#griska

You just pointed out one of my main issues with the retcon. The post-retcon characters had everything handed to them on a silver platter and hardly went through any hardships, and they got the reward easily because the characters that we spent more time with went through hell so that these guys' session is full of sunshine and no struggles. That's why Terezi's, Gamzee's and Vriska's arcs went backwards in the end. Heck I'd argue that Karkat's arc went backwards too because some character development his pre-retcon self went through never happened to Karkat post-retcon, like him learning not to be possessive over others and typing in his own blood colour. I honestly think that the pre-retcon characters deserve the reward far more because of that fact. And here's another thing; Homestuck's story is also about growing up, and doesn't growing up involve problems along the way which you solve yourself instead of magically erasing them so that they never happened?

And that's also exactly what Davepetasprite^2 was talking about to Jade here, something that in my eyes has been pointed out enough times before that (though not as clear as they did it). You aren't supposed to see the pre-retcon and post-retcon versions of them as being so separate from each other. Just like with ordinary doomed selves the pre-retcon selves made mistakes. Mistakes that made victory for them impossible, but were necessary for victory to be possible for their Alpha/post-retcon selves. Yes most of these post-retcon versions didn't go through some of these trials. But see, there's thousands of experiences that Doomed Trolls went through that we never got to see. It would be impossible to go through all those problems and mistakes to learn from them, and like Davepetasprite^2 said, a mortal mind wouldn't be able to handle SO many different experiences. But that doesn't mean those other selves went through those mistakes for nothing, definitely not. It's like Aradia said, they need to be prepared to die a thousand deaths so that other versions of them can be more succesful. It's pretty clear, especialy in the pre-retcon/post-retcon part of the story, that after the retcon the characters realize their mistakes quicker and are more capable of stopping it before it becomes a fatal problem. After seeing Davepetasprite^2's speech I'm feeling pretty sure that all "mortal" selves draw "potential" from the infinite well that is the ultimate self, meaning that all meaningful experiences that one self goes through are in some way "accessible" to all other selves. So that they can learn from their other selves without actually realizing what their other selves went through, and at the same time continue to grow as a person. This connection is more materialized in how The Sufferer accessed the experiences of Kankri, how Rose learns about the experiences of her Alternate Future self, how Terezi just remem8ered her alternate experiences, and of course The Dreambubbles where alternate selves can literally encounter each other even in death. And it goes even further than that. Heroes of Mind, Time and Heart all deal with the matter in some way. Terezi sees the alternate paths that can be taken, Dave and Aradia encountered plenty of their doomed selves and were confronted with their mistakes, and Dirk is more self-aware of a splintered experience in which each of his "selves" are actually part of him. And these Time and Heart connections are even more driven home with what Davepetasprite^2 said.

Also, Davepeta seemed like another cheap trick to solve Davesprite's issues, because instead of Davesprite overcoming them on his own, another 'happier' personality gets shoved into his own and claboom he's now happy.

Davesprite's core issue was that he felt like he wasn't "important", that he wasn't the real Dave anymore. Becoming Davepetasprite^2 allows him to see the full picture, to realize that he IS important and technically a real Dave too just like all of his other selves. I think becoming Davepetasprite^2 is exactly what he needed to finally be able to solve his issues.

Post-retcon Vriska and pre-retcon Vriska are not the same character, no matter how much the comic tells me otherwise.

They're probably the most extreme example of having gone through different experiences, yes. But I think that with Vriska that's the point. Unlike any of the other characters she's refusing to learn from the mistakes that have been made, both by herself and by her alternate selves. She refuses to learn anything from it. She might think that she's learnt from it, but she hasn't. Vriska likes to be the best. She wants to do everything to win a game, even if she has to cheat and other people have to suffer. The most important lesson that the Trolls failed to learn during SGRUB was that winning wasn't what counted, it was learning that truly mattered. And they all got punished for it with Bec Noir preventing them from claiming the Ultimate Reward. Their experiences later on, be it on the meteor, in the Dreambubbles, in the B2 session or as Sprites. This finally gave them the perspective they needed to learn from their mistakes and grow as persons. Vriska is the only exception in this. Her post-retcon self never truly learned from her mistakes. While she likes to believe she's the best, she's actually the worst, right uptil the end. So much that eventually even her alternate self managed to become happier than she ever truly was. And now it's suggested that Vriska might be paying the ultimate price for it. She might get to defeat Lord English like she wanted to, but while she's so busy focussing on winning, the door is providing a way out of oblivion that she's failing to acknowledge. The ghosts who were selflessly risking their lives get to escape, while Vriska is forever stuck in the same place, both physically and mentally.

And here's another thing, the fact that Terezi decided to ditch the people who actually cared about her for someone who has proven that they will never changed is something that has bothered me. For some reason Terezi believes that being in a one-side relationship with Vriska and clinging onto her is far better than hanging out with Dave and Karkat, who I honestly think are better people to hang out with? You can argue about Dave and Karkat fighting over her, but they both realized what they were doing was wrong and became close friends in the end. It just seems like Terezi was in a huge denial that her childhood friend is now gone, and the fact that she's decided to cling onto Vriska in both timelines is really bothering me, and that's why I hate the supposed conclusion of pre-retcon Terezi's story. She should have just accepted that Vriska is a bad person and won't change even if she was brought back to life and just moved on to people who actually care about her. At the moment Vrisrezi is a very unhealthy relationship for both of them (Terezi fails at being a moirail to Vriska since she backs down to everything Vriska says, and Vriska doesn't even notice how clingy and upset Terezi is because she's so up in her own ego). So I really hate how this is the conclusion of Terezi's arc in both timelines.

It's pretty funny how both Vriskas thought the other one went to fight Jack, despite neither of them doing that.

I wonder when this is even taking place from Griska and Meenah's perspective.

When later on they met Vriska again, their dialog seemed to imply that they'd never seen her before, even though we clearly saw them encounter each other here.