#frwby

Between him being a faunus supremacist and the poor treatment of women in his life, Adam's more in line with DmC's Vergil rather than the mainline version. And the public at large finds DmC Vergil lame as hell, which kinda fits Adam being pathetic when he doesn't have absolute control over a conflict. His breakdown at Haven best exemplifies this

Raven can make portals like Vergil can with Yamato, and she shares a role he has in being a deadbeat parent. Raven abandoned Yang and Vergil didn't even know Nero existed until DMC5

Cinder has the most important aspect of him, his character. Both had a traumatic childhood incident that created a psychological obsession with obtaining more power so they don't ever feel helpless again. For Vergil it was the attack on his home and death of his mother. For Cinder her entire childhood was a waking nightmare and the straw that broke the camel's back was Rhodes deciding to arrest her after she rightfully killed her abusers

Adam has his superficial surface features AKA his aesthetics. Raven has Vergil's powers and is a deadbeat. Cinder though has Vergil's substance, or in other words his character. Unfortunately Cinder and Raven are women and Celtic's a shallow guy so no shock that the man who only looks like Vergil gets treated "the best" by Celtic's rewrites

Raven fought to take Yang with her in FRWBY and had another kid in Vernal, taking away the deadbeat angle. On top of this fucking Shay D Man is the catalyst for Raven getting abandoned by the rest of the Branwens

Cinder had her screen time gutted, her hatred of Ruby is weak, she's dumber and more reckless than canon, her agency is stolen in the Atlas arc when Watts takes over for her, and her canon backstory might never get shown

Adam though gets a massively expanded backstory to make him more sympathetic, and he gets to be this cool ultra all powerful badass that can fight Qrow and multiple people at the same time and later all of team RWBY and he's so cool and badass didn't you see how cool he is he has Vergil's outfit now and Bury the Light plays for half his action scenes isn't this just great guys

The difference in their respective treatments by the narrative's rewrites is staggering. Cinder and Raven are treated so much worse in FRWBY, while Adam gets all the love. If Celtic was a real Devil May Cry fan then he should have realized these connections and given Cinder and Raven at worst comparable treatment that Adam got

Fixing RWBY takes Beacon's initiation in a strange direction with this in mind. Ozpin has several devices set up throughout the Emerald Forest that he can use to manipulate the landscape. He uses this very tech to direct Ruby to Weiss, implying that this is Oz's MO for forming teams in this universe. He's having a much more direct hand in how certain teams are formed for his own reasons

This ends up making RWBY's formation far closer to how the Ace-Ops were formed in canon. While we can't say for sure how Atlas academy as a whole forms its teams, the Ace-Ops were put together because they're Atlas' best huntsmen and their semblances and fighting styles "have compatibility." It's a completely antithetical approach to canon Ozpin where he'll let things naturally happen on its own

I made sure to double check and this is something that Celtic kept in both his original Volume 1 video and the remaster. The remaster came out after Volume 9 finished airing, he's fully aware of how the Ace-Ops were formed in canon and yet decided to keep this for the so-called Remaster

We're never given any exact details on how Strike Team 32 was formed in FRWBY. Presumably it's just standard procedure in Atlas that fresh graduates stick with teams for awhile, but with different teammates and an experienced huntsman as the leader

For context, he and Neo have been locked up by Ironwood for half of volume 7 due to them being lifelong criminals that helped cause the Fall of Beacon. After they escape confinement, they track down Watts and Tyrian to "ally" with them in taking down Ironwood and taking the relics. In the process they get the lamp out of Atlas' vault and are on their way to bring it to Salem

Doesn't sound like a bad plan so whats the issue? I'm certain that this is a stupid long con to try and hurt Salem somehow. Before the climax of the volume Neo sent Yang a text asking if she trusted her, which is a big sign to me that this betrayal is fake. Either that or Roman is genuine but Neo plans to sabotage him, but no shot will Celtic have his precious Roman relapse into villainy and die or something, I fully expect this to be fake

With that in mind, this idea is so stupid. Roman is pretending to help Salem by actually helping her and giving her the relics exactly like she wants. She doesn't have any of the relics either so this can't be some gamble to try and take the ones she has

This makes me ask the question, why? Why do this?It can't be to try to assassinate Salem, he's fully aware of her immortality. It might be to gather all the relics to summon the gods since they can kill her but he has no idea what Oz's mission even is which makes this insanely risky. "Prove that humanity is more than mindless shadow" is super unclear compared to canon uniting humanity

