#agot comment

*EDITED POST* (3/3/24)

I assume that you are talking about this recent REBLOG I just put up about Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, and Tywin.

The entire point(s) of that post was to:

point out how Rhaegar's cheating was not the cause of Elia and their kids' death.

argue against the idea he was entirely or mostly responsible and also want to say that the entire dynasty's collapse was only caused by his infidelity. That such a thing could be caused by such.

argue some people have conflated Victorian (a hyperbole) family values of fidelity or their own personal past with a bigger, interconnected political condition that was a maelstrom in Rhaegar's case. While ignoring his concerted attempts to even get rid of his own father before.

argue that some people think that somehow, just staying with Elia would have prevented her death, or that it was easy to ascertain that Aerys and Tywin and everyone else would act as they did if we were him -> as I already listed in that post.

And this is what I said about Cersei:

The text never once explains or indicates how Elia herself feels about Rhaegar or Lyanna, but we have people claiming that she was emotionally wracked by this? Maybe upset for her reputation or shocked, but we still don't know who this woman was by personality, this all the guesswork based on her heritage, her health and the arrangedness of the marriage itself. One also cannot claim that she was something like Cersei was/would be, feeling totally humiliated, jilted of a perfect and glorious life, hating Rhaegar, etc. Nothing in the text gives strong evidence of that.

She is not only hateful towards Robert because he beats and rapes her (completely justified); she hates him for treating her as second place to someone she sees as inferior to herself and someone who "stole" Rhaegar from her. BUT she is hateful toward Robert & compares him to Rhaegar specifically bc for years she has wondered what life would have been like for her if she married Rhaegar instead of this man who she thought would at least appreciate her for the qualities she's told to have/be the best for a woman...but instead gets an abusive, self-deluded man who lusts for a girl who never even liked him AND was not the idea of a "perfect" woman to Cersei, but is still her competition for male favor (a woman's political key to access to power).

(*I must bring a more nuanced point about this, though and note that aside from Robert whispering some other girl's name on their wedding night, Cersei also has had an issue with not "measuring" up to the masculinized standards of competent personhood, so Robert's revealing that he wants and continues to want Lyanna over her pokes at Cersei's deepest insecurity.

GameofThronesHistorian on TikTok notes how Cersei expected to marry Rhaegar after Tywin dumbly got her hopes up and she spent a lot of her time fantasizing about being with him and being Queen but he marries Elia, Aerys basically insults the entire house along with Tywin, and her hopes are dashed along with a bit of her pride ostensibly (nobles get a lot of their pride from their house identity). She finally gets to be Queen (the position dangled in front of her like a prize since childhood, snatched away, and now she "has" it back), but she discovers that the queenship doesn't make up for Robert's clear preference for the same girl "her" Rhaegar got himself supposedly killed for.

When Cersei married Robert she expected to finally overcome the haunting legacy both girls left behind her own insecurities & ruined hopes. When she actually gets to be Queen, she discovers that this thing she thought would "fix" everything, assure her longlasting dignity and power. and that was been long promised to her cannot make up for the slight Robert gives her and thus traps her in a marriage that quickly becomes abusive.

For someone like Cersei, who grew up hearing that she is the most beautiful person around while having almost nothing for herself other than that and later being queen as Tywin always promised to her name [bc her patriarchal society affords way less in terms of prestige, value, and recognized respect to women as it does men & boys AND makes physical features comparatively final measure of worth for girls and women], it's not that hard to see that Cersei's feelings are not baseless or totally irrational. Her already existing insecurities mushroomed into a plague that also sharpened her need to be "perfect" and counteract the feeling of never measuring up. Therefore, her classist-generated need to self-empower evolves into her stomping on others to get power and the self-satisfaction always distant from her.*)

Neither her feelings nor Catelyn's for Robert/Ned cheating on them are things one could automatically guess are the exact same as Elia's toward Rhaegar being with Lyanna. Even without the beating/raping, because they are unlikely to be similar women w/exactly the same experiences.

I say this to point out that Cersei, while definitely being a victim of domestic abuse, still has a specific personality, history before him, and expectations of herself from her class position and gender. From those expectations, an idea--and the need to constantly reaffirm that idea bc of how little room it leaves one for developing a constant sense of self apart from it--of her exceptionality. Cersei is a NLOG and very much by a social-inspired inner compulsion.

