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the sitcom version of season 6 definitely involves cas trying to hide his evil plan to become god while dean is slowly more and more convinced casās secret is that heās gay. like its true but its also not actually a secret
have i ever told you that you are my archnemesis
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i see ur talkin tfw dnd. my 2 cents: cas can should and must be a druid he deserves it and would actually be good at keeping track of his spells. he is somehow a power gamer and obsessed with talking to every npc and having the dm explain the scene in extreme detail
god peter YOUR MIND
first of all druid cas with the animals... heād have so many friends... theyāre out by a forest and sam and dean wake up because cas was the last to take watch and cas is just having a little chat with some of the wildlife (^:
Ā and he would!!! heād understand like. what the class demands of a player and heād be really good at it. also cas casting conjure elemental...... very Good......
and YEAH heād assume all of the npcs charlie mentions are important. and charlie would love that about cas so much... sheād be like! castiel is a double edged sword. if i write this detailed plot point he WILL pick up on it, and if i donāt, heāll FORCE me to make one up on the spot by insisting on interviewing the npc.Ā
i feel like i almost understand ur points on cas and his sense of morality and consequences but maybe im just like too tired rn i think im not quite grasping it. but like i do love to think about cas and morality and like. personally i think of cas as not reaching full moral development. like as in kohlbergās theory of moral development, where cas does have a sense of morality that he follows but it might not be as complex as human beings that grow up learning about right and wrong. like it is very. rule based. and something is the right course of action, until it causes ābadā consequences or he receives some kind of punishment for it, and then it flips to being a wrong course of action. like it is all about consequence. if the consequence is bad, even if you couldnāt possibly have expected it from your actions, the actions are now bad, and you are bad, too, and now punishment is necessary. and i think what counts as a consequence might change for him before the reasoning does. like as an angel the only consequence was punishment by superiors, but by season 5, the destruction of humanity becomes a ābadā thing, and to some degree deanās opinion of him is a consequence too. but more importantly itās deans safety that is a consequence that matters. like if cas canāt stop dean from saying yes to michael, that will lead to dean being in danger, which would be bad, and cas should be punished for it. this is rambely im sorry abt that but yeah. i would love to hear more of ur thoughts on cas and his sense of consequences and punishment tho :)
I am extremely hesitant to judge morality that way because I think it lends to ethnocentricism. This isnāt to say I disagree with your interpretations, I just donāt personally like looking at it through that framework for various reasons.
I doĀ reallyĀ agree with this statement,Ā āif the consequence is bad, even if you couldnāt possibly have expected it from your actions, the actions are now bad, and you are bad, too, and now punishment is necessary,ā which I think is very core to the ways in which angels perceive morality which is why believing in grand design is so essential. And that was very much what I was also getting at within my response on this post. I do think that like consequence being created by authority does lend into a moral development of law/rules not to abstract individualism and so forth, but I donāt think that itās a matter of lack of development, and having those consequences in place donāt negate like consequence being something that goes against your own abstract moral reasoning (but then if you doubt that is immoral) which then does leave the later states of Kohlbergās theory of moral development out unless very specifically your fall from the system, so I would agree with that, but Iām not fond of the framework because itās more about cultural differences and putting that into stages of development implies lesser/higher which means we are fundamentally judging it from our human perspective which is different but not superior.
They have different moral standards that are also based around the unfathomable amount of time, through many mass extinctions and times of great distress, theyāve been alive.
I honestly believe that Cas sees any suffering as a negative consequence, he just keeps it more calculated in his head (the trolley problem wouldnāt be a conundrum to him) unless it becomes something personal (keeping the Winchesters safe, for example, regardless of who else it could hurt). There are other consequences, such as Deanās perspective of him, that guide this, but he like fundamentally does not want any living creature to suffer. So I wouldnāt put that sort of consequential way of perceiving at a lesser standpoint in terms of like morality of right and wrong? But also I do think he associates violence against himself as response to his own fallacy.Ā
But if youāre looking at narrative in terms of this transition from angelic morality to human morality, yes Cas would then struggle within that new framework. This automatically also means heās failed within his own which therefore implies rejecting rules through that doubt. So he runs into these issues of fundamentally shifting from one paradigm to another which then means he will be less capable of working within that new framework.Ā
Which like, the biggest issue for him I think lies that inability to differentiate consequence and actual capability of action. He therefore blames himself when he shouldnāt without being able to actually pinpoint where his impact went wrong. Which would make sense in the way of seeing moral development because heās changing to action being of his own free will and all, so yeah, I agree to some extent. Itās more that he just then continues making the same mistakes that end with consequences against his morality which in turn means he canāt better himself.
ā Kohlbergās final level of moral reasoning is based on universal ethical principles and abstract reasoning. At this stage, people follow these internalized principles of justice, even if they conflict with laws and rules.ā
I would however disagree he doesnāt reach this point because the very act of doubting a system that brainwashing, lobotomises, and tortures you by having doubt based on your internalised principles of justice and dying for your own ethical principles that would deem you unethical by that standard would definitely be this point. It just doesnāt undo the fact the way he perceives action/inaction especially regarding himself and his own sense of self-blame wonāt remain ingrained in how he was for hundreds of millions of years.
So like, in short, I definitely agree that shifting from one cultural standard of morality to another (which I personally would not like to judge by humanityās standardās) would mean Cas would have deficiencies in how to utilise his moral reasoning because itās a framework contrary to what heās known his entire life, even if he is willing to go against any set of laws or societal norms imposed upon him. But the very act of shifting from a moral set that requires complete faith in law to doubt it in itself would require strong abstract moral reasoning which he dies for in the first season, and from like the beginning of his introduction he is pushing the limits of what he should.
19 !! for ask game?
who gets to say fuck?
JACK. i think it would be fucking hilarious. just jack coming out with aĀ āwhat the fuckā very politely and everyone freezing and looking at him and then each other to figure out where he learned that word (it was jody)
6 for the ask game? š
ahhh thank you for the askšš!!!
6) Metatron: fun Cas-centric villain or annoying twerp: the answer is both because he was both and THAT'S why he was a good villian and I'll die on this hill. Metatron was genuinely such a good villian because he was so fucking annoying and it was funny as fuck (literally one of the last good villians if not the last good villian, what who said that). And he genuinely was just obsessed with Cas, incredible. Metafiction my beloved <3
discourse ask game <3
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hiiiii i just realised that ive been formulating ācas gets pregnantā aus and i havent even brought them up to thee cas gets pregnant scholar so. i simply must know what ur thoughts are on cas getting pregnant in endverse. like usually when i think abt this its w/ trans cas after hes fallen and a fully human baby But thereās also i think a different avenue of him getting gracepregnant in the alternate endverse version of s5, and giving birth essentially using up the rest of his grace leaving him human afterwards. and then i think the nephil could serve as casā last reminder of heaven, but also a potential weapon against lucifer. either way i just think the tragedy of endverse can be made so much more fun if u give cas a baby. or him wanting to have a baby.
okay so that reminds me of several things. firstly, of my deanpreg concept from this post, which i know you've seen but is relevant so i'm linking it anyway for posterity, secondly, of this fanfic, and thirdly, of @lesbiansamwinchester's endverse jack au. so i would recommend perusing those resources at your leisure.
i love the idea of endverse cas being like. dean i want a baby. i am obsessed w this. would you put it when cas is fully fallen? the endverse cas we know and love? or maybe earlier. like, it's fairly obvious to me that, regardless of whether or not they are still sleeping together, endverse dean and endverse cas' relationship has fallen apart. but like. in this 'verse, cas demanded a baby like. WHILE their relationship was deteriorating. like they were still a loving partnership but the cracks were showing. and dean thought cas wanted a baby to fix their relationship so asking made it worse instead. althought the ACTUAL reason cas wanted a baby was to have something he could call his own if he ever lost dean, and to have another angelic being around, and also to save a remnant of his grace, because while his grace was fading, a nephilim doesn't require the approval of heaven to have grace, and so something of cas' true angelic self would continue to exist even as cas faded and became human. i like them not actually having a baby, just fighting about it and then dean winning the fight so they don't have a baby (oh stream first church for endverse dean and paternity) (i know you're the one who recommended first church to me kit but. for posterity). but also if they did have a baby that baby would become a weapon so fast. horrific. cas carrying a toddler into battle in one of those little baby backpacks so he can hold its hand and use its nephilim mojo to smite croats, since he doesn't have the juice anymore but he still knows how.
ok. the one thing i cannot square in my mind is deans treatment of the baby shapeshifter in 6x02 v his treatment of jack. like he latches onto this āmonsterā baby so fast. he doesnāt trust the campbells around him! like i somewhat get that jack is indirectly associated with the death of his loved ones in his mind, but still. like the only conclusion i come to is that jackās decision to like. grow up immediately was actually objectively the wrong one because no matter what he had done or what he was if he had looked like a baby dean would have protected him
yeah i feel like the distinction is that the shapeshifter baby gets into dean's lizard brain as A Baby and jack doesn't. and also the shapeshifter baby is materially dependent on dean and jack isn't. like the fact that jack doesn't feel like a baby to dean is a big part of it.
also dean spent most of season twelve gearing up to fight jack, and then jack is partly responsible for cas' death and mary being trapped, so he's got a lot of emotion invested in seeing jack as a monster.
also obviously this is all about his treatment of jack in early s13, in s14 it's more about buying into soullessness = evil.
wait hold on slightly to the left: dean is dead for some amount of time, cas and sam are mourning him, then he is mysteriously resurrected. and then him and cas gets together, and then later cas realises its not dean at all (not sure What it is or its intentions) and dean is still dead. and sure its not the real dean, but dean is gone, this is the best heās gonna get. he doesnāt say anything to sam. this concept is solidifying in my mind right now.
oh this is nuts. this is NUTS. wait he goes to heaven to talk to dean and dean is like. leave me be. i'm dead. and cas is like. oh.
THAT'S when he decides not to tell sam.