The only other thing I can think of is to assassinate her agents behind their backs. If THAT works then it'll be lame as hell to kill off a member of the main villains like that, and it would be antithetical to the type of series canon RWBY is. If it doesn't work then Roman did all this for NOTHING. I swear if this is Celtic's plan and it works then Celtic will kill Emerald specifically and Mercury will join the main cast instead. Because FRWBY is a misogynist piece of shit

Also. Shouldn't Salem be suspicious as hell of Roman here? Why on Remnant would Ozpin's next host ally with her? Why would Oz allow that? She shouldn't believe him. And it's not like Roman can hide that he's Oz, Hazel learned of their connection back in Haven and he told Salem

Something to keep in mind with this plan is how it affected RWBY. Due to Neo disguising herself as Ruby in the process of taking the relic it looks like she betrayed Ironwood. As a result of this Ironwood put an arrest warrant on the entire team. Ironwood shot Ruby off of Atlas nearly killing her, WBY have been captured and put in jail cells meaning there's a good chance they've been written out of most of Volume 8, and Qrow is on the run as a fugitive now

If Roman somehow planned for all this as an "exactly as planned" sort of moment then Celtic can fuck right off. If he didn't consider the risks of his plan then he's acting stupid and not smart like Celtic tries so hard to make FRWBY. If he did consider the risks of his plan and went along with it anyway then Roman can go fuck himself and jump in the sweet embrace of death via Melanie's claws

In canon Roman stuck with Cinder's side because he knows that he's by far the weakest person in their dynamic, and how Salem's faction is going to change the world. He posits himself as a "realist" when he starts ranting about the "real world" being a cold cruel place, and how Ruby should just hurry up and die "like every other huntsman in history." He's not doing this for any particular reason other than to save his own skin

He's by far the most pathetic person working with Salem's faction. Everyone else there believes in something which is why they're there. Cinder sees following Salem as the best path to the power she craves. Emerald sees Cinder as family and follows the one person who gave her any sort of comfort in life. Mercury lived an abusive life of violence and sees no other way to continue. Hazel seeks revenge against Ozpin and has been so radicalized that he can rationalize himself attacking Nora and Oscar as Oz's sins. Tyrian views Salem as his goddess that embodies destruction and wants to see her end the world. Even Watts who has the pettiest reason of all is doing this because he feels like his genius was unappreciated by Ironwood. Neo if you count her seeks revenge for Roman's death, first against Cinder, and then Ruby when she realizes Cinder's far too strong for her to handle

Roman doesn't have any of that. He's a crook that got wrapped up in something far bigger than himself, and he's too much of a coward to even flee for fear of retaliation. He just wants a comfortable spot on the "winning side." The only person working for Salem who you could consider as pathetic as Roman is Lionheart who teamed up with her to save his own skin

RWBY is a series that sides with those who can stand up to their fears. Those that don't get punished or villainized by the narrative

Roman died in the middle of his big speech to Ruby. Lionheart betrayed his kingdom out of fear of Salem and pathetically died by her hands begging for his life. Raven loses Vernal and any relationships she has with her team and family. Ironwood's paranoia consumes him leaving him to die completely alone on Atlas rather than the people of Mantle he abandoned

Roman explaining his motivation in Fixing RWBY was retained exactly the same as canon. According to Celtic it was perfect so it didn't require any changes. This creates problems with him being the next Ozpin

He doesn't change to explain him joining the main cast. There's no overcoming his fears, no desire to fix his mistakes, he joins up with RNJR and Qrow because Oz keeps pestering him to the point that he can't even sleep until he agrees. Yeah. Sure. Go ahead. Act out of character to make the canon story happen. Fuck off Celtic

Rather understandably RNJR attack him on sight in V5, but once he reveals that Oz is in him they all accept him as part of the group. Nobody meaningfully confronts Roman on the fact that he tried to kill Ruby and was their enemy for the Beacon era other than Blake, his inclusion is so forced. They just put up with him as if this is normal now. Due to Oscar being a new face and decidedly not a criminal that tried to kill Ruby or helped in the Fall of Beacon, his inclusion to the main cast without much questioning fits a hell of a lot better