What we know about Elia apart from her having kids and being married to Rhaegar comes from Oberyn and her Martell family members. And we get barely much from there (compared to other characters) aside from how she had had her own mind (her voicing her desire against a potential match by his farting). We have her in her early/mid-teens at the Lannisters wanting to see baby Tyrion and thinking/acting like she thinks him cute and witnessing child Cersei pinch baby Tyrion's penis (which already shows us a deep resentment against male privilege at such a young age and how it turned to who her father blamed for the absence of her mother). We don't have a PoV from Oberyn, so we get a few sentences of his feelings towards her in dialogue and dialogue is not as rich as the direct inner thoughts of characters. He does not have a reflective view of who Elia was as much as current/adult Ned Stark for Lyanna (who had PoVs) because he's focused on revenge. Even Ned could have thought more about other things that showcased Lyanna's personality independent of her engagement to Robert, but Oberyn seemed much more aware of who Elia was than Ned with Lyanna.

We don't know who adult Elia really is like we do Cersei, just her position, she was sick most of the time, and that she was Dornish. We do not get her life with Rhaegar, we do not get details nor suggestions in-text of her dynamic with Rhaegar as much as we get with him & Lyanna.

In a Con, GRRM has reportedly gone on to state that Elia and Rhaegar's relationship was "complex". Does this mean that there was affection but a mutual understanding that there was no deeper romance? Does this mean that if Elia were healthier, she would want to develop one with him? Either way, would she want it to be monogamous or not? Again, she's from Dorne, she's more likely to be more okay with it being an "open" marriage AND it being known Rhaegar has a side lover as she has enjoyed more body autonomy and a stronger sense of her own political autonomy from childhood.

But while she is Dornish, after she married Rhaegar she had to live in a nonDornish court in a nonDornish region while raising children, knowing that a man versus a woman having extramarital lovers are treated very differently. [a fuller explanation by dwellordream HERE]. For her own image and social standing, would she want him to be discrete even more than if they were just minor nobles? Or is she secure in the knowledge that her kids will always inherit before any of Lyanna's bastards (would she be, how likely is this) and de-prioritize how bad Rhaegar's cheating makes her look for her own safety (she nearly died the last time she gave birth)? We simply don't know for sure, even though I believe that Elia knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna bastard and wasn't against it.

this is essentially just a reception, so you could scroll past if you need. I basically free-write these things.

The answers to all these questions for Cersei are too obvious. We have Cersei's PoVs and her interactions with multiple people with both PoVs and with none--either dead or still alive by the last published book. And we get her own PoVs to draw her motivations and psychological processes and make better, credible conclusions.

Cersei's Lannister self-defensive-exceptionalist mindset feeds into her believing herself to be the paragon of any living woman, especially paramours, and mistresses. That PLUS her own need to have something close to or the same authority and power a man could have in her world, which she buys through sex, giving up some of her agency during some sexual encounters, and making herself NLOG to (mistakenly) gain men's loyalty or at least obedience to her commands. All of which is always in flux and depends on the person. To repeat myself, she very much cares about and is emotionally dependent on her nobility, her titles, her rank, her Lannister name, etc to accrue power for herself to her own detriment and to the abuse of others, which worsens or gains justification under Robert's abuse.

On the other hand, Cersei, her whole life, has been externally defined through a sexual lens. Yes, even in childhood. Sex and reproduction. She isn't a "whore" or a "slut" for then using what people used to objectify her into a weapon or device for her own intentions when she has learned that that is a direct way of accruing others' interest in her own and her kids' advancement. Cersei, while loyal & protective to her children, also--from her own experiences with powerlessnes from her gendered value in her family and society--tends to be less patient with them and be less able to address their emotional distresses. She seems abusive towards at least Tommen. And yes, in a feudal world, one can gain much political power & resources through their kids' claims and/or positions of power -> Tommen or Joffrey were kings and she could be Queen Dowager/Mother, the highest female rank a noblewoman could have...at least how GRRM wrote Westerosi society.

This is the crux of her motives: she learned that power-as-masculine AND power = male sexual dominance. Unlike the Tyrells, who have a better grasp of using both actual soft power and hard power (mostly yhr first) to maintain social dominance, Tywin is more the silent, golden rock that intimidates you into following him. Power, she learned from her father, is less diplomatic and more forceful and fear-inspired, violent, physical, and from Robert, sexual. All traditional qualified as masculine and assigned to men, who are given the privilege to hold/lead armies and wield weapons in battles:

In medieval times a woman could not bear arms; therefore a woman could not take on a role which, even symbolically, required her to carry arms. In medieval times a woman who took on an overt military role was an aberration. Lyon, A. (2006). "The place of women in European royal succession in the middle ages."

From childhood, she absorbed this ideology and "decided" to essentially prove she was "not like the other girls." And the loss of her mother to childbirth, how