever seen a straight-shipped person referred to as āmomā or ādadā (whichever is opposite to their gender), though my not having seen it means little.
That leads me to ask, do you find the āmom-friendā trope equally harmful to both male and female characters? Or is it specifically to male characters, for likening them to a stereotypical female? If so, does that... apply also to female characters referred to as ādad-friendā? (Again, something I havenāt really seen, but Iām sure it happens.)
(And what about real people referring to themselves as āmom-friendā?)
You said: The trope glorifies the existence of damaging gender roles.
-- I donāt have much more to say to this than is covered in the next section.
You said: male character shows empathy and is then likened to the feminine, and that reflects toxic masculinity. Suddenly he doesnāt fit the male image, but instead has to be somewhat feminine. This kind of attitude stops men from expressing their emotions.
-- I agree, empathetic male characters are often reduced to being feminine, which is obviously not good because any reasonable person knows men should be allowed to express emotion, etc. Saying that he suddenly doesnāt fit the male image... Ā I guess Iām a littttle unclear about that one. I get it, I think? But to me that seems to depend largely on what the reader/whatever thinks āthe male imageā means. I get that the standard or stereotypical male image is... well, you know how it is, but I guess Iām seeing a little bit of a disconnect in these points. Empathetic --> feminine. Sure, I see that. Kind of arbitrary, like most gender stuff, but sure. Feminine --> not male. I... see that, but I donāt feel it, I suppose. I donāt know why guys canāt have feminine traits. I see that itās a common thought though. And then, I guess what youāre saying is that if men feel that showing empathy makes them girly, they wonāt do it? I understand that. But to me that seems like a problem with menās disdain for femininity, so, like... to me it feels like the problem is not just that empathy = feminine, but that feminine = bad.
(Ultimately, I donāt think weāre disagreeing here, itās just some of the finer points which are a bit foggy, particularly regarding how we ought to deal with that toxic masculinity. To over-simplify it: you suggest that we stop referring to empathy as feminine. (Not an unreasonable solution.) I suggest that we help men realize itās okay to beĀ āfeminineā (whatever that means). (Hopefully also not an unreasonable solution.) Both rely a little heavily on semantics, which means by my own rules I should stop arguing about it.)Ā
You said: using this trope often makes writers reduce a character to stereotypes.
-- I canāt really disagree with this at all. Thatās certainly true, although it will depend largely on the writerās skill, and the readerās interpretation. I hope Iām above it, but that would be for my readers to decide.Ā
((The following paragraph is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of your original post, but Iām leaving it anyway. If itās NOT a misunderstanding and that is infact what you meant, please let me know.))Ā
You said: mom-friend/dad-friend ships create an unhealthy power imbalance.
-- I guess I donāt see this one at all. I donāt know if I just donāt understand what you mean, or if itās a difference in my perception. Who in this case has the upper hand? The āmomā because they are the overbearing one? Or the ādadā because men have more power? Iām not a parent yet, but I am a married woman, and Iāve never thought of āmom/dadā as having a power imbalance. It... doesnāt make sense to me. Iām really tilting my head at this one. I just feel like you made a huge leap between āmom/dadā ships and abuse, and I feel like Iām really missing something.
Okay, unless I misunderstood you entirely and what you meant was that āmomā character (OR ādadā character) is often shipped with āchildā character which is inherently abusive??? Now that I can see, definitely. To me thatās not even something I think about because I practically never ship those kinds of ships.
See now, the first time I read this post, I was coming at this section from an entirely different viewpoint, but now I think I see what you mean, particularly using Gladio/Prompto as an example. I get that, with Gladio being accepted as a ādadā character, and Prompto typically being a āchildā character. Right. I donāt like the ship much myself, although I suppose it could be okay if they did away with the representation of the characters as ādadā and āchildā. *shrug*
So, one of your problems with the āmom-friendā trope is that theyāre often shipped with āchild-friendā. I get that. I donāt like it either. But Iāve never considered that as being really relevant to the trope because itās not something I take part in. I guess I tend to think of āmom-friendā more in terms of like āhalf of a pair with dad-friendā than āhas any sort of specific relationship with child-friendā. (Even though, yeah, that is sort of the definition of a mom.)
You said: (and Iām quoting this time) Ā š³ āAdmire me?ā š³ Why would you do that? š³ Iām honestly a badly put together mess. Nothing to admire here. š
-- Oh psshaw. Of course I admire you. Youāre a good writer, youāre funny, and you seem like a good person, not to mention clearly intelligent! And on a fandom level, I feel like youāve put more detailed thought into a lot of things (FFXV-related, especially), so I feel itās only natural to defer to you in regards to these.
You said: Does the way I write Ignis fall into any of the pitfalls you described? Ā (does he get feminised or appear weak for being caring? does he come across as more nagging and annoying than in canon? does he respect other charactersā agency and autonomy or not? and if not, is it acknowledged as problematic at some point in the story? etc.).
--- Honestly: I donāt know entirely. I mean, I can look at them individually:
Ā -- Appear weak for being caring: no, I donāt think so
Ā -- More nagging or annoying than canon: maybe, but if so itās because of the circumstances in the AU.
Ā -- Respect othersā agency and autonomy: to a degree that I think is warranted by the circumstances.
Ā -- If not, is it acknowledged? : I plan to acknowledge his lapses in ārespecting othersā agencyā. (Though I havenāt written nearly that far. Thatās end-of-story stuff and woah am I ever not close to that yet.)
BUT!!!
Ā -- Is he feminised? : This I donāt know, because I donāt know whatās considered feminised. If he is, I donāt think itās because he is caring.
I like your suggestions that he could assess his own identity in regards to masculinity, but Iām not sure Iāll touch on that much in this particular story... Well actually, I probably will a little, but I imagine heāll push it aside as being unimportant in comparison to.. the other stuff thatās happening. *shugs loosely* tbh Iām still in the planning process of anything past the first 1/10th.
THANKS very much for writing this post, and being open to discussing things like this. After my first read-through of it, I was fairly stressed because I thought we were disagreeing a lot, but the process of writing a response has (I think) given me a better understanding of what you wrote. Now, it seems that we may actually agree more than I originally thought, and hopefully weāll be able to explain any remaining differences. (If youāre interested.)Ā
<3Ā