Roman doesn't grow to become a more heroic person either, at least not by much. He's still a conman thief that literally steals his way into the Argus train's deluxe car, and he's overjoyed at Ruby suggesting to steal a Bullhead in V6 because she's growing up so fast. He clashes so hard with the rest of the main cast, he's only a "hero" in the sense that he's working with them now instead of Cinder. I know it's the point for him to clash given his origins as a villain in canon but fuck that point

When Dragon Ball did this with Vegeta, he came closer to the heroes' values over time. By the Cell arc he starts training just like the others, he stops taking shortcuts to power because those methods are hollow. Imagine if Vegeta was still planning to become immortal and was purely abusing his body's zenkais by the Cell games to get stronger, only now he's supposed to be with the heroes. That's Roman in FRWBY

When Oz stops yapping in his head after The Lost Fable Roman leaves at Argus because Oz shutting up is what he wanted all along, he's made that clear since V5. The only reason he rejoins the main cast is because Neo thinks sticking with them is their best shot at getting Oz out of him, something she's determined to do

Celtic kept the similar soul rule for Oz's reincarnation, which means he had to be rewritten to be in Roman

RWBY is a series that explores heroism in a lot of angles, and in this discussion Oz in canon was the classical heroic knight. He saved Salem from her father's tower for no other reason than it being the right thing to do, just like the fairy tail heroes Ruby loves. No ulterior motives, no scheming, just simple uncomplicated heroics. In FRWBY, Oz is outright stated by Jinn to be "more cunning than brave," which completely destroys the classical heroics angle and him embodying the heroes Ruby admired

Throughout FRWBY's runtime we're given hints of Oz being a much worse person than canon. Raven says that Oz is just keeping the world the way he likes it rather than actually fighting for anything to improve it. When Roman's plan to trick Lionheart with a disguise Neo makes fails, Leo gets furious when it breaks because Oz will "do anything to take any petty advantage possible"

In canon Oz kept his secrets out of necessity because of Salem's immortality being a pretty strong hope crusher. He couldn't see a way to defeat her and knew if he ever summoned the gods they would wipe out humanity, so his hand was forced to drag this out as long as he has. In FRWBY him hiding the truth comes across as trying to bury his own much worse past than canon from the world. On top fo this his mission from the gods is too unclear for anybody in or out of universe to make out, and he only kept the war with Salem going because if the gods were called he was certain she would die

Roman is antithetical to the values that RWBY champions, and due to Oz's FRWBY rewrites so is he. He's a cynical, cowardly, purely selfish, conman criminal that tried to kill the main cast on numerous occasions, who tries to position himself as the "realist" compared to Ruby. And he hasn't grown to overcome any of his flaws either. You want to know the funny thing though? They fit right in with FRWBY. A series with a more cynical tone trying so hard to be smarter and more pragmatic than canon RWBY, rewriting an asshole and villain like Roman to be part of the main cast, and makes Oz far more villainous than canon? Yeah. I can believe it. It slots in pretty naturally. Big shame this completely runs counter to canon RWBY's themes

Trust and Truth - The benefits and costs of hiding and telling the truth, and how trust relates to these ideas. Even gave us a character whose superpower is to determine if someone's lying or telling the truth

Control - Ironwood's paranoid control freak tendencies vs Penny's lack of control in her own life

Blind Loyalty - The cost of mindlessly following orders and knowing when to step away from that mindset

Heroic Idealism vs Ruthless Pragmatism - The main cast try to save everyone and try to save the world in the ways of a true hero, while Ironwood posits himself as the "rational, pragmatic" approach willing to sacrifice "whatever it takes" to defeat Salem

The way Fixing RWBY handled these themes is so much worse than canon, even with only the context of Volume 7

Trust and Truth just doesn't get explored as much as canon did, and Robyn's semblance was deleted

Ironwood's control freak tendencies get downplayed compared to canon, and Penny's lacking control in her life has been completely removed for the Atlas arc

Blind loyalty barely exists at all in FRWBY's Atlas arc, and by the end of the volume it's the people mindlessly following Ironwood who win the day against the main cast

Heroic Optimism vs Ruthless Pragmatism doesn't get touched at all because Celtic thinks that ruthless pragmatism equals good writing. He had Ironwood shoot Watts in the back before he's even aware that the Tin Man is at Amity, and he's meant to still be a hero by this point. Fuck's sake Celtic

If Celtic isn't tackling these ideas as much as canon, surely he must have added some new themes to replace them right? Well....

