#laurielawrence

Niina: You know I was thinking about that earlier today, that the way Jo collects these boys around her, she is like Wendy and the lost boys.

Melodie: Her lost boys. Exactly! and I was thinking about you know the way she interacts with Laurie in this chapter, she is like cradling him practically and touching his hair. It makes me think of this mother-type figure, that is not a real mother. It is a child pretending to be a mother. To this boy who pretends basically to be a man. So that made me think, this is like Peter Pan and Wendy and of course Peter Pan, it was first a play and then it became a novel, but it wasn’t written, until the beginning of 1900s. So it’s like 40 years after Little Women basically so then I started thinking, ”I wonder if JM Barrie was influenced by Louisa May Alcott at all” because between the relationship that Laurie and Jo have to the next book where, Jo has this group of these boys, so I did a search and what I found on a google search was that somebody had actually made their thesis on a similar idea. Thesis was written by someone named Leah Marie Kirkpatrick and it was titled ”Hidden Kisses, Walled Gardens and Angel Kinder” ”A story of Victorian and Edwardian conductions of motherhood and childhood in Little Women, in Secret Garden and Peter Pan”. So if someone else has had these similar ideas then I must be on to something. Now, I only just found this today so I have not read it yet because it is 148 pages long.

Niina: All right.

It’s a thesis but I thought how interesting because it seems like her main point is the idea how in this era, both ideas of childhood and motherhood are an angelic sort of situation. You become a saint like a mother. You are an angel as a child. This kind of a celebration of innocence within both of these ideas but, I think it is something to look at more. The idea is that in a way Laurie and Jo are kinds of a Peter and Wendy situation.

Niina: That is super interesting. I was talking in an earlier episode with somebody who said that when Jo takes care of Beth, she almost has a maternal relationship with Beth. She is almost Beth’s secondary mother as well.

Melodie: I think that is one of those things too I feel like, something that Louisa May Alcott is totally right is your state of mind at different ages. Aren’t they in their early twenties at this point or late teens?

Niina: Early twenties I think.

Melodie: So they are in that age where they maybe wouldn’t normally just yet, just say their mind. They are tweaking around each other doing a dance ”Oh I feel this way. I feel this way” versus if they were 10 years older, instead of running away she would have already told him ”Hey, I’m not interested in you like that”.

Niina: I don’t think I ever thought about that. Yeah, I can see that.

Melodie: It’s just like how we have talked before about how Laurie’s love for Jo is immature love and again it totally fits the age that he is at. It’s not that is who he is complete as a person, because by the time when he asks Amy to marry him. He is not the same person, because he is grown up some and the fact that Louisa May Alcott could so exactly portray the inner world workings of these people to fit the real ages they are, that is one of those things that I think is the very understated thing about her as a writer. She really does capture the way we think when we are at these different ages.

Niina: The transcendentalists had this thing, Louisa was encouraged to write her inner thoughts all the time when she was younger. She had to collect all her thoughts and memories. Well..she didn’t have to do that, but she was encouraged to do it. Then you learn to know about yourself and that was part of their faith. I think you can see a lot of that in Little Women because you can read so much about the character’s inner worlds.

Melodie: Yes. I agree.

Evening meditation and morning work somewhat allayed her fears, and having decided that she wouldn’t be vain enough to think people were going to propose when she had given them every reason to know what her answer would be, she set forth at the appointed time, hoping Teddy wouldn’t do anything to make her hurt his poor feelings. A call at Meg’s, and a refreshing sniff and sip at the Daisy and Demijohn, still further fortified her for the tete-a-tete, but when she saw a stalwart figure looming in the distance, she had a strong desire to turn about and run away.

Niina: This part that ”she had given him every reason to know what her answer would be” really got into me. She has given him multiple reasons that she is not into him.

Melodie: Yes. As an adult reading this scene, I don’t see how people are still wanting her to say yes and really I don’t see how Laurie, still ends up being people’s favourite character, that is not a sister.

Niina: I think it is the adaptations.

Melodie: Oh you are probably right because we did a poll in the Little Women book club and first we did a poll on who is your favourite sister and of course, Jo in a landslide won and then we did a poll on who is your favourite character who isn’t one of the sisters and Laurie won by double that another runner up, but at least the other runner up was Friedrich. I am happy about that but like really overall, Laurie got more votes than Jo got from both of the poles.

Niina: Interesting. In the 2019 film, Laurie has no flaws. They have all been erased.

Melodie: Well…his costuming.

Niina: That one yeah..

Melodie: It bugs me so much because I feel like in general, he did a pretty good job, but the costuming really did him no justice because when he is supposed to be a grown-up, especially in that proposal scene, he looks like he’s got a full diaper or something, his drawers are so loose like, he looks like a child who has a diaper that needs to be changed.

Niina: Somebody who was a Jo and Laurie shipper said to me that Friedrich was a terrible bully in the 2019 film. Laurie was always kind to Jo.

Melodie: Interesting. I didn’t think that Friedrich came out as a bully. I think they made a mistake by not casting someone German. I think they made a mistake by casting somebody who is too conventionally handsome. People get so wrapped up in the idea when they think that Jo and Laurie should have been together. If they actually read the book, they must not have much reading comprehension.

Niina: I think they got really defensive like they were on Jo’s side when Jo said that Friedrich was a terrible bully, so they identified with Jo. I don’t know why, because in the book Jo and Friedrich don’t argue.

Niina: It was really confusing once you have Jo saying that she wants to be alone, then she is lonely. Then she says that she is in love with Friedrich and then she suddenly wants Laurie back. I had no idea what was going on. What was going on in Jo’s head?

Melodie: It’s like they wanted to take a story, that just is this beautiful story that has a lot of heart and turn it into something artsy. That is not what the story is. It just didn’t work. I know you agree. The whole idea behind it didn’t work.

Niina: I just like to complain about it.

Melodie: I always try to remind myself that with things like this, I didn’t like it but there is someone who did. so maybe that film was for them and maybe that film will then be the gateway to them to watch the one that will actually be better or maybe to read more of the books or any of the books because, I mean there are Little Women fans who have not read the books, who just like watching the movies. We have some people like that in the book club. All they are interested in are the movies. I understand that. There are some real books that I haven’t read but I have seen the movies but for the most part, if there is a movie that I think is good, I try to read the book first but if I don’t then I read the book later, but I am also a big bookworm.

Laurie was a young lover, but he was in earnest and meant to ‘have it out, if he died in the attempt, so he plunged into the subject with characteristic impetuosity, saying in a voice that would get choky now and then, in spite of manful efforts to keep it steady…

“I’ve loved you ever since I’ve known you, Jo, couldn’t help it, you’ve been so good to me. I’ve tried to show it, but you wouldn’t let me. Now I’m going to make you hear, and give me an answer, for I can’t go on so any longer.”

“I wanted to save you this. I thought you’d understand…” began Jo, finding it a great deal harder than she expected.

“I know you did, but the girls are so queer you never know what they mean. They say no when they mean yes, and drive a man out of his wits just for the fun of it,” returned Laurie, entrenching himself behind an undeniable fact.

Melodie: When I read this the other day, this made me mad.

Niina: I have a red flag drawn to this part.

Melodie: Yes! It is such a red flag and you know I’m like I didn’t realize that this notion that when women say no, they mean yes, that it was such an old idea and the fact that it says he was trenching himself behind an undeniable fact. How is that an undeniable fact? I don’t know a single woman, who says no when they mean yes. If he knew Jo, he’d know that is not how she is either. That is why he keeps going.

Niina: I think we talked about this earlier how there are so many examples in the media about guys who behave like this.

Melodie: Yes, I know we talked about the Notebook. The Notebook, it always makes me crazy when people are like ”it’s such a romantic movie”. I haven’t read the book. I have only seen the movie but you know, the scene where he is hanging on the Ferris Wheel and threading to kill himself essentially if she won’t go on a date with him. That is not romantic. That is abuse. That’s manipulation but I think already back then there were a lot of men who think that that is a romantic gesture, when really all it is, is manipulation.

Niina: I’ve read the Notebook but it was maybe 15 years ago. I don’t think that scene was in it. Maybe it was only in the film? but I need to check that out. It is really troublesome in the movie and the way Edward stalks Bella in Twilight.

Melodie: Yes and you know the sad thing is like there we do buy the end of this stuff because I see all the problematic things in Twilight but I still like Twilight. I still like the books. I still like the movies but I wouldn’t want an Edward. You know I wouldn’t want him personally. I enjoy the films but it’s really not a good message.

Niina: I have only seen the first Twilight films. I see why a lot of young fans would like that and I can see why a lot of young readers like that in Laurie because you don’t have that experience yourself. If we would all imagine some guy saying that they are going to hurt themselves if we don’t go out with them, nobody is going to think that is romantic or sweet.

I kinda like this scene where she goes to see Daisy and Demijohn. It just shows once again that Jo really wants a family to herself.

Melodie: Think about how she creates her own large family with Plumfield. I feel like it is one of those examples of how some of the more modern explorations of Little Women, people try to make her like, just this like a career woman and all of that, you know what I mean and it’s like, there is nothing that was more important to Jo than her family. Her writing was secondary next to her family. It is an odd thing when people try to present her as only career driven. It is like, she is not career-driven. She is driven by family and art. Her writing is her art.

Niina: I think it’s the chapter All Alone, where the narrator says that she has sacrificed hopes of love and chances for her own family, for her career and other things, her health. She is not happy. That’s really sad.

Melodie: My name is Melodie Ellison. I am the founder of the Little Women book club on Facebook. I did not think that that would be so popular but it’s incredibly popular now especially. We have a whole lot of new members. When I am not posting there or commenting there or just being an admin in general, I am a writer and an actor. I have a book that is called ”Rachel and the mighty arm that built Egypt”. You can find it on Amazon. Right now I am in the middle of rehearsals for Little Mermaid. That is my general life.

Niina: Is it Disney’s Little Mermaid?

Melodie: Yes! I play chef Lous. The psychotic French chef.

(laughter)

Niina: That’s great.

Melodie: Yeah, it’s going to be fun.

Niina: I know that you’v done some of your own research on Louisa May Alcott. You know a lot about her as well.

Melodie: I know more than the average Little Women fan, but I certainly don’t know anything compared to yourself. I’m still in the book club ”you guys have to check out this podcast. You learn something. Even if you think you know a lot, you are going to learn something from it.

Niina: Thanks. I’ll do my best.

Melodie: I always like to know the whys of things. You know and that is how I pretty end up learning more about Louisa May Alcott than the average person because I’m like why did she make this choice and it’s like a lot of the stuff you’ve pointed out. A lot of it comes down to her own upbringing and her exposure to Germanic type writings. There is a lot there.

Niina: Then I was thinking about what you just said, Laurie, he is like Peter Pan because Peter Pan doesn’t want to grow up. In Peter Pan, Wendy, even though she likes the idea of being a child, she also wants to grow up. She also wants to know what it is like to be an adult and I think they even refer to adulthood as ”another adventure”.

“Where’s the jew’s-harp, Jo?” cried Laurie, as soon as he was within speaking distance.

“I forgot it.” And Jo took heart again, for that salutation could not be called lover-like.

She always used to take his arm on these occasions, now she did not, and he made no complaint, which was a bad sign, but talked on rapidly about all sorts of faraway subjects, till they turned from the road into the little path that led homeward through the grove. Then he walked more slowly, suddenly lost his fine flow of language, and now and then a dreadful pause occurred. To rescue the conversation from one of the wells of silence into which it kept falling, Jo said hastily, “Now you must have a good long holiday!”

“I intend to.”

Something in his resolute tone made Jo look up quickly to find him looking down at her with an expression that assured her the dreaded moment had come, and made her put out her hand with an imploring, “No, Teddy. Please don’t!”

“I will, and you must hear me. It’s no use, Jo, we’ve got to have it out, and the sooner the better for both of us,” he answered, getting flushed and excited all at once.

“Say what you like then. I’ll listen,” said Jo, with a desperate sort of patience.

Niina: Jo is deadly afraid at this point.

Melodie: Sure. Little Women part 2. Chapter 35 ”Heartache”

Whatever his motive might have been, Laurie studied to some purpose that year, for he graduated with honour, and gave the Latin oration with the grace of a Phillips and the eloquence of a Demosthenes, so his friends said. They were all there, his grandfather—oh, so proud—Mr. and Mrs March, John and Meg, Jo and Beth, and all exulted over him with the sincere admiration that boys make light of at the time, but fail to win from the world by any after-triumphs.

Niina: So we have Laurie graduating and he is doing pretty good.

Melodie: Yes, he did really well. It kinda makes me sad sometimes when I look at this because to realize that he didn’t do it for himself. For the purpose of knowledge. He did it for Jo and for his grandfather and it’s like, yeah, you are happy for him that he obviously has learned a lot because he wouldn’t have been graduating with honours if he hadn’t been able to withhold information but at the same time it’s, it’s like..I don’t know, I guess as somebody who has a great love for learning it makes me sad to think that somebody wouldn’t learn just for the sake of wanting to learn, they would be doing it for someone else.

Niina: I just rewatched the 1978 version and there is that moment when he is in the billiard hall and the grandfather is like ”why you are not in school?” when he is skipping school. He still manages to study at some point I think.

Melodie: Yes. I think it was even maybe in somewhere this chapter that he talks about how he gave up billiards for Jo and I think it is one of those subtext things. It’s not talked about a lot in the book ”Oh he is so into billiards” ”he is so into these things that are maybe not good for his character because at the time billiards would have been considered a low type of thing to be involved with. She couldn’t¨t make him like an alcoholic or something that was going to be really bad. You know? So she gave him billiards and it’s still his fault.

Niina: In one of the earlier chapters in part 2 when Laurie is in college it is mentioned that he smokes, drinks, plays pool and flirts with girls. Something like that and then he always gets out of trouble, when he gets into fights and all the teachers like him even when he is not always the most responsible student because he is so charming. It is interesting. Laurie is an interesting character.