#cersei's characterization

The truth is sadder.

If not exactly Dany S8 degree of "lost mind" cult leader "fanatical, it will be that she lost sight that Targs are not Gods and she "lost herself" bc she was desperate & had been deprived of the access to male graces her entire life. which is problematic not only bc bk!Rhaenyra seemed to feel little to no real jealousy or wish to do "masculine" stuff or to adopt a more "masculinized" identity, but bc it poses masculinity as both an inherent, immutable and prime desireable state of being rather than a thing that develops from socialization.

They seem to think that they are giving respect to Rhaenyra's end by not really thinking about women=victim and instead focusing more on how said woman "escapes" victimhood by doing what she can only ever do, and that is massive malicious takeover that she can no longer see as inherently evil. Somehow this is their "necessary" compromise with woman-eternal-victim with "feudalism is always bad and we shouldn't care about nuances of living in such a system": a woman fails bc she decided to the biggest-baddest thru weapons of mass destruction and manipulating 1000s to believe these creatures are gods to get where she has always been told she doesn't deserve.

Here's the thing. Cersei is a NLOG and did think that she needed to become a literal man or adopt ONLY masculinized phenomena (looks, behavior, practices, like sword fighting) in order to ever consider herself capable of being a creature of power. Of being an agent of change, influence, power, formidability, authority in her society/community/etc. Something that many people want or develop to want. And most women have ta one point felt this way whether it was a sustained (years long), "momentary", or something we still feel reflexively from time to time. Because we have been socialized that way. To think man = prime/only source of human power/"naturalness". It is inevitable that there will be Cerseis and such...but to make as if women are monolithically going to turn out to be Cersei is itself sexist to maintain that idea that maledom is a unquestionable "prize" or grace.

I see Cersei as both a tragic figure who portrays how fallible and futile it is to deny your own traits or eschew exploring what you are truly affined with at any given moment, or at least be flexible there in one's expression, be it gender or not. Bc Cersei is a figure of extreme repression to fit something she can never be bc it will always be denied to her on account of having a vagina and looking like an ideal of female beauty. It is why she is funny and tragic (to some, just hateful, or that and pitiful). But to make as if every single women MOST women will fall into this trap society makes is to make as if women are also pretty weak of mind, or whatever counts as "soul". Which again counts to reaffirm masculinity's superiority and women's place as needing the "protection" of men.

BK!Rhaenyra was an example of a woman who may not have been perfect but she never felt as if she had to deny who she was to prove her deserving or hide her traits to have access to such. She demanded and didn't give in enough when she was nonverbally and socially compelled to and was killed for it. HotD wants to stray from this to seemingly reaffirm all that I just described, even as its writers might not really understand the gravity of what they are doing.

Both are tragic figures. But they are not the same woman and their womanhoods' developments/how they created their womanhoods within the system give them their own separate flavors of tragedies that also go under the super-category of "women are damned" archetype in fiction. It is also bc these writers haven't really understood agency in gender relations.

Ned watched Robert hit Cersei in the face so hard she was knocked down, Ned asked her about the abuse and she told him it happens often but she doesn’t usually get hit on the face, Ned saw Robert trying to murder a 14-years-old pregnant girl, and he still didn’t think badly of Robert. Ned still wanted to tell an abusive man about his wife having bastards and cheating on him.

Ned also found out that Robert was having sex with a 12-13 girl, which even for Westeros, is nuts as these girls are way more at risk of dying from childbirth AND they are still seen more often as kids than not.

[REDO bc previous wasn't written well enough]

Aside from THIS and THIS showing how negligible & changeable the effects and meaning of "bastardry" was in the real world and Westeros (very important posts)...

Despite the argument that Rhaenyra's cheating doesn't equal modern-day cheating, the flavor of feudal monarchist misogyny against female agency, and how Rhaenyra actually didn't have that many options of a safe father for her necessary heirs (scroll down to section D, parts 3-5), there are still some who argue that she should have chosen someone who looks like Laenor or like her, sometimes using Cercei' 's situation with her own kids and Robert to say "At ThE eNd Of ThE dAy", Rhaenyra's kids are bastards.

No, neither set are "legally" bastards.

Neither set were ever declared or "acknowledged" as bastards. Robert probably would have had he bene informed, but bc he died before then, Cersei's kids are not officially bastards…which is what is required to have them "legally" known as bastards. Because bastardry has always been more of a legal question in its nature than a biological fact of nature. Of course, we know that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's biologically; Ned deuced that Cersei's weren't Robert's biologically. And medieval customs put the social-legal identification of "bastard" based on the institution of marriage and its compulsions on women and their reproductive labor claimed by the men "licensed" to own them. Which is why when we say that neither Cersei's nor Rhaenyra's kids are "bastards", it is true because the role of bastardry is to attempt to reclaim the product of reproductive labor…and Viserys/Corlys/Laenor/Robert have already done that. To protest about how Robert didn't know about his kids not being his kids is really to protest how he didn't not get the products of Cersei's reproductive labor the in the objectifying business of labor intrinsic in this feudal society. Whereas Viserys/Laenor/Corlys accepted the products of Rhaenyra's reproductive labor.

They both "get away" with something, with being revealed & exposed as having had extramarital sex (not "affairs", bc Rhaenyra didn't have an affair, she and Laenor had and agreement!)...but because they do not share the same positions nor have the same sort of people around them, their kids therefore are not in the same boats nor do not share similar sociopolitical positions. And yes, if the parentage of their kids get exposed, there are possible, terrible consequences. But they will not be treated the same.

Sometimes people argue that Cersei had even more success in passing off her kids than Rhaenyra bc "at least" they look like her...even this is negliable and reductive.

A) Really, the Prime Reason, but whatever, this is a Master Post

Rhaenyra is the heir. All her kids have DIRECT claim to the Iron throne through her. Not Laenor, not Daemon, not Harwin...RHAENYRA!

Cersei's children "should" have had claim to the throne from their father Robert because Cersei has no claim AT ALL to the Iron throne bc she's not a Baratheon. Indirect nor Direct.