There's only one consistent throughline I noticed in FRWBYV7 that canon didn't do as much, but I find it pretty pathetic as a theme. RWBYJNR are filled with doubts on what to do. Whether or not they're doing enough for the world or if mindlessly following Ironwood and doing standard Huntsmen stuff if enough. Obviously the FRWBY Atlas arc isn't done yet so this hasn't gotten a resolution, but that's basically it. This idea doesn't play into WBY vs Strike Team 32 at all in V7's climax, or any of the climax's battles. It basically amounts to the characters asking "Are we doing enough? I don't know if we're doing enough."

I'd say Blind Loyalty is the theme in canon V7 that got explored the least, but even then it was used more and had a more impactful resolution even within JUST Volume 7. This "theme" of "are we doing enough" just sucks in its execution

Let's just call Fixing RWBY's handling of this theme to be.....lacking

The Ace-Ops are Ironwood's hand-picked team of elite fighters, and naturally they will reflect his own beliefs. They weren't partners at the academy or anything like that, they were put together because they're the best huntsmen in Atlas' military and have semblances that are complimentary on paper

Team RWBY was formed by basically pure chance. Between the eye contact rule and duos being put together based on which chess pieces they picked, there's no way to know what sort of people combinations you'll get at Beacon

Due to their military professionalism, the Ace-Ops insist that they're just coworkers that don't care about each other, how emotions will only get in the way of their teamwork

Team RWBY are true friends and a found family. They may argue and disagree with each other at points, but they love each other all the same and will stick together through thick and thin

During the V7 training / mission montage, we're shown a scene of the Bees and Marrow. Marrow suggests they work with their other teammates, in part because he thinks their fighting styles aren't very compatible

The Bees prove him wrong. Whether or not their fighting styles are "compatible," they're one of the best duos in the series because they know each other that well. Marrow focused too much on the raw logistics or "facts," completely missing the completely human element of Blake and Yang's relationship and trust in one another

Ironwood insists on keeping the secret of Amity entirely closed, nobody outside his immediate circle can know because of the risks of sabotage that might happen if it ever became public knowledge. Even if this hurts his reputation among the public, he thinks a damaged image is worth the reward of restoring global communications

The main cast thinks it's for the best that people know about Amity. His secrecy is actively hurting him because people not knowing the reasons for his actions is deeply hurting his ability to actually go through on finishing Amity

Ironwood believes that Salem's lack of humanity is the reason she's so effective. The belief that because of her lack of fear or hesitation, that acting just like her with monstrous cruelty is the way to beat her

Oscar fundamentally disagrees with this notion. If they retaliated to Salem's "lack of humanity" by acting the same way they'd be no better than her

When Robyn starts to steal the resources that Ironwood is repurposing, Mantle also stops selling the resources until Mantle gets repaired. He considers enacting martial law and he decides to arrest Robyn. Either force her and Mantle to cooperate or stomp out the problem entirely so he can continue Amity as planned

Blake and Yang decide to inform Robyn about Amity, hoping that learning why Ironwood's doing this can make Robyn stop without needing to arrest her

Ironwood considers neglecting Mantle and squeezing it completely dry to be worth it to restore global communications. He doesn't give a damn about them, to him they're only "a few city blocks," their suffering is nothing for the rewards gained

RWBY and especially Nora are completely against Mantle's treatment. They focus on the very real human element of the suffering the common folk are enduring because of Ironwood's policies

When the riots in Mantle start and a grimm army invades, Ironwood doesn't want to send in his ships because it "would leave Atlas vulnerable"

Upon hearing that Salem is at Atlas' doorstep, Ironwood decides to send Atlas to the atmosphere and abandon Mantle, even though he has the resources and was planning to evacuate all of Mantle mere hours ago. He refuses to bring in Mantle's people because of the possibility that one of Salem's agents is hiding among them, something that he's completely wrong about by the way. Cinder and Neo are already in Atlas, something Ironwood's sort of aware of with the queen chess piece, Tyrian and Watts have been detained, and Salem Hazel Em and Merc are flying in Monstra. Nobody in Salem's faction is in Mantle

The main cast choose to fight for Mantle, refusing to abandon its people no matter how much harder or riskier it may be. They even come up with a plan that is able to save almost everyone in both cities by the end of V8. I say almost because there were definitely civilian casualties from Cinder when she entered the void but they had no way to know she used the lamp to anticipate their plans

