#ja meta

I 100% agree that we never saw an equal amount of Annie’s POV when it came to their relationship on the show. This is mainly due to the fact that Jeff was, pretty much, the main character. The show revolves around his journey for the most part, although the show did progress and give the characters a more even spread along the way, which is why we do see his incredible arc of growth. 

We know a lot about where Jeff stands with Annie and how he sees himself; he’s insecure and afraid of being vulnerable because he’s afraid of losing something that is important to him. He knows it would be painful and hard to fix if they started something and it didn’t work out because obviously, they mean something to each other. It’s not like what he’s experienced before and he’d rather stay safe and hold her at a distance than risk giving it a shot. 

However, from what’s stated in that post; Annie’s perspective is pretty easy to figure out even if it isn’t necessarily focused on directly in the show. We can tell she distanced herself in S6. She didn’t involve herself with Jeff as much; she joined in with jokes that poked at him; she was surrounded by Abed and Britta (especially as they all lived together). She didn’t tell him about DC etc. After Season 5, it makes sense. Seeing Jeff fall back into place with Britta hurt her which saw us see her let him go - “We have to let each other want what we want”.

With this, I agree that she wouldn’t jump straight in and take Jeff’s words as is, but I also believe she would understand them as something different to her previous experiences. 

Firstly, I think looking at his words is really important. Jeff doesn’t throw around words that actually have meaning to them very often or very easily and it’s not just to Annie either (”I don't believe in dibs, love at first sight, love, best friends or doing things”). Him saying the word heart is a pretty big deal ((even if the writers decided to soften the blow by talking about penises too)) and I think she would recognise that. 

She may have been distancing herself but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t know Jeff anymore or that she doesn’t understand how he’s changed or has been acting. I believe because of this, and her understanding the sincerity behind his words combined with the fact she’d been distancing herself, no, she wouldn’t jump straight in but I also don’t think she would just let him drop it. 

Something I often see within the J/A fandom, especially Post-S6 is the idea that they wouldn’t stay in touch during the summer. That quite frankly baffles me. I also think it is often forgotten that there was a week between the study room scene and her and Abed leaving at the airport. At the airport we clearly see Jeff kissing her goodbye nonchalantly. That’s different to a head pat. That’s different to any other way we’ve seen them interact before. It’s change; change of which happened during that week... 

Annie wouldn’t drop it and her doing so doesn’t mean she’s ready to step right in and bow down to him, it means that she’s ready to stand her ground and show him that if he’s really serious, he has to be. 

I’m also in agreement that Jeff wouldn’t be perfect in a relationship straight away. He does have problems and issues to face and he knows that too. He might not know exactly what he wants but we know for sure he wants it all with her. He loves her. He’s in love with her and I think because it was such a big moment, he wouldn’t let it go either. I can’t imagine that they would have left the study room without immediately talking or arranging to talk soon. Jeff’s put his cards on the table which for him, especially in S6, is a huge development. 

And although it may not seem like it without a clear cut version of Annie’s POV, we know she would understand the difference between then and now - in my opinion, anyway. 

This also takes me back to how people often presume they wouldn’t stay in touch over the summer. The summer would give them the perfect opportunity to think things through; it would give Jeff the time to think about what he really wants and what he needs to change. It would give Annie the time to take some time away and think about what she wants to whilst also staying in touch with Jeff to understand that he is still sticking to his word. I know for some people one example for Jeff is that he would go to AA during the summer (and of course carry on doing so).

In terms of the movie I presume it will be set a few years after Season 6. It would be natural anyhow as the cast age etc. If this is the case, I think they will be together already. It would be kind of sad to not see it happen but I also think, with all of what I have explained above, it would be out of character for them to take years to get together after the finale. 

I was also discussing this with @zacscottysnl and she brought up something I’ve mentioned in previous discussions; during the conversation in the study room, they explain what they want and although on the surface they make look like opposites, they’re actually at a perfect balance. Jeff wants to experience more (yet deep down he also wants to have a family and settle down, as we saw in his vision) and Annie wants to start slowing down and settling. She wants a home and so does Jeff but she also wants to start pushing forward in her career (with going to DC). They can have exactly what they want with each other... and when you mix their love into that - I can’t imagine them waiting that much longer. 

Finally, going back to the movie again; I once saw someone see the moment after their kiss in the study room as a private moment; the shot is zoomed out and you can’t see exactly where their hands are and I think that’s a lovely way to see it. Especially for shippers, their relationship was pretty heavily analysed (and I guess, still is, lmao) by not only the fans but also the characters within the show, so, for them to have their moment alone was really beautiful and I think it would be the same case with them getting together. We might hear of the story but we might not necessarily see it.