["direct" refers to a vertical lineage (mom and grandparent were heirs or the monarchs); "indirect" would be like your cousin or uncle being the heir or monarch]

And adding onto this, Viserys, the MONARCH, ABSOLUTELY knows those children are biologically Laenor's Laenor knows. Corlys knows. Yet all three accept those kids as their heirs/relations and thus also place them as their respective heirs for their respective seats. (This is an example of how lords are far more interested in making sure that their singular, sovereign privilege to decide things for their house and reducing the chances of dissenters than they are in seeing a possible claimaint question them or challenge them/their heirs for power, whether they have claim or not. that the oaths that any perosn makes to them are honored and in that way they can also be assured to have the loyalties of those making those oaths. Rhaenyra's claim had other implications and stakes for the lords than her being a woman! Hence why most of Westeros pledged and fought for Rhaenyra!!!--thought from rhaenin-time here on Tumblr)

As for "but they were never publicly recognized or acknowledged as bastards for them to be openly legitimized", only the monarch can declare any legitimizations -> there has never been a time when a noble/royal woman--who did not rule a house or the realm in her own right nor was declared as an heir--birthing a bastard has had that bastard legitimized except for Daemon Blackfyre. Daena was not a Queen regnant nor ever the heir. She was slotted to be the Queen Consort, like Cersei became. Rhaenyra does not share this position, she was the heir and if you are wondering why this matters, you have not read my previous paragraphs correctly or at all.

In acknowledgements--when "the biological father of a bastard may...bring him formally into his house"--it is always been the father doing the customary acknowledgement! Why? Because women who have extramarital sex, unlike men, usually don't given keep the right to marry bc she's "ruined", "unchaste", or-and "disobedient" and "unfaithful", much less be considered an autonomous claimant to anything. A person who is forever considered more a dependent than an agent in their own society cannot have the same abilities as an agent unless they are like Rhaenyra...and even then the gender roles are so strong as to make exceptions for someone like Rhaenyra. Since to be a woman = "obedience" to a male/male adjacent force/entity.

Daemon Blackfyre's father, Aegon IV, was not only royal-noble himself, he was the King (Aegon IV). If Daena had Daemon by a noble nonroyal, or a peasant man, her son would never have been legitimized even with her acknowledging him bc she had already been politically subordinated by Baelor, the Dance, etc. so as to not have political allies at court/beyond and be even less considered as the "safe" enough". Even if she had been older than Aegon IV. Any child she had/Daemon's claim to the throne would be considered weaker than any child by Aegon IV, bastard or not. Which is a huge reason why she went for Aegon IV of all people when she escaped!!!! Besides the fact that it would have been beyond obvious that Naerys was not at all his type and he would have not tried to hide that, she not only wanted to express her defiance and autonomy for her being locked up, she wanted her own blood claim (the political power she had left) to really mean something after Baelor's naked attempts to diminish it. By being the mother to a child who could reasonably compete with any of Aegon's even just in theory, she in turn "restores" the value and meaning of her own blood/power. Again, what mattered is that her kid(s) is also another Targ's, bastard or not.

There is no agnatic primogeniture in Westeros except maybe in the North (girls are not heirs or monarch no matter what). Except Dorne, where there is absolute primogeniture--any firstborn, male or female--can become the heir/ruler--Westeros has always done male-preferred primogeniture. Men have chosen female heirs or rulers, have been lead by women. Look them up in A World of Ice and Fire.

Men have been the final authority or privileged decider of the two genders precisely because they were the ones who usually had the power to do so. There is no written and consistent "law", only traditions and customs. So yes they have had the only practical authority to "acknowledge".

Therefore on the issue of Rhaenyra's kids having strong claim...yes they do, because Rhaenyra is in a similar[not same] position of every lord, male noble, and male heir: she is the "decider" of her house. Daemon was not the one to make final decisions of Dragonstone when they married, that was all Rhaenyra!

Whereas Cersei's kids do not in the purest technical sense because she has no claim at all to the throne by blood and Westeros is not 17th-18thth centuries Russia where a empress consort could become empress regnant through her marriage alone.

And obviously, since Rhaenyra is the next head and her firstborn is Jace and we don't see her choose any heirs apart from him...Jace is her legitimate heir.

B) Cersei's reason for choosing Jaime or not the same for why Rhaenyra chose Harwin to be the father of hers.

We could argue all day that genetics gives us children who could inherit "50-50" of their parents' features or something like that, but:

ASoIaF genetics is weirder than real genetics.

The Baratheons (even when marrying Lannisters & other houses) tend to yield dark-haired kids, & yet Cersei's 3 kids are all blonde with no Baratheon gray eyes...it's like people forgot the information Ned used to prove that she was fucking Jaime and was passing her kids off as Robert's in the first place, but maybe some people who argue this simply hadn't read the books while they make arguments about the series simultaneously

Both women relied on their aristocratic privileges to maintain and accrue power (Rhaenyra, blood claim and king-chosen; Cersei, born an aristocrat, a Lannister, and married to a King, mother to another). Cersei actually should be risking herself similar to how some say Rhaenyra was. She's not protected by a royal father, but by an "ordinary" aristocratic man, right?

Wrong!

Tywin Lannister is not that much smarter than Tyrion or her; it's that he's built a very intimidating reputation from his ruthlessness towards the Reynes, amassed great wealth, sided with Robert at the last minute, and made/maintained important connections (Steffon Baratheon and Aerys II) since he was in his early twenties. Nevertheless, in the world they live in, he has made his house more materially powerful and socially prestigious than it has ever been. But his greatest oversight was to abuse his own kids into their own versions of incompetencies so that his house wouldn't be able to continue its stature beyond himself and his brother Kevan. But for the sake of the climate Cersei grew up and developed her Lannister Exceptionalism, what I say still matters. With her father's influence and silent rejection, she has learned that to be powerful is to abuse and use up others. To cause enough fear to intimidate others that they couldn't dare to attack her or anyone she loved.

(For writings about Cersei, click HERE, HERE, and HERE).

She has less faith put into her than Rhaenyra had & she has been raised-left to block out what could diminish the soundness of her ideas through trying to emulate Tywin while not having his man-exclusive privileges. We have seen Cersei's mind and how she thinks for many chapters. While she has a good knowledge of history, she is also not patient or self-aware/accepting enough of her own limits to be good at critical thinking & be a good enough strategist. She's too prideful and full of deluded self-grandeur--her way of self-affirming against the misogyny she received since she was below 10 butting against her need to practice "real", substantive power. The same kind & level of power and compunction men are allowed.