After Ironwood turns his back on Mantle the Ace-Ops repeat a sentiment akin to "Save who you can." When asked if they would save one of their members if they were in the same position as Oscar they say they'd abandon them because "Risking three lives for one is stupid," they would abandon them in a heartbeat and "replace" the lost member as fast as possible. In other words give up. Don't even try. Think of the "big picture" and "save more lives in the long run." Putting in any effort other than the bare minimum is a risk not worth taking. They're playing numbers games with people's lives

Obviously the main cast disagrees. Volume 8's opening is called For Every Life after all, they're trying to save everybody period. Ren outright says that "No one is replaceable"

Winter tries to rationalize to herself that abandoning Mantle is for the greater good to save Remnant as a whole, even though she agrees with Penny about hating this decision personally

Penny meanwhile "Fails to see what is good about any of this" and abandons Ironwood entirely after gaining the maiden powers

When Winter is falling to her death and Penny saves her, she says her life doesn't matter. She thinks Penny should have left her to die so she can keep chasing Cinder to stop her from getting Fria's powers

Penny simply saved Winter for no other reason than it being the right thing to do

Ironwood wanted to guarantee that Winter would be his next maiden. To do so he completely isolated Fria from the rest of the world and made sure only Winter was allowed to see her

Instead Penny becomes the maiden. She forged a brief but genuine connection with her. No manipulation, no isolation, nothing like that

Rather than try to compromise with the main cast and save Mantle so that they'll listen and agree to his plans, Ironwood decides to hack Penny. Force her to obey him with mind control. Fuck her free will entirely, he wants that staff yesterday and he knows best DAMMIT

In complete contrast to the main cast trying to save Mantle, Ironwood eventually decides to bomb it. Hold an entire city hostage to get what he wants. People call this character assassination but they're stupid. He's already signing Mantle's death warrants by abandoning them when Salem is mere hours away from arriving at Atlas. He's just making it much more direct now, and at least a bombing would be fast and painless compared to the grimm

Winter completely failed to gain the maiden powers by Ironwood's plan. However, it's after she turns her back on him that she finally does. Penny cared enough about her that she was in her final thoughts as she died. As opposed to Fria who Winter was simply using to try and gain her power, her genuine connection with Penny is what gifted her the winter maiden powers

When Winter gains the maiden powers Ironwood says "So the destiny I chose for you has arrived," as if somehow it was his plan that caused this, a complete insult to Penny's memory. Winter responds "You chose nothing. This was a gift," a big final fuck you to Ironwood's controlling behaviors and wrapping this theme in a nice little bow. It wasn't Ironwood's heartless plans or manipulations of others that gave Winter the power to save her own life, it was a simple human connection between people who care about each other

You may notice a lack of Fixing RWBY comparisons in this Fixing RWBY post. That's because Celtic doesn't tackle this theme in his rewrite. At all

Strike Team 32 as far as we're aware was formed similarly to how Beacon forms its own teams, we're never given any details on them being made for "tactical, pragmatic" reasons or anything like that

When RWBY bring up telling Robyn about Amity, they get shut down because "convincing anybody of the truth is difficult" and "politicians twisting the truth to their own ends is in their nature." They never even try to tell her due to this

Ironwood's treatment of Mantle is almost never brought up in the story. Hell he doesn't plan to abandon it, at least not yet

Ironwood's plan to guarantee his maiden by isolating Fria goes off without a hitch because Penny was the plan from the start

Of all the themes of the Atlas arc, Fixing RWBY tries to retain this theme the most. To say it fails to have the same impact as canon is an understatement

In canon, Ruby lies to Ironwood about the lamp, about why they're no longer in contact with Oz, and they lie by omission of what they learned in The Lost Fable. A lot of (stupid) people think this is bad writing due to their hypocrisy about them getting mad about Oz's own lies and secrets, but this is intentional

Until The Lost Fable, the main cast were the ignorant ones being lied to, and they rather reasonably retaliated. Oz lied to them and hundreds of people over the millennia about their mission,he gave them a mission under false pretenses, hiding how they're fighting an invincible enemy that can't die

Now they're on the other side of the dynamic, the ones who hold all the secrets. They're learning what it's been like for Ozpin all this time, the weight and guilt of lying to people who trust you. They come to outright apologize to him near the end of V8 for this exact reason

