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Those selfship blogs who are all "NEUTRALS DNI!!!!!! 🤢🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬" piss me off. Like, God forbid someone wants to stay out of the proship vs antiship drama and just have a good time with their f/o ig 🙄
When people are like “omg you LIKE (insert media)??? So you’re just OKAY with the undertones of misogyny/homophobia/racism/ableism/transphobia/classism/etc present in it?” It’s just like… No, I’m not? Because I’m fully critical of all the media I engage with, including media I like or even love? I don’t watch the shows I like with my brain turned off, and I can like aspects of a piece of media and still be willing to say “they were completely in the wrong for how they handled (X issue)”.
If you come at me with this attitude, though, I’m gonna have to assume you’re just projecting onto me because if YOU like a piece of media YOU ignore or deny or excuse everything genuinely bigoted or otherwise harmful about it. Just because you think like this doesn’t mean everyone else does, btw.
Some of y’all really need to realize that ALL media is “problematic” to a degree because no media is made in a vacuum and all media that exists is made under a society in which patriarchy, racism, ableism, etc are still deeply engrained. You should be critical of ALL the media you consume, instead of trying to separate all existing media into a deeply unhelpful binary of “problematic” or “unproblematic”.
I doubt anybody but myself has noticed, which is genuinely fine because I don't have a ton of followers, but I both post and reblog very infrequently on this blog at this point, and when I do, it's uncommon for it to be about transandrophobia specifically nowadays.
There's a reason for this.
Transmisogyny has taken root in the tag, and has been growing. In bloggers like @/transandrophobiaexpose, @/britts-galaxy-brain, and @/crippled-peeper. But also just in the random posts nodding to the use of sex-assignment to analyse privilege (this is also intersexism), the posts encouraging people to pick apart transfems' words for supposed hidden bigotry, the endless comments about how transandrophobic transfems all come from 4chan, and an unfortunate clusterfuck more. There's been no better time and place than the present transandrophobia tag for TIRFs to find the evidence they've been itching to get for ages of "transandrophobia theory is inherently anti-transfeminist."
The god damned shipping discourse. Are we really saying with our whole chests that "antishippers are as fascist as TERFs"? Are we actually out here saying "somebody's fictional shipping interests makes them a predator, #transandrophobia?" I've seen so many callouts and arguments lately that just boil down to stupid fiction preferences.
The kink-negativity. I don't think any of you actually even support forcemasc for what it is. It's not just, "omigosh, it's so fun and valid to be masculine," it's a kink about forcefully drawing out the masculinity in people. The original problem with ISFF's gimmick was not the fucking kink, it's the way she went crusading with it. If so many here can't understand that, then of course I'm constantly hearing outcry for, "they said they don't care what grown adults consent to behind closed doors 😱!"
Truthfully, I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of the issues crusting atop the discourse. But I tried. And honestly, I feel like no matter what I critique here and how, it won't do much of anything.
So many more significant people have openly spoken about facets of this shit in far more depth.
transfemme-shelterdog, naga-noia, yourfriendlyfayeking, intersex-transfem-positivity (I really hope fae is doing better now), and many more... If they couldn't turn this around, I'm certain that I can't. And this shit has scared 3/4 of the people I just mentioned away from these discussions, which.... Yeah.
But it's not like I can't air out my grievances anyways. So, there.
(Well. I made it this far. I suppose I'll be posting this.)
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Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
(PT: Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things)
(Trigger warning: This post discusses multiple sensitive topics, including abuse, bullying, bigotry and suicide. Reader discretion *heavily* advised)
I've finally gotten around to this post and I'll admit I can already smell the hostility. Just some disclaimers: This post isn't me commenting on the morality of certain media or ships, nor is it me commenting on whether or not fiction affects reality. This is only to talk about the damage this kind of discourse has done to fandom.
I am going to warn you: This is *not* a post full of kindness. I am not going to be nice. This post is going to be a bit mean. No. Very mean. Sorry about that.
So, TL;DR: Both sides have a harassment problem, and neither side wants to address the issues their communities have, leading to fandom becoming an unsafe environment.
So uh, I don't think I need to write a witty introduction here. The current state of fandom is rancid. Harassment has become a giant fucking problem lately.
So what's the problem? The problem lies in one thing: 'Proship' vs 'Antiship' discourse.
"Shadow, what the fuck do those words mean?"
Proship used to mean that you supported all ships, all forms of fiction, and that you were against harassing anyone who was involved in fandom, as well as against censorship. 'Anti', or 'antiship', meant that you were against some forms of fiction and shipping, mainly ones involving minors or incest.
Now you might've noticed that I used the phrase "used to" and the word "meant". That's because both terms kinda got new definitions and became buzzwords, with proship turning into a synonym for 'problematic shipper' (the term 'darkship' eventually came around to distinguish the two apart from my understanding, but uh...as you can see it hasn't helped much!). On top of that, people use the word 'proship' as a verb or type of content rather than an actual stance (ie. 'proshipping', 'proship content', 'proship artstyle', you get the idea).
However that's not the main point here. Let's cut to the chase now; both sides fucking hate each other; we'll make that clear, with both sides throwing vile accusations towards one another.
However, the more I looked into the swamp, the more distrust I gained for both sides. Something was bothering me, but what?
I tried to do a survey; two of them in fact, to see which side was more hostile. Unfortunately, neither survey gave me a lot of useful results, considering I got very little responses from the anti side (So uh, thanks for nothing on that end guys. /nm).
The written responses did give one common theme: Fandom has a problem. A problem with harassment, bullying, creeps and bigotry.
The antis are particularly horrible when it comes to this. I'm going to start this off by saying that I actually used to consider myself an 'anti' due to my discomfort with noncon and incest. And unfortunately, I was pretty fucking hostile to others (although I never sent death threats, fuck anyone who does that shit). I eventually stopped associating with the 'anti' side when I saw how rampant the ableism was- more on that later. 'Antis' have caused severe harm to fandom, and I don't really understand how anyone can deny that.
However, I am pretty fucking tired of everyone pretending that the 'proship' side is the good side. I know the 'proship' side isn't going to like hearing this, but it needs to be said: You guys are *just* as guilty as 'antis' when it comes to being toxic. And I'm not saying that because of the pro-incest stuff or the minor/adult pairings. I'm saying that many 'proshippers' are way too comfortable with being creepy towards others, and the community that claims to be 'anti-harassment'... isn't all that anti-harassment!
Here are just some of the written responses I got from the survey:
Here's one alibi from an anonymous user who submitted to the @selfship-confession-box account (pls let me know if you dont want to be tagged)
Another anon that was submitted to the @proship-anti-discussion account
Lastly, here's some of the replies and reblogs to a post talking about an 'ex-proshipper' that left the community due to negative experiences (the OP of said post and the 'ex proshipper' in question did eventually apologize to each other, so I'll cut both of them some slack. I'm only showing the responses because holy fuck are they rancid).
So yeah. So much for the 'proship' community being "anti-harassment" and inclusive to SA and grooming survivors.
Now, to the 'anti' side. I will say, the 'proshippers' got one thing right, and that's the fact that 'antis' very much fucking suck. And remember when I said that 'proshippers' were hypocrites? Well, 'antis' are also that. They talk so much about protecting "sa survivors" and how "proshippers are bigoted". But what do the written responses say about this?
and let's not forget *this*
I also want to bring up this comment about the term 'proship artstyle' that I thought was worth mentioning:
In other words... 'antis' aren't as great to hang around either!
Now, there's one particular issue I really want to zero in on, and that's the rampant ableism from both sides. As one of the above written responses say, there is a huge problem of 'antis' and 'proshippers' misusing words like 'psychotic' and 'delusional'. The r-slur is also pretty rampant, I've noticed.
Still don't believe me? Okay. Here's a more recent example from an anonymous 'anti' I came across (ironically enough this came up when I searched "proship ableism". Also. fatphobia too? pick a struggle anon)
And that's not even getting into the amount of 'antis' who weaponize the saying "seek help" or "go to therapy".
Now, let's go back to the terms supposed original meanings, particuarly the meaning for 'proshipper'. That term was supposed to mean that you were against censorship and harassing people for fiction and ships, and that you didn't judge people for liking certain ships. Meanwhile, 'antis' were supposedly about wanting to get rid of problematic media that could be harmful to minors and SA survivors.
But it's time to be honest: Both sides have lost the plot.
How am I supposed to believe either side is "anti-harassment" when neither side knows how to respect boundaries? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about SA survivors when you have both sides constantly speaking over said survivors and also harassing them? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about minors when there's been individuals on both sides, yes, including the so called "antis" that "care so much about protecting children uwu", that were outed as groomers? How am I supposed to believe either side is the good side when you have things like this happening:
The last thing I take issue with? The terms "proship" and "anti" as a whole, as well as every single similar term that's come out of this mess.
While I do genuinely believe these terms were probably helpful in the past, it's clear that they're not doing any good whatsoever. Both terms have had their original meanings muddied and twisted to the point where they basically have no meaning at all, and the terms existing have created a massive "us vs them" mentality within fandom.
There's also the issue of both sides forcing labels on others. I've seen posts that are all "if you believe x, congrats you're a proshipper!" or "if you believe y, you're an anti!". As well as anyone identifying as 'neutralship' (a label I also used to identify with before I stopped associating with these labels entirely) being called a "closet proshipper" or an "anti in disguise".
Personally? If you have to force people to pick a side in order for you to trust them, I don't see why I should trust you. If you have to rely on labels like "proship", "anti", "anti-anti", "anti-harassment", "anti-censorship" to come across as a safe person or a good person, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to see you as a good person.
You might be wondering why I included the "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" labels in that. Well, I'm going to be honest, and you are welcome to disagree with me on this, but I feel like these terms are so fucking unnecessary. Being "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" is the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM, a bare minimum that neither side can truly follow. Also, calling yourself "anti-harassment" doesn't automatically make me believe that. Especially when it's been proven time and time again that 'proshippers', the side believed to be 'anti-harassment', isn't all that 'anti-harassment' at all!
Now I know what you're thinking at this point; you're thinking that I condone harassment because I'm going after both sides. You're thinking that I don't give a damn about the death threats that 'antis' have sent.
No. No. No. That is not what I'm saying. And honestly, if *that's* the message you're getting, I don't know what to tell you.
So no, I'm not saying harassment is good or okay (and if that's the message you got from reading the above... I genuinely do not know what to tell you). I'm saying that you don't deserve a medal or a cookie for not sending death threats or being against people who send death threats, when it's literally the BARE MINIMUM. The bar is in fucking hell at this point. And as it's been shown, neither "proshippers" nor "antis" are truly anti-harassment. Me not liking 'proshippers' doesn't automatically mean I'm okay with sending them death threats, and me not liking 'antis' doesn't make me okay with abuse. And it sure as fucking hell doesn't mean that I don't care either.
Because guess what? I do fucking care. It's why I'm fucking making this post in the first place. I shouldn't have to identify as "proship" or "anti" or any other labels to tell you that I care. Me refusing to use a label doesn't mean I'm apathetic to all the harm that's happened. And I sure as hell am not condoning harassment by refusing to hold hands with individuals who can't even bother to respect each other's boundaries.
And honestly? If you interpret "I don't support proshippers *or* antis because they both made fandom toxic and unsafe" as "I condone sending death threats and rape threats", that's kind of on you.
Here's a simple message I have for anyone who calls themselves "proship" or "antiship", and I am going to be especially mean here:
Stop pretending to brand yourselves as the good guys when all you've done is break boundaries, talk over abuse survivors and marginalized groups. Stop being hypocrites, and actually address the issues within your goddamn communities. And stop downplaying said issues by saying "BUT THIS SIDE IS WORSE!" or "BUT THEY DO IT TOO!". Also, stop forcing people to use your dumb labels. Literally all of this could be fucking solved with using the block buttons or report buttons. There is no reason for this stupid fucking infighting. You don't have to like each other, fuck no, but quit dragging those who aren't involved into your messes and ruining fandom for everyone.
To "antis": Quit pretending to care about SA survivors and minors when you're the ones sending them death threats (And maybe address the fucking groomers within your community too, by the fucking way).
To "proshippers": Stop being a dick to people who have had negative experiences with your community, stop ignoring the bigotry and stop letting in predators within your community.
Now lastly, I know I said I wasn't going to comment on stances, but I do want to say this because it's also very much fucking bothering me. I hate how this discourse just boils down to either "Fiction DOESN'T affect reality at all, it's 100% okay to support ANY kind of media/ship/pairing no matter how problematic it is, and if you disagree with that you're a fascist!" or "Actually supporting ANY kind of media that's problematic and/or depicts so and so is BAD and if you support that you're a horrible human being! And if you disagree with me you're just as bad!"
Have you guys perhaps, I don't know: Considered a fucking middle ground? Have you maybe considered nuanced discussions? How about that?
Okay, I'm done being mean. In fact, I actually don't have much else to say so here's a video that talks about it a little more nicer than I do
*Sigh* I'm going to regret posting this, aren't I?
Today is Friday, n usually I post Friday night Funkin things but I don’t wanna wait until my Neuship Tuesday 2 post abt this. I’m not adding the darkship dni blinker cuz just for this post I want darkshippers to reblog so this reached their commuinity.
recently I found this.
You’re prolly wondering wtf is a consang n wtf is a radqueer so (TW for incest, CSA, corpse abuse and bestiality mention)
So I wanna say this is disgusting, I’m not a proshipper but I know the darkship commuinity is full of ppl who’ve use it as a coping mechanism. So irl defenders invading their safe space where traumatised people they use fiction as an outlet is so horrible and disgusting.
If you treat real CSA cases like they’re lolli-shota con mangas,
if you treat real animal abuse cases like they’re some animal x human smut fics,
if you treat real corpse defiling cases like they’re edgy dead dove do not eat ao3 aus,
if you treat real inbreeding like it’s milf stepmom hentai,
you’re not just a “proshipper” or a “freak” you’re just a disgusting degenerate.
being proship and profiction means supporting the freedom to explore whatever topics however you want because you believe fiction doesn’t impact reality. I’m not fully proship and even I know that.
so lemme say again- proshippers think darkshipping is fine because they believe it DOESNT IMPACT REALITY. So odviously, they believe ITS BAD IN REALITY. So irl defenders don’t belong in the proship commuinity. “B-b-but you’re not a proshipper!! You’re not a freak like me of course you don’t accept me!!” Buddy I can say confidently if more proshippers read your tags before liking, you’d lose 90% of the support this post got. Alright? Proshippers think you’re disgusting cuz proshippers have common sense.
I usually don’t put proship tags except proship safe but I’m adding a bunch of proship tags on this cuz this needs attention from proshippers since that inbreeding freak is more likely to interact with proshippers. Please block and report them.