But with this AND the fact they are different types of Queens...

While both women were severely limited in what partner they could have while still expect to have the security and positions that they had:

Rhaenyra, as the first true female heir apparent of the realm, had to have more planning and preparations for her to be able to ascend with as little issue as possible than if she were male. Rhaenyra's husband was gay and couldn't bring himself to "properly" impregnate her. She had to have heirs to secure her own claim and Viserys' wishes that she take the throne. It was her "duty" as a woman AND heir. It was thus also the only way she'd be even more assured she'd have a smoother time ascending. So her husband not impregnating her is a huge problem. And she was not a rapist, so forcing Laenor to do would be rape. If you are okay with Rhaenyra or any person raping their spouse to get heirs, you are not the type of person who should be reading ASoIaF nor have any sort of relationship, frankly. You are a menace to society, and a hypocritical because how is rape better than having "bastards"?!!! And she had to choose a father that would not try to risk her one her kids' lives by trying to say he was the dad or otherwise try to gain benefits by being said father. A man who would be with her for her alone and not try to overrule or overbear her authority/position for his own gain. ...So, for duty + love + intimacy = different types of "safety", Rhaenyra chose Harwin.

Cersei chose Jaime because she was suffering from both spousal abuse and the destroyed expectations in her role for being Queen Consort. All her life, Tywin had been hyping & telling her she would be the Consort of Rhaegar specifically. Like Alicent, Cersei and every girl knew that to be the Consort of the King was usually the highest rank and means to the most wealth/prestige a woman could have. Women are human, so they also have the propensity for ambition, or they want the most "safety" and "glory". Because Robert didn't hide or even try to engage with Cersei in a really human way because of his "missed chance" with Lyanna AND Cersei had grown up with the foundation that it was her Lannister exceptionalism that made her worthy (since being a woman wasn't enough), Cersei was forever offended by Robert. Again, there was a chance for Robert to be patient and engage when he perceived her reluctance...instead her tried to foist his displeasure on her own "coldness". Saying that she "owed" him her body no matter how she felt about him. Even with that being the custom, custom shouldn't trump human dignity. Like slavery...so it's okay to own a human being because by law or by tradition, they aren't human?! Because of custom, a woman's children aren't really hers but her husband, even though she could have nearly died birthing all/any of them...let's bfr. And we know that Robert physically abuses her. It really doesn't matter when or how it got there, once you decided to lay hands on people, you have debased them and are not owed neither respect nor should be owed protection. In fact, it is this entrapment of "duty" that propels Cersei into her being even more prideful...because without that pride, what else does she have?! Unfortunately, unlike Dany, Cersei's pride relies on her nobility and viciousness to "get the job done", on her being as "masculine" as possible. She has always admired the Targs exactly for their domination & the exclusive right to practice Westerosi-considered-incest (siblings), so, through Jaime/twin incest--the person she feels she would have been if she were male--she's affirming both her autonomy AND making a claim on her worthiness AND kinda making claim on him.

Robert, by abusing her and not recognizing her as worthy enough, she has decided, doesn't get to have further domination to her through reproduction. He does not get to totally "own" her through her children. If Cersei had any kids by Robert, it's very likely she would have hated them or at least really neglected them. If she hadn't tried to abort them even late into the pregnancy and risk her own life (I'm talking purposefully falling down the stairs or getting her hands on "cheap" moontea that could have wracked her body and/or killed her). It's her last line, her means of establishing control over herself...like Daena defying Baelor.

But bc unlike Rhaenyra, Cersei was Queen Consort, was never blood related to any royal, is and always will be just the Queen Mother AND if Robert had known any of her kids weren't his...GRRM has said that Robert would likely kill them. Cersei can "get away" with her kids looking more like her when they should at least have one have dark hair (again, all 3 have her & Lannister eyes and hair..ironic how like Rhaenyra, there are 3 kids) because:

neither Robert nor Tywin know about her kids; Robert definitely would have at least gone off the handle and tried to kill her and the kids, and I'm not sure about Tywin except that he'd never let go of his hold of the throne after years of his perceived and real humiliations to get close to it

Robert Baratheon owes his final victory of the rebellion to Tywin and the strongest support for his reign to Tywin Lannister, who has worked towards getting his blood on the throne for years and unlike to let a little blonde hair stop him.

On the other hand, while Viserys I's status is definitely protecting Rhaenyra and her children, Viserys, like Tywin, is the one who got his daughter into the mess she is in in the first place through his poor planning and wanting the "easiest" solution. Cersei doesn't have any other great support other than Tywin and Robert, while Rhaenyra at least had the Velaryons and multiple lords to fight for her in the name of chosen-heir-first. If Robert were to even try to harm her kids, he'd think of Tywin first before doing anything drastic, but there's still the possibility he'd be so angry as to actually blindly attack her or her kids and Tywin can't be everywhere. That and there was no universe where Cersei could have married Jaime as Rhaenyra should have been able to with Daemon (Targs have that overall, cultural ability--even with Starks marrying their uncles to nieces twice!); but Cersei pursues a relationship with Jaime anyway...because she wants to, makes her feel more like the "perfect" being, it brings her a sense of bodily autonomy and control after her marital abuse, and it's the most convenient thing.

As I already stated, Cersei isn't actually thinking of the real politics as motivation to be with Jaime so much as the self-soothing fantasies made from her own yearning desire for power and perfection. It's not truthful to make it as if she were this mastermind or even cares to know real strategy or at least far-thinking when she has never done that except for the wildfyre...which was a disastrous and stupid plan by its execution (ahem, Aerys II). Tywin may hide that her kids aren't Robert for the sake of reputation and keep them safe like Viserys, but his feelings in doing so are not in the same realm of loving even though, kinda like how it is Viserys' fault that Rhaenyra was in the position that she was in, Tywin is at fault for Cersei's. Her being married to Robert. Cersei is a pure pawn piece to Tywin, more than her brothers, because she is a woman and he will never allow her to be his heir. At the same time, it is by Tywin's support that Robert was able to cinch his butt on the throne.

You can read more HERE, as this analysis comes from blankwhiteshield. Cersei didn't have that much access to anyone else her entire life, even as a Consort, because, once more women do not have the same mobility as men (scroll down to "Medieval/Westerosi Noble Male vs. Female Mobility") and she is neither a Tyrell nor a Martell.