FRWBY takes this in a strange direction. Ruby still lies about the lamp and The Lost Fable, but tells Ironwood that Roman and Oz had a falling out which is why he isn't around, which is pretty true. And somehow, still no idea why it's never explained, Ironwood is already aware of Salem's immortality before they even arrived in Atlas. This immediately reduces the intentional messiness of their situation in canon, Ruby is hiding a lot less than canon did. She's basically just hiding that the lamp still has a question it can answer and that Oz and Salem were exes

Truth is a theme so important to the Atlas arc's narrative that we get introduced to a living lie detector in Robyn Hill. If a semblance is an in-universe reflection of that person's soul like the characters themselves debate, then it means knowing the truth is so important to Robyn as a person that her very soul gave her the means to easily confirm it

In Fixing RWBY Robyn's semblance doesn't exist period. Not only does she never bring it up as an option, according to Ironwood convincing her of the truth of Salem and Amity would be too hard. This is because Celtic Phoenix is a coward and a hack that realized her semblance would make it impossible to tell the story he wanted to tell for the Atlas arc, so he deleted it entirely instead of try to work with it in mind. To my memory Robyn and Velvet are the only FRWBY characters that had their semblances erased from canon. Velvet because she doesn't have Anesidora in this rewrite, and Robyn because her being a living lie detector would make it too hard for Cinder to trick her

On that topic, Cinder lies to Robyn about her being a member of the White Fang, wearing clawed gloves that make her look like a faunus to sell the lie. Due to Robyn's semblance not existing in this continuity and having ties to the White Fang, which is somehow how she got elected to the council, she blindly believes Cinder and strikes a deal with her during a food shortage Watts started. This has a domino effect that will lead to Watts being able to hack Atlas' security grids and Robyn getting assassinated

In canon after Robyn got an arrest warrant put on her, Blake REALLY doesn't want to do this because arresting a huntress that's just trying to help people while being ignorant about what's going on just feels weong. So she and Yang tell her about Amity's existence, and this ends up being helpful in the long term. While secrecy has its advantages, you can't build trust by telling people nothing. Robyn thought Ironwood's secrets were purely for his own gain, but learning about Amity caused her to realize he has the world's best interest at heart and tries to gently push him to tell his secrets to the people. If she was ignorant of Amity she would have been far more aggressive and confrontational at Ironwood than she ended up being

In FRWBY, nothing resembling this happens at all. RWBY suggest telling Robyn about Amity but Ironwood shuts it down because according to him "it would be too hard to convince her of the truth," and "politicians twisting the truth is in their nature." They never even attempt to tell her because of this

For most of FRWBYV7 Penny is hiding the fact that she has almost none of her old memories due to her death at Amity destroying her memory drive. It doesn't take much prompting from Ruby once she confronts her on avoiding her

In canon, Ironwood's secrecy was actively harming his position with other people. To the world at large it looked like he was playing at dictator and harming Atlas for zero reason, and as a result he's burned away any trust and bridges he once had with anybody else. This reaches a head when it looks like Atlas shut off Mantle's power due to Watts hacking the grids, causing a citywide riot and an army of grimm to invade

However, after being encouraged by Ruby and Oscar to finally tell the council the truth of why he's doing this, he's able to work with Robyn to calm down the riots. On top of this he was able to weaponize the truth to his advantage, announcing Amity's existence to the public in order to smoke out Watts. He was able to turn his own paranoid worries of people learning about Amity entirely on its head by admitting its existence on his own terms

FRWBY retains Ironwood's secrecy hurting him. However, Ironwood tells the Atlas council the partial truth entirely of his own volition, with nobody prompting him to do so but the council. Vaguely gesturing at Amity's existence as the weapon he plans to destroy the grimm with, but no mention of Salem or the specifics of how Amity will work. The only reason he's telling them the truth is as a pretense justify himself becoming dictator of Atlas since the council is planning to vote him out of the government. Due to nobody in the main cast except Weiss and Qrow being at this council meeting, nobody encourages Ironwood to tell everything so he doesn't

As a result of Ironwood retaining his secrecy on Amity, he has to sit on his ass and wait for Watts to make the first move. When Watts finds out about Amity by hacking its files, Pietro traces the hack and tells Ironwood about this so he heads there

Unlike Ozpin, in canon RWBYJNRQO are willing to tell Ironwood the truth once they feel it's appropriate. Once Ironwood started being open about his Amity plans, they felt it appropriate to tell him what they've been hiding. Ozpin would rather die again than have anybody learn what he's been hiding, as he's been burned by the experience of telling others his secrets multiple times

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, in FRWBY they never tell Ironwood about what they've been hiding. He learns about RWBY lying about the lamp through Watts since he's been spying on them admitting their lies, and he learns about The Lost Fable through Salem when her Seer pops

In canon, part of why Ironwood turns against the main cast is because they lied to him at all, even though they came clean entirely of their own volition. He also considers Blake and Yang telling Robyn about Amity to be another betrayal, even though that ended up helping more than hurting. Ironwood doesn't care. They lied and told his secrets regardless of any other context, so he can't trust them

In FRWBY, when it looks like Ruby betrays him due to Neo disguising herself as her, he confronts Ruby at Atlas' vault. Due to Ruby lying and never admitting the truth to him, and the events at the volume's climax making her look like a traitor, Ironwood starts making some wild accusations against her. He assumes that she's been lying to him about literally everything. That Roman isn't Oz, that she's actually working for him or Salem, and that she's been lying and using him from the moment they first met. She tries to get him to see reason, but he doesn't listen and shoots her off Atlas just like Oscar in canon

Even the villains can change as they learn the truth in Volume 8. Emerald and Mercury argue about sticking with Salem, to which Tyrian comes in. He explains that Salem wants to destroy the world, which is accurate if Oz's own assessments are true, and if they couldn't tell that from the start they must be out of their minds. After this Emerald defects from Salem and joins the heroes, and she and Mercury share a look that implies he'll eventually do the same

Hazel has been radicalized against Ozpin to the point that he considers him attacking "children" like Nora to be Oz's sins for hiding behind them. And yet all he needs to turn against Salem after being told of her motives by Oz, is to see Jinn. A being that can answer any question. He didn't even need to ask her anything, just seeing her confirmed that Oz has been telling the truth to him. He turns on Salem, fights her, and sacrifices himself so that Ozcar could set off the cane nuke without interruption

Only time will tell how FRWBYV8 handles this

As a result of Atlas' military culture, the Ace-Ops will do whatever Ironwood says for no other reason than his authority as the general of Atlas' army. They go from allies of the main cast protecting Mantle to enemies abandoning the poorer city because Ironwood said so. Elm even considers RWBY not going along with Ironwood to be betraying them. Blake rightfully calls out how they're betraying the people they're sworn to protect due to their blind loyalty to Ironwood, and Yang taunts them multiple times about "just following orders," throwing their blind loyalty back in their face

When Clover sees the arrest warrant for Qrow, he immediately tries to detain him. He doesn't stop and think why Ironwood made the warrant, he doesn't consider it might be a mistake, he doesn't think that since Qrow has been by his side all night he hasn't done anything to warrant an arrest. He sees the warrant, he follows orders. He even goes so far as to entirely focus on Qrow when Tyrian enters fray despite the faunus being by far the more dangerous man

According to Clover, he feels that he owes Ironwood his life. And for his reckless actions from that blind loyalty, that's exactly what he loses. Tyrian kills him. If he had worked with Qrow to detain Tyrian then at worst Qrow would have KO'd him or knocked him around. But he didn't do that, Ironwood's orders took priority

Winter hates Ironwood abandoning Mantle just as much as Penny, but unlike Penny she has that Atlas military culture ingrained in her. Unlike the Ace-Ops as well, Winter gives an actual reason for going along with the plan. She rationalizes Ironwood's decision as a necessary sacrifice thinking of the "greater good" of humanity. Unlike the Ace-Ops, Winter can still actually think for herself even if it's in service of Ironwood's agendas

Throughout Volume 8 we see Winter grapple with her cognitive dissonance. After basically every decision Ironwood makes in the volume we see Winter's growing doubts over the course of the volume's runtime etched in her face and body language. We even see through Ren's evolved semblance that she has by far the most complicated emotions out of everybody in the Bullhead

Winter is even able to take advantage of the Ace-Ops' strict following orders by chain of command. When YJR plan to head into Monstra Harriet is furious at Winter agreeing due to them being "traitors and fugitives." All Winter has to do is say "I outrank you" to make her shut up even though she's absolutely livid at this, and she follows along

While we don't see Marrow's own doubts as much, we're still given multiple scenes of them. He hates sending YJR on a suicide mission of going into Monstra while they prepare to shove a bomb down its throat, and has clear moral problems with sending FNKI on the frontlines

This all comes to a head when Ironwood decides to bomb Mantle. Marrow argues with the rest of the Ace-Ops. Elm thinks he isn't serious, Vine thinks the threat is worth it if it forces the main cast to "see reason," and Harriet doesn't care. Hearing that Ironwood was serious and plans to follow through with that threat if the heroes don't comply is the last straw.

Marrow considers this a complete betrayal of his principals, and he calls out that the Ace-Ops don't believe in anything other than the chain of command if they're playing along with this plan to bomb Mantle. They went from saving Mantle's people two days ago, to abandoning said people, to going along with annihilating an entire city's civilian population with a military grade explosive because Ironwood ordered it. As the song War points out, they're "Just a mindless weapon pointed at an enemy." Marrow has had enough and abandons the Ace-Ops, and Ironwood attempting to execute him finally pushes Winter to make moves against him

Hell Harriet attempts to bomb Mantle herself out of nothing but "the principal of it," out of "loyalty." She pays for this with Vine's life. While Watts did activate the bomb, Harriet's the one who armed it, she got her teammate and friend killed for nothing, and she'll have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of her life

Emerald is dealing with her own blind loyalty issues over the series' runtime. Despite clearly being uncomfortable with everything to do with Salem, Emerald sticks by her because Cinder is the only person she ever saw as family. She doesn't care about Salem or her cause at all, she's only there from her own loyalty to Cinder. However, her own blind loyalties have already been challenged before Volume 8 even started. Mercury calls out her "never having a mommy," and how Cinder doesn't care about either of them beyond their usefulness

In comes Volume 8 and it becomes increasingly, blatantly clear to Emerald that Cinder doesn't care. Between this, her own moral problems with all this being shown as early as the Fall of Beacon, and learning that Salem plans to destroy the world from Tyrian, she deserts Salem

An important thing to note is that when these three decide to finally act on their own thoughts instead of mindlessly following somebody else, they prove instrumental in helping the main cast. Emerald disarms Ironwood making him much easier to handle. Winter gives a lot of support in the fight against Ironwood and inflicts the finishing blow. Marrow stops the Ace-Ops before they can even start a fight with Qrow and Robyn

Fixing RWBY takes this idea in a strange direction

According to Ironwood Atlas' culture of suppressing individual expression is "greatly exaggerated." This immediately puts this theme into auestion because a nation with a strong military culture still allowing individual expression is an odd mix

Throughout Volume 7, RWBYJNR repeatedly show doubts on if they're doing enough for the world or are just being Ironwood's mindless drones. Meanwhile FNCP are fully secure in what they're doing as said mindless drones

Winter is especially odd here because she seems to have doubts on Ironwood before V7 even started. She's been leaking confidential intel about him to Robyn for awhile, and she shows doubts on Ironwood much earlier than she did in canon

When the arrest warrant is given out on RWBY, nobody in Strike Team 32 seems to really question it. Flynt and Neon show some doubts but they tell the bees to just play along and get arrested so they can sort things out later. Ciel seems to view this as an excuse to kill/detain Ruby due to hating how she's involved in Penny's life and "destroying" it. Clover doesn't tell Qrow about the warrant at all as they're detaining Tyrian until Ruby calls Qrow

Winter and Penny never voice their thoughts on this at all. This is ESPECIALLY baffling because Penny explicitly has feelings of trust in Ruby despite her lack of memories, and Winter has doubts on Ironwood throughout V7. If anyone should show doubts on Ruby "betraying" Ironwood it would be them. Instead we get nothing

In canon, the Ace-Ops' and Winter's blind loyalty to Ironwood gets them punished by the narrative. The Ace-Ops get defeated, Clover dies, and Winter doesn't become the next maiden until after she turns her back on Ironwood

In FRWBY, that loyalty gets rewarded. FNC annihilates WBY with zero difficulty because they start their fight with an ambush and pick off the main cast one by one in 3v1 ganks. You would think that WBY's doubts and FNC's internal security would play into the battle but no. They just win because they used a "smart" tactic. Clover doesn't focus entirely on Qrow when Tyrian joins the fight so he survives unlike canon. Penny who was always Ironwood's planned maiden gets the power just like canon