Lmao, I hope this is in some way coherent and understandable. I just needed to vent. I actually kinda’ miss discussing stuff in this fandom and something I’ve been wanting to bring up is the whole “losing touch over the summer” thing. 

They are both drunk off of gender-roles bullshit: Jeff is high on toxic masculinity, and Annie thinks a relationship/marriage will give a purpose to her existence.

I personally can’t agree that Jeff’s emotional problems come from gender roles... they come from personal experiences and abandonment issues which came from having a crappy upbringing with his dad. He believes that everyone will leave eventually and that he’s not worthy of love, because everyone has left eventually. His dad left, Pierce died, Troy left, Shirley moved, Abed left and of course Annie... his fear of everyone leaving him, came true... so he closes himself up, not because he’s afraid of not looking masculine and ‘tough’, but because he’s scared of what would happen to him if he went all in with something real. So yes, he’s afraid of being vulnerable, but not because he doesn’t think he should be - it’s because he knows he can be, he’s just fearful of what he thinks will always happen. 

A good way to look at this is with Britta in S2 - it was distraction from what was really going on with Annie during that season. It’s easy with Britta, because there’s no real emotional attachments. It’s friendship... there’s brotherly/sisterly love there, but there’s no real risk running for Jeff... whereas with Annie, he knows there’s something there (even if in the earlier seasons he doesn’t quite know what it is yet). He knows that if he opens himself up, there’s a risk that he might get hurt... the main reason for this, is because he believes he’s not good enough for Annie... so she’ll either move on and leave him behind (abandon him), or he’ll end up hurting her/making her realise she could be with someone better - not that he would/isn’t good for her, that is - it’s a fear. 

In fact - Jeff’s never really been afraid of not looking ‘typically masculine’ - I mean, look at all the goofy things he’s done throughout the series just for his friends? He performed in a Christmas musical performance, he cries at Horsebot 3000 and Chang’s performance in Karate Kid etc etc. 

In terms of Annie and thinking relationships are the be all and end all... again, I don’t think I can agree. I can see where you’re coming from, but again, it’s similar with Jeff - they both just want to know that they can be loved and that it will stick, so of course Annie would grab onto a relationship where she feels loved. She loves Jeff, and at times, she feels as if he might love her back, and she’s not wrong in doing so - because, he does. 

She stays emotionally available for him, and that often stops her from having her own love life and happiness

‘Well I’m gonna’ ask Rich out; there’s nothing complicated about that’ - That’s a line which proves that Jeff won’t stop her from having happiness. She won’t put up with Jeff pushing her around. She’s optimistic of course, because like I said, she wants to be loved, so she’s going to keep herself available to option where she feels as if she is loved, but that doesn’t actually stop her from being happy outside of it. She openly asks Jeff about their relationship several times over the series, because she needs to know for her own happiness. At the end of S5, she realises that (because she loves him) she’s happy if he’s happy, even if it’s with someone else. She’s ready to move on. She doesn’t depend on Jeff. She doesn’t let Jeff stop her from doing anything... 

...the dating, however... might actually be about other people and Jeff. In Cooperative Polygraphy, Shirley states that Annie calls Jeff her uncle to other students, which suggests that she’s trying to make it clear they aren’t romantically connected. Like you say, Annie doesn’t have a problem with the age gap, so its not really got anything to do with calling him it because he’s older - it’s to distance their relationship so other people don’t assume anything. The whole school knows about their Debate 109 kiss; Leonard was in the bushes at the end of S1; even the Dean points it out in S5. 

There’s a S3 deleted/alternative scene where Annie says she’s only been on 3 dates (don’t quote me on the specifics, I haven’t watched it in a while) at Greendale... and every time she’s had to pay. So she’s still dating and wants to be in a relationship outside of Jeff - it’s just that either everyone at Greendale is a fool, or they already think she’s with him. 

Six years later, he still lacks a lot of selflessness.

I’d like to compare Season 1 and Season 6 Jeff...

In Season 1, Jeff was pining over Britta. He literally did not leave her alone for the most part. He wanted to sleep with her and he made it very clear. He didn’t let her go. He was selfish; he wanted what he wanted. 

In Season 6, Jeff is pining/hopelessly in love with Annie. He doesn’t think he’s good enough for her. He’s afraid that she’ll abandon him like everyone else has. He believes in her future, and he knows she has potentional... he loves her. He doesn’t tell her, because he doesn’t want to hold her back. He let her go. He was selfless; he wanted what she wanted. 

Annie: Do you even know what I want? Jeff: … Yes?

Jeff asking himself this, isn’t him being selfish/not having thought about what she would want. Think about this for a moment - Jeff loves her so much, that he can’t even have a dream without thinking about the fact he doesn’t know what she wants. It’s not because he hasn’t thought about it - the fact that he’s thinking about it in his daydream, shows that he has thought about it and knows he doesn’t know. After she asks him the question - he states; ‘But whatever you want’. Jeff wants what someone else wants. Throughout the whole of S6, he put her happiness before his own. 

He let her go. He admitted that - just after imagining him telling her he loved her. Take a look at this gifset, and tell me that’s not selfless? Tell me that Jeff Winger of S1 would have done the same thing? 

Even before they kiss, he has to ask her if she’s okay with it. He needs to know that she’s happy, before he can let himself be happy too. 

He is not available for a relationship; they cannot work together, as a couple, unless he finally lets go of his fears, and deals with his own problems before he can be in a healthy relationship.

I agree with you on this simple statement on a small level - because yes, Jeff needs to work on his issues before their relationship can be perfect... but Annie knows that. Annie knows he has anxieties and fears. Annie knows what he’s been through to a certain extent, and has her own experiences too. She’d support him, just like she has in the past, and it would only make the start of their relationship stronger. 

Jeff Winger definitely has flaws: he’s lazy, he’s manipulative, he’s dishonest if it makes his life easier, he’s kind of a control freak, he can be very self-absorbed and selfish, he’s vain, he’s opportunistic. 

Some of his flaws become more understandable when you remember that Jeff’s father was abusive and neglectful and abandoned him and his mom when he was still very young. I headcanon that Jeff, like Joel McHale, is dyslexic and that it was never diagnosed, which could explain how someone so intelligent and quick to learn always struggled in a school setting. So he learned to protect himself early on with a cloak of sarcasm and indifference, and to hold people at arm’s length.

Also, as @catty-words​ pointed out in this excellent post, Jeff Winger is a mentally ill person. He was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, which apparently has gone unmedicated since his bad reaction to anti-anxiety meds in S3. (I personally believe Jeff uses his phone to disguise his anxiety, or keep it at bay, which is why he’s almost always on it in social situations where he doesn’t feel comfortable.) He seems to possibly have an eating disorder. He was clearly depressed during S5 and S6 (picture him in his failed law office as they took the furniture away), and even overdosed on alcohol and some kind of Korean youth pills and was in a serious coma as a result. He seemed to spend most of S6 self-medicating with a lot of alcohol, grieving the loss of three of his friends (Pierce, Troy, and Shirley) and terrified that the rest of his friends—his family—were going to abandon him too.

But this isn’t all there is to Jeff. He’s also smart and funny and clever, and willing to make a fool of himself to help a friend. He’s extremely creative and imaginative, and he thinks fast on his feet. He’ll admit when he’s wrong and sincerely apologizes if he’s hurt someone, and will go to great lengths to make amends. He can be very generous and kind, and even silly. He’s got a strong protective streak, especially when someone is being bullied. He cares deeply about his friends and would do almost anything for them. 

Jeff Winger has always been Annie Edison’s biggest cheerleader. He encourages her to go off-book and trust her instincts. He challenges her, just as she challenges him. He has so much faith in her, and her ability to do great things, and tells her and everyone else so. 

Jeff and Annie naturally gravitate towards each other and team up, whether it’s to solve a mystery or play D&D or lava joust or go skiing. They seem to genuinely enjoy each other’s company and just like doing stuff together. When they do clash, they always manage to talk it out and come to a better understanding. They’re sometimes each other’s fiercest competitors, but they also seem to intuitively get one other, in a way that doesn’t even require discussion. They often seem to be just a little bit kinder with each other than with anyone else, especially when one of them is feeling low or vulnerable.

What it comes down to, for me, is that Jeff loves Annie. He’s proud of her, he thinks the world needs more women like her, he doesn’t like seeing her in distress and tries to make it better for her when he can. He genuinely and truly loves her. He loves her so much that he can’t even dream about a life with her without thinking about how he doesn’t know what she really wants. He is willing to give up his dream so she can achieve her dreams, if that’s what she wants. If that’s not love, I don’t know what it is.

I hope I gave you the answers you were looking for, Anon! Thanks for the ask and the chance to talk about one of my favorite characters. :)

“But is it really a crime? Is Cobra not a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world? And if we never kill them, are we not basically on their side? And won't this war therefore last forever unless we finish killing Cobra or start killing ourselves?” 

My brain translated this bit by Jeff, almost immediately to: 

“But is it really a crime? Is Annie not a ruthless person determined to rule the world? And if we never love them, are we not basically on their side? And won't this love therefore last forever unless we finish loving Annie or start loving ourselves?”

If Jeff doesn't love Annie, he's letting her go so she can rule the world. That means, the love will last forever (no chance of it being broken because they’re not together and he’s ‘doing the right thing’) unless he stops loving her altogether (moves on, eventually) or starts loving himself (you can either skip that part OR read it as - if he starts letting himself be open to love,  he can be more open to the love and the love being broken).

This kind of ties in with the speech Jeff gives in Modern Espionage S6, about being heroes/villains, and later on in the ep, this line: “All I want to do is be a good G.I.Joe.”

“Um, Destro's dead!” “Oh, my gosh, Destro? Were you guys close?” “Were we close? Yes! What kind of a question is-- Okay, fine. I loved him! Is that what you want to hear?”

This was a conversation between Cobra and Vice Cobra Assistant Commander (the Dean). You can either see Destro as being Jeff, or you can read him as being Annie. I choose to read him as Annie, even if she’s not dying/dead.

Earlier on in the season, we see the Dean confronting Jeff and Annie about their relationship (“What is this?”)... well, this is the Dean asking Cobra if he was close with Destro, and Cobra admitting that he loved him - “Is that what you want to hear?”

So like I said - I choose to read it as Annie...

“Um, Annie’s dead!” “Oh, my gosh, Annie? Were you guys close?” “Were we close? Yes! What kind of a question is-- Okay, fine. I loved her! Is that what you want to hear?”

I really am pathological because there’s nothing much more I can add, other than the fact that it seems important to be me that it’s the Dean asking ‘Were you close?’ and ‘Is that what you want to hear?’ being Cobra’s response in Jeff’s mind. 

You can also tie this up with a S6 moment - Basic Crisis Decorum, we have Elroy asking the same question (not just to Jeff, however) - but think about Jeff’s response. 

Cobra! Avenge my totally platonic friend!

Again - I can’t really say much about this line, but it seems rather specific and the way it was said almost sounds sarcastic and a bit like a jibe. Idk. The word platonic was used in Basic Intergluteal Numismatics, so that’s why I’m thinking of it, mainly. 

A LOT OF THIS PROBABLY IS JUST ME BEING PATHOLOGICAL/DOESN’T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, but seeing as I have hardly rewatched this episode, I was just suddenly like - ‘Woah woah woah, hold up... *rewind*’ when I heard certain lines. 

*takes shipper goggles off* I’m sorry, but this episode just got a whole lot more interesting...

Apart from the Britta B story, the rest is basically about Jeff... as I’ve started to learn, most of Season 6 is really... even if he ended up being depressed and heartbroken. 

First of all, it’s made really clear that Jeff isn’t being included within the group as much. Annie having handshakes with Abed... Britta moving into Apartment 303... Jeff not really being part of the “guys” etc. It all adds on top of the idea that Annie’s distancing herself from Jeff because of what happened at the end of Season 5. 

But there are subtle lines and messages about what Jeff should do about it, and they seem to always come from Annie (thanks for pointing that out @zacscottysnl). Take note in “Basic Crisis Room Decorum” or in “Queer Studies and Advanced Waxing” (where she leans across the table and tells Jeff that he should tell the Dean the truth about how he cares about him). So in this episode, there’s that great line about Jeff putting himself out there. Annie is the one to tell him... and Annie’s the person he should be putting himself out to.

Then there’s what Elroy says to Julie (from Natalie is Freezing). I only just realised, but it’s almost an identical story to what happened with Jeff and Annie. So, okay, Annie didn’t come after Jeff because he wasn’t interested, but the rest is true. 

She got him interested. He fell hard. She “got bored” (or is losing grip because she lost hope/would rather see him have what he wants) and it’s destroying him. He’s been afraid to love anybody for 20 years (pretty much - because Jeff always said he didn’t believe in love), but not ANYMORE. Because he found her. 

Then finally, Jeff comes into the scene and admits to Elroy that he is “tired of playing this game”. He likes him and he wants him to like him back. Jeff’s tired of not telling Annie the truth - he loves her and he wants her to love him back. But what Jeff is surprised by is... the fact that Elroy pulls him in for a hug and then, most importantly, tells Jeff “he loves him”.

So yes okay, Jeff might know that Annie cares about him, but if Jeff were to actually admit things - he’d probably be a little taken aback because as we all know, Annie would probably do the exact same thing as Elroy; she’d surprise him by saying she loves him straight away, with no hesitation.