C) The Velaryons, if people really want to use their race to "prove" anything

1. If you cannot read throughly, you will miss the argument.

Some people have opted to use the "why aren't Rhaenyra's sons not darker?! It's so obvious that she had bastards!" thing. This assumes that these same people want to use real-life genetics as their main crutch.

With more people showing their kids online, we ourselves are getting to witness that interracial couples often have children in various colorations, from very thin, pale-blond-light-eyed to darker-skinned, darker eyes, coilier hair.

Ryan Condal and other producers/writers of HotD made the Velaryons historically black with no hint of blue, gray, or green eyes like Milly Alcock, Emma D'arcy, and Paddy Considine. Or vice versa. (Putting purple eyes in either post or contacts for some actors who are willing could have helped here, but the point is that the Velaryons who don't have Targs for direct relatives [Rhaenys being Laenor & Laena's mother] and Targs only share the pale hair part of Valyrian appearance).

Valaena Velaryon (the 3 conquerors' mother) would then be also black/darker skinned. Alyssa Velaryon (Rhaena--rider of Dreamfyre--, Jaehaerys I, & Alysanne's mom) would also be black/mixed/have darker skin.

Therefore every Targ after the Conquerors & before Aegon V are visibly black/mixed/darker-skinned (including Daemon, Viserys, and Rhaenyra)

After Aegon V marries the white Betha Blackwood, the Targs continue to marry lighter women, and thus the Targs get lighter and lighter until we get Dany & her siblings being white-white.

If we were to actually introduce black/mixed Rhaenyra, her kids with Laenor should also have inherited the eyes/hair/etc. of Valyrians. But even if she, this should-be-mixed-Rhaenyra had just white-Harwin as her lover and father to her kids....her kids could very well turn out very similar as they do now. Ironically, despite his own intentions and words, Condal set us up with a reason to believe that Rhaenyra should be even less suspected of having bastards even with the boys' dark hair and eyes.

Again, Because she would be visibly mixed, they also should be visibly mixed. Even though they aren't Laenor's biologically.

Not only does Rhaenys canonically have dark hair in the actual book, but her cousin Borros has the Baratheon dark hair that canon!Rhaenys supposedly (if we follow true genetics) and likely could have given Laenor to pass onto his own kids. Thereby he also really missed an opportunity to show how "obvious" the greens' slander was not working outside of us looking at Alicent's frenetic movements. See how this change could have actually given a more nuanced revelation and element to the story the writers created?!

In HotD, they should have all display variances of hair texture & eye color, including Jaehaerys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra themselves. However, this change and the inconsistency it brings up are not things that I "hate" in of themselves because we do need more than just white people in our mainstream fantasy until we force people to produce actual black/African fantasies....and there are a lot of them.

What I criticize is that Ryan Condal made it very clear that he sees the race play as a means to make it that much more "obvious" that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's, which both cheapens the value of how much misogyny plays a role against Rhaenyra as well as cheapens and emphasizes the inconsistency of how the writers use the Velaryons' blackness/darkness into it just being a political tool to audiences. (Entertainment Weekly)

"Once we had that idea, it just felt like everything fell into place," Condal recalls.

And this is what this Cosmopolitan Black critic had to say, but more eloquently than me:

Nowhere in the first season does HotD mention the Blackness of its few Black characters. All we’re told is that House Velaryon has blood from Old Valyria, which means they are really close to the Targaryens and often marry each other to keep the bloodline “pure.” Nothing wrong with that, but since the Velaryons are Black, shouldn’t all Velaryons have Afrocentric features? The casting department didn’t think so, apparently. One of the main storylines in the first season is the denial that Rhaenyra Targaryen’s children are bastards even though they have white skin and loose curly black hair while their “father” is Laenor Velaryon, a white-haired Black man with dreads. The book Fire & Blood (which the show is adapted from) also follows this plot point. But the Velaryons aren’t Black in the book, meaning it’s somewhat believable or at the very least plausible that Rhaenyra’s children are Leanor’s. I know this is a fantasy show, but there’s something really cringe about (1) trying to pass three obviously white children off as Black and (2) making the one Black family on the show the center of a *checks notes* paternity scandal. Even if House of the Dragon were only following the book’s plot point—the question of the legitimacy of Rhaenyra’s children—the decision to cast House Velaryon and thus Laenor as Black means that race and racial connotations needed to be introduced as well. You shouldn’t cast a white character as a person of color and then ignore their racial identity.

There were African Christians in the medieval-e/modern pd. worlds; however, this sort of paternity check-thru-race is a post-slavery, modern element.

And while race and genetics in the ASoIaF books are strange, it is not strange enough to eschew skin coloring OR the implications of being the only house that is only/mainly black-skinned altogether and what we readers would expect from that. House Velaryon would have intermarried, for example...have they been marrying each other? siblings, first cousins, and/or second cousins--or more often with other houses? How often for each type of marriage? If the last, why do they all still retain their West Afro-leaning features 90% of the time, even by ASoIaF standards of genetics? Are the other Valyrian houses exclusively black (Celtigar)? Will Rhaenyra's master-of-coin Bartimos Celtigar also be black (from episode 10, no it doesn't look like it)? If not, then that just further shows how the Velaryon-being-black change hasn't been enough to make HotD a model standout in creating meaningful diversity in mainstream fantasy media.

Neglecting the story, the implications of introducing race even with the argument of there being African Christians in the medieval era being accepted (though when you go back, it's more of complicated than that), and thus making race more of a downplayed object instead of an identity.

2. What does this mean, then?

With HotD's changes and by the argument of "Rhaenyra's kids are obviously not black!", if they had authentically used race and skin color when they said it mattered within the show (Condal already said this!), then show!Rhaenyra, by THEIR logice, should be visibly mixed, not white

AND:

show!Rhaenyra's actually should able to pick any lover of any coloring (as long as they have a trustworthy character) bc her kids will always logically/visually "pass" as Laenor's, no matter their actual father; her boys, no matter what would likely have darker skin or be mixed with their array of coloring, because SHE would have that

Laenor, being their official dad, is already black and further showing how their paternity wouldn't be as suspect if it weren't for social manipulation

their appearance wouldn't be as controversial WITHOUT the greens sowing doubt

again, she'd have more ability to choose than Cersei, but bc Rhaenyra in HotD and F&B is still the heir to the throne instead of a regular noblewoman and goes to Dragonstone to rule it independently. Thereby meeting with more people face to face without being as restricted as she would have been as a Queen Consort.

Why have have the comment abt race and skin color at all? if it's not not actually going to matter in-world?! And if it doesn't matter, it was a tasteless, sexist and racist "joke" on Condal's part.

Without the greens, the only reason why anyone would suspect Rhaenyra's kids was bc Laenor was open-secret-gay & chose of his own volition to not be around her as often as people expect married couples to be.

Like I implied in section B), neither are in either Rhaenyra's control nor her fault. If people argue she should have forced Laenor to stay by order, I don't doubt that some of those people are the ones who would say/have said she should have forced him to have sex with her despite his lack of desire, lack of enthusiastic consent, and inability OR that she should have had a slave from any of the Valyrian Free Cities to impregnate her. All of which is rape and/or exploitation of lower-classed persons' bodies.

To the HotD writers...Give us more! Develop a stonger sense of the court's attitude of Rhaenyra and Alicent's and their respective families!!! Give us a pan or something of the courtiers having silent "fun" but doing it so as to not get either Otto's eye or move themselves apart from Alicent's favor. Something that shows the audience that Alicent is trying really hard to smear Rhaenyra out of spite, and therefore puts her in the narrative position of being wrong/villainous for her internalized misogyny through slight implied mocking. If we go through with just the *shrug* of making ASoIaF genetics "that way", still, Condal's still neglected the real implications of making the entire Velaryon house black and all other houses white/predominantly white.

Again, IF he wants to encourage the audience to rely so much on genetics to castigate Rhaenyra!!! If the audience does so without his input, then this still applies to those who would do so to make their arguments against Rhaenyra!!!.

Finally....

HotD tried to make as if they were doing something more meaningful with HotD and a project that image and for some it worked bc racist/sexist consumerism, but it still failed to recreate the meaningful drama and convey the subtle & unsubtle criticisms of many ideologies, historical actions, and social structures that the original story was going for by not thinking of the implications of having mixed/black Velaryon people. And it was probably because they focused more on diluting the sides, in what ozymalek says was made by their own misunderstanding F&B:

The Dance era in "Fire and Blood" is something that will fundamentally cause the feelings of cognitive dissonance. I think this is why people initially disliked this book when it first came out. It did not provide easy answers, it was written as a historical account, the in-universe historians were clearly biased. People, however, had trouble realizing who the historians are biased for and against. Team Green would have you think that "F&B" is biased against the Greens, because their allegiance as maesters clearly being to Hightowers notwithstanding, they could not evade simple historical facts: that most of the kingdom supported Rhaenyra, that Greens were horrendously misogynistic and that her usurpation was clearly wrong. That's why, approaching it from the "choose your favorite war criminal" point of view, it was difficult for Greens to accept that their preferred side is so cartoonishly evil - obviously bias must have been involved, even though the only pro-Black narrator of F&B is Mushroom, the rest are Greens. The maester's anti-Targaryen bias, however, manages to sneak in and mess with the reader's balance, causing said cognitive dissonance. It's hard to deal with it as a reader, let alone as a showrunner who's trying to adapt a story in which not everything is set in stone. They incorrectly assumed that, because they are constantly forced to question what is happening in the story, the bias is with the underlying idea that there was a correct side. As such, they assumed that all the inconsistencies result from maesters not choosing to view it that way. Ryan Condal repeatedly stated that he does not want watchers to pick sides, while George RR Martin embraces it and even encourages it (and I think that he himself has picked the Blacks). Such is our nature as human beings. So they decided that they have to balance the scales.

They really refused to consider & imagine how the difference in race would change the narrative of the Dance and consequently think of ways to make it still work for the story's purpose of showing how people can manipulate self-images and others' images, especially when it concerns women and women in the pursuit of access to higher powers. It refused to actually work to integrate the Blackness, fine. but then it OR the audience--who praised said move--also tried to use said Blackness to make meaning but make meaning against Rhaenyra.

So now there are critical plotholes and missed opportunities in the narrative that just make the story more boring, flatter, and deceptively simpler while still converting misogynist and racist sentiments into stereotypical narratives--thereby discouraging its audience from engaging in proper insight/observing patterns of social manipulation in the misogyny against Rhaenyra, as well as the show's own different flavors of misogyny in Alicent, Laena, Rhaenys' etc.'s re-writings.

They really want Rhaenyra's actions of sexual autonomy to be either criticized, seen as a flaw of hers, or make her agency thematically subordinate to the misogynist expectations that some may feel should guide Rhaenyra's rule/self-conduct. Therefore, it's encouraging the audience to look at Rhaenyra as a/the negative agent, to comply with the misogynist forces and their logic against her. The agent of society-destruction instead of someone trying to move through a society set up more against her than for her. To judge a female leader differently than a male one, judge her "worthiness" to rule more by her willingness to be as traditional and misogynist against herself. To be more complicit with the status quo.

When really no one should genuinely internalize the need to impress or "prove" one's worthiness to people who already believe your gender, skin, etc. justifies your exclusion from certain positions of power, rights, and privileges. That is like asking nicely or behaving like a "good girl" to heart (not just using it as covers) & expecting the same treatment men have/the same rights. This is how show!Alicent thinks and what gets her into that frantic state that makes her think less clearly than she could, adding to the anxiety and abuse she already receives from her father and Larys Strong. Unfortunately, Alicent's belief in "duty" and the absolute "sacrifice" that mainly women must make for a "orderly" aristocratic society just serves to imprison her.

That quote is the real embodiment of what Ned was gonna condemn Cersei and her children to. I would dare anyone to call that “mercy” or “compassion”.

And he seriously thought Cersei was gonna go sweet into that good night and simply resign herself to death, accept exile and the (belated) slaughter of her children & brother ?

Maybe Robert souldn’t have beat and raped Cersei in the first place, did Ned and the fandom ever think about that ?

I wrote abt this HERE, how I disliked Ned for this, no matter how some people will say: "but they are bastards" or "he thinks it's his duty". Okay, and? He knew that this would likely cause one of the biggest uproars and he'd still be responsible for the deaths of children (no matter how annoying or cruel Joffrey was, his siblings wouldn't deserve it noe should be subjected to it).

*EDITED POST* (3/3/24)

I assume that you are talking about this recent REBLOG I just put up about Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, and Tywin.

The entire point(s) of that post was to:

point out how Rhaegar's cheating was not the cause of Elia and their kids' death.

argue against the idea he was entirely or mostly responsible and also want to say that the entire dynasty's collapse was only caused by his infidelity. That such a thing could be caused by such.

argue some people have conflated Victorian (a hyperbole) family values of fidelity or their own personal past with a bigger, interconnected political condition that was a maelstrom in Rhaegar's case. While ignoring his concerted attempts to even get rid of his own father before.

argue that some people think that somehow, just staying with Elia would have prevented her death, or that it was easy to ascertain that Aerys and Tywin and everyone else would act as they did if we were him -> as I already listed in that post.

And this is what I said about Cersei:

The text never once explains or indicates how Elia herself feels about Rhaegar or Lyanna, but we have people claiming that she was emotionally wracked by this? Maybe upset for her reputation or shocked, but we still don't know who this woman was by personality, this all the guesswork based on her heritage, her health and the arrangedness of the marriage itself. One also cannot claim that she was something like Cersei was/would be, feeling totally humiliated, jilted of a perfect and glorious life, hating Rhaegar, etc. Nothing in the text gives strong evidence of that.

She is not only hateful towards Robert because he beats and rapes her (completely justified); she hates him for treating her as second place to someone she sees as inferior to herself and someone who "stole" Rhaegar from her. BUT she is hateful toward Robert & compares him to Rhaegar specifically bc for years she has wondered what life would have been like for her if she married Rhaegar instead of this man who she thought would at least appreciate her for the qualities she's told to have/be the best for a woman...but instead gets an abusive, self-deluded man who lusts for a girl who never even liked him AND was not the idea of a "perfect" woman to Cersei, but is still her competition for male favor (a woman's political key to access to power).

(*I must bring a more nuanced point about this, though and note that aside from Robert whispering some other girl's name on their wedding night, Cersei also has had an issue with not "measuring" up to the masculinized standards of competent personhood, so Robert's revealing that he wants and continues to want Lyanna over her pokes at Cersei's deepest insecurity.

GameofThronesHistorian on TikTok notes how Cersei expected to marry Rhaegar after Tywin dumbly got her hopes up and she spent a lot of her time fantasizing about being with him and being Queen but he marries Elia, Aerys basically insults the entire house along with Tywin, and her hopes are dashed along with a bit of her pride ostensibly (nobles get a lot of their pride from their house identity). She finally gets to be Queen (the position dangled in front of her like a prize since childhood, snatched away, and now she "has" it back), but she discovers that the queenship doesn't make up for Robert's clear preference for the same girl "her" Rhaegar got himself supposedly killed for.

When Cersei married Robert she expected to finally overcome the haunting legacy both girls left behind her own insecurities & ruined hopes. When she actually gets to be Queen, she discovers that this thing she thought would "fix" everything, assure her longlasting dignity and power. and that was been long promised to her cannot make up for the slight Robert gives her and thus traps her in a marriage that quickly becomes abusive.

For someone like Cersei, who grew up hearing that she is the most beautiful person around while having almost nothing for herself other than that and later being queen as Tywin always promised to her name [bc her patriarchal society affords way less in terms of prestige, value, and recognized respect to women as it does men & boys AND makes physical features comparatively final measure of worth for girls and women], it's not that hard to see that Cersei's feelings are not baseless or totally irrational. Her already existing insecurities mushroomed into a plague that also sharpened her need to be "perfect" and counteract the feeling of never measuring up. Therefore, her classist-generated need to self-empower evolves into her stomping on others to get power and the self-satisfaction always distant from her.*)

Neither her feelings nor Catelyn's for Robert/Ned cheating on them are things one could automatically guess are the exact same as Elia's toward Rhaegar being with Lyanna. Even without the beating/raping, because they are unlikely to be similar women w/exactly the same experiences.

I say this to point out that Cersei, while definitely being a victim of domestic abuse, still has a specific personality, history before him, and expectations of herself from her class position and gender. From those expectations, an idea--and the need to constantly reaffirm that idea bc of how little room it leaves one for developing a constant sense of self apart from it--of her exceptionality. Cersei is a NLOG and very much by a social-inspired inner compulsion.

What we know about Elia apart from her having kids and being married to Rhaegar comes from Oberyn and her Martell family members. And we get barely much from there (compared to other characters) aside from how she had had her own mind (her voicing her desire against a potential match by his farting). We have her in her early/mid-teens at the Lannisters wanting to see baby Tyrion and thinking/acting like she thinks him cute and witnessing child Cersei pinch baby Tyrion's penis (which already shows us a deep resentment against male privilege at such a young age and how it turned to who her father blamed for the absence of her mother). We don't have a PoV from Oberyn, so we get a few sentences of his feelings towards her in dialogue and dialogue is not as rich as the direct inner thoughts of characters. He does not have a reflective view of who Elia was as much as current/adult Ned Stark for Lyanna (who had PoVs) because he's focused on revenge. Even Ned could have thought more about other things that showcased Lyanna's personality independent of her engagement to Robert, but Oberyn seemed much more aware of who Elia was than Ned with Lyanna.

We don't know who adult Elia really is like we do Cersei, just her position, she was sick most of the time, and that she was Dornish. We do not get her life with Rhaegar, we do not get details nor suggestions in-text of her dynamic with Rhaegar as much as we get with him & Lyanna.

In a Con, GRRM has reportedly gone on to state that Elia and Rhaegar's relationship was "complex". Does this mean that there was affection but a mutual understanding that there was no deeper romance? Does this mean that if Elia were healthier, she would want to develop one with him? Either way, would she want it to be monogamous or not? Again, she's from Dorne, she's more likely to be more okay with it being an "open" marriage AND it being known Rhaegar has a side lover as she has enjoyed more body autonomy and a stronger sense of her own political autonomy from childhood.

But while she is Dornish, after she married Rhaegar she had to live in a nonDornish court in a nonDornish region while raising children, knowing that a man versus a woman having extramarital lovers are treated very differently. [a fuller explanation by dwellordream HERE]. For her own image and social standing, would she want him to be discrete even more than if they were just minor nobles? Or is she secure in the knowledge that her kids will always inherit before any of Lyanna's bastards (would she be, how likely is this) and de-prioritize how bad Rhaegar's cheating makes her look for her own safety (she nearly died the last time she gave birth)? We simply don't know for sure, even though I believe that Elia knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna bastard and wasn't against it.

this is essentially just a reception, so you could scroll past if you need. I basically free-write these things.

The answers to all these questions for Cersei are too obvious. We have Cersei's PoVs and her interactions with multiple people with both PoVs and with none--either dead or still alive by the last published book. And we get her own PoVs to draw her motivations and psychological processes and make better, credible conclusions.

Cersei's Lannister self-defensive-exceptionalist mindset feeds into her believing herself to be the paragon of any living woman, especially paramours, and mistresses. That PLUS her own need to have something close to or the same authority and power a man could have in her world, which she buys through sex, giving up some of her agency during some sexual encounters, and making herself NLOG to (mistakenly) gain men's loyalty or at least obedience to her commands. All of which is always in flux and depends on the person. To repeat myself, she very much cares about and is emotionally dependent on her nobility, her titles, her rank, her Lannister name, etc to accrue power for herself to her own detriment and to the abuse of others, which worsens or gains justification under Robert's abuse.

On the other hand, Cersei, her whole life, has been externally defined through a sexual lens. Yes, even in childhood. Sex and reproduction. She isn't a "whore" or a "slut" for then using what people used to objectify her into a weapon or device for her own intentions when she has learned that that is a direct way of accruing others' interest in her own and her kids' advancement. Cersei, while loyal & protective to her children, also--from her own experiences with powerlessnes from her gendered value in her family and society--tends to be less patient with them and be less able to address their emotional distresses. She seems abusive towards at least Tommen. And yes, in a feudal world, one can gain much political power & resources through their kids' claims and/or positions of power -> Tommen or Joffrey were kings and she could be Queen Dowager/Mother, the highest female rank a noblewoman could have...at least how GRRM wrote Westerosi society.

This is the crux of her motives: she learned that power-as-masculine AND power = male sexual dominance. Unlike the Tyrells, who have a better grasp of using both actual soft power and hard power (mostly yhr first) to maintain social dominance, Tywin is more the silent, golden rock that intimidates you into following him. Power, she learned from her father, is less diplomatic and more forceful and fear-inspired, violent, physical, and from Robert, sexual. All traditional qualified as masculine and assigned to men, who are given the privilege to hold/lead armies and wield weapons in battles:

In medieval times a woman could not bear arms; therefore a woman could not take on a role which, even symbolically, required her to carry arms. In medieval times a woman who took on an overt military role was an aberration. Lyon, A. (2006). "The place of women in European royal succession in the middle ages."

From childhood, she absorbed this ideology and "decided" to essentially prove she was "not like the other girls." And the loss of her mother to childbirth, how her father never truly coped, would have had her rush to gain his love, and when that didn't work, to gain his respect. But she is female, so Tywin never will. She learned that being anything "feminine" is inherently "weak", and so she tried her entire life to differentiate herself from the "weak" women around her. Cersei is the ultimate NLOGs.

She gave up her sexual agency for her children (yes, the same ones who she abused at one point) to shore up defenses for their/her own position and safety, as she wouldn't in a hundred years have sex with some people willingly if it did not come with the expectation of their support, resources, etc. Class/masculinity-perceived-through-hypersexuality is to her, strength even as it puts her at a disadvantage as a woman, as she's that much more open to scandal if the odds go out of her favor and the Lannisters lose much of their power and the others' fear of them.

She imagines herself as Robert/in the male/"dominant" position (she herself imagines that position as male, the place of power she internalized as prime her whole life) when she's sexually rubbing and fingering Taena of Myr. She continues to finger her painfully despite Taena protesting in pain, thus herself becoming a sexual abuser so she can feel the power and defy Robert/men. Power that she learns directly resides in using sexual ties or performing sexual abuses. Taena also, as Cersei's "spy" on Margarey, and as one far beneath her rank, is also a person who acts as socially lower than Cersei herself, which feeds into Cersei's ego. So Cersei banks much of herself and self-worth on her class to a dangerous fault.

She has basically felt compelled to buy into that exceptionalism at full speed to compensate for her lack of power and feelings of inferiority from that lack. Cersei is rather a pretty complicated woman, while also being very simple. Her class position as aristocratic and Queen Dowager/Mother and her desire for power in the aristocratic space are directly related and inspired by her long sexual objectification. This is where gender and class intersect. Her hatred of Robert is obviously justified and comes from her long struggle to gain and keep autonomous power from men; that doesn't mean that she also doesn't eventually use her class and internalize female inferiority as her final crutch.

Cersei's personality and her abuse from others and against others are two related and unique things informing each other from her young childhood, especially evidenced by her thoughts and actions of her youth before she married Robert, how her father & those others around her treated her, and her observations of the events before Robert rebelled concerning women's abilities. Elia is, by contrast, a silent victim so it's easier to project a lot onto her the way it isn't for Cersei. Or Catelyn.

*EDITED POST* (9/21/23)

Probably from this recent post that itself has 3 links to other posts where I talk about Cersei as a character.

Um...when did I ever either imply or directly say that Jaime was "a victim of patriarchy and that his gender doesn’t favor him over Cersei"? Or express that he was better than his sister, morally? Or express that Cersei deserved to die more than he did?

Perhaps you have that impression because I never talked about Jaime exclusively once, or you're just going off of what you recently read and horribly misinterpreted the purpose and argument of that post. If the latter, I advise you to reread. If the first, I don't write about Jaime much simply because he doesn't interest me as much as Cersei or Tyrion, no one asked me my thoughts about him, and I'm not thinking of him apart from his relationship with Cersei or Tyrion. His knighthood and masculinity are...not "easy", but direct enough for me to not dwell as much as his other siblings' issues. (look to this post by blankwhiteshield about Jaime) I generally care more about women, children, and other marginalized people in fiction, even when I do sympathize with some white cis straight men some of the time.

I mean pre-Brienne Jaime. That's just how GRRm wrote his arc.

For me, blankwhiteshield's posts about Jaime HERE and HERE both suffice to give me a picture of who Jaime is bc they fill in some blanks I had in my pre-existing assessment of Jaime. Which actually wasn't favorable, anon. I find Jaime to actually be very annoying, and no, I do not think that he is Cersei's victim. He is deluded in some ways as much as her and is not a good person because of the abuse and emotional neglect they all get from Tywin/Westerosi society. I actually should have, since again, there were blanks. You can take a look at those links as well.

Look, Cersei is evil & abusive AS WELL AS a victim of domestic abuse woman & of misogyny since childhood. These are not mutually exclusive nor does it NOT mean that her domestic abuse only and directly caused her power-hungriness and need to control if not every, most aspect of her life and those she sees will help her get or maintain control and a good image of herself. Neither the abuse nor misogyny against her erases the fact that she develops hatred towards women, going so far as to violently and sexually objectify them like w/Taena. (Her using what she's observed men do to affirm power and copying it). Or that she pinched her baby brother's penis at a very young age, showing her classist and blase willingness to target children/one of the most vulnerable groups for her own sense of control over her husband, family, etc., and political power. She is also very willing to sacrifice/risk the entire city for her own control of power, similar to Aerys II. Cersei is complicated and there is nuance to her character, but she is unmistakably evil simultaneously. What I like about her or what I find compelling about her (if you haven't read the post about it) is that I can understand her motivations, and relate in some ways, and from practically babyhood she's been trying to be essentially "good enough" and perfect through external, social values of competency BUT also as someone has said: her need for perfection and power and total love comes across as pure in its own sort of twisted way. Her emotions are so intense and uncontrolled and she remains totally unaware of her loneliness that she comes across as childlike.

*EDITED POST* (11/6/23)

Watched GoT before reading the books. 

I genuinely loved & was fascinated by Cersei (as a character). There was never a dull moment with her and her nonsense.

She actually made sense behaviorally:

[me] raised to believe in the exceptionalism of her house and her father, overly entitled due to her need to resist her father's devaluing of her, selling her body out for power, and her need to practice power. Her need to protect her kids and claim to put them before anything else was rife with hypocrisy, yet I also was moved by her losing Joffrey. Why? Because you could see she actually loved him in her own fucked up way and she herself was both understandable (in the sense that I could see how she turned out the way she did hoe the patriarchy failed her immensely), active, and not boring. I loved that she was bold and that she was bold enough, since childhood, to fuck her own brother and use the Targs as part of justification. I think of her self-inflicted loneliness that comes with her narcissism: she wants love and power but she can never truly accept the power and love she does receive (being Queen Dowager and having Jaime so into her) because she wants perfect, absolute power and to be seen/be "perfect"ly in control, in appearance, in manner and be equal to the sort of man she imagines she could be if she were Jaime...to be "Jaime" (also why and how she doesn't actually really understand or can relate to anyone, even her own lover since both were children) and to have all the power a woman or man can have over every other woman in Westeros. She's compelling because her desires are intense and clumsily handled. Kirby describes Cersei as "childlike' in her emotional control. For some, she's very relatable in how she self-sabotages her need for just...more. Some do not even have to be narcissistic to relate to Cersei so much as know what it feels like to realize you'll never have a thing denied to you and still desire it, sometimes go too far in trying to embody/obtain something like it.

[thoughts and being reminded after watching TikTok's Gamesof ThronesHistorian] Before Robert whispers some other girl's name on their wedding night, Cersei also has an issue with not "measuring" up to the masculinized standards of competent personhood, so Robert's revealing that he wants and continues to want Lyanna over her pokes at Cersei's deepest insecurity. Cersei expected to marry Rhaegar after Tywin dumbly got her hopes up and she spent a lot of her time fantasizing about being with him and being Queen--hopes are dashed after Rhaegar marries Elia instead when Aerys dismisses Tywin's suggestion--he calls Tywin a "servant", thus if Cersei ever heard this (she likely did) she would also have been mortified and jilted. After the rebellion goes in Robert's favor, she marries him and she finally gets to be Queen (the position dangled in front of her like a prize since childhood, snatched away, and now she "has" it back), she discovers that the queenship doesn't make up for Robert's clear preference for the same girl "her" Rhaegar got himself supposedly killed for. She thought she "won" against Lyanna & Elia, that they wouldn't "haunt" her ruined dreams, and that her marrying Robert would fix everything but the marriage only traps her with a man who will never see her without thinking of what he's amissing with Lyanna. And it quickly becomes abusive. For someone like Cersei, who grew up being told she is the most beautiful and thus an exemplar of women and having almost nothing for herself but that AND being queen as Tywin always promised to her own self (bc her patriarchal society affords way less in terms of prestige, value, and recognized respect to women as it does men & boys AND makes physical features comparatively final measure of worth for girls and women]), it's not that hard to see that Cersei's feelings are not baseless, totally irrational, nor groundless. Her already existing insecurities mushroomed into a plague that also sharpened her need to be "perfect", and counteract the feeling of never measuring up. Her emotions are so intense and uncontrolled and she remains totally unaware of her loneliness & she doesn't really ever address this properly to understand how she can at least psychologically and independently believe in her own strength and develop such strength, so she comes across as childlike.

That being said, I hated her as a person both in the show and the book because of her abusiveness of her brothers, her children, her delusions of grandeur, the disrespect and audacious spitting at the Martells (when it was Tywin who enabled Elia and her kids’ murders) -- I don’t remember, but it is totally within Cersei’s character to be glad for Elia’s murder out of jealousy and entitlement.

I also experienced abuse from my own mother and she is very much like Cersei in a lot of ways. It was refreshing to see that onscreen and in a book. But I also understand her because a huge part of why she is so evil and power-hungry is because of society and her own family continuously objectifying, dispossessing, and degrading her for being female, AND then she makes the unconscious-conscious "decision" to hate women and try to embody her father (unperceived flaws and all) to feel in control and accuse agency and political power for herself while using the avenues available to a woman simultaneously (making her extremely hypocritical). Tywin treated hers as a broodmare and political device more than he ever seemed to treat her as someone to care for and never seemed to have had a truly intimate moment with her. And, as a cis woman who looks "feminine" enough and who was born into a family that is heavily on the conservative side despite being of African descent, I have experienced what she has several times. Her hypocrisy, her hungry need, her falling into her own traps and the fact I can really understand her while being disgusted by her at times are what allure me to her.

Therefore, she is one of my favorite ASoIaF villains. Maybe even my top? IDK.

Check out these 2 Posts I wrote about her where I'm a bit more analytical about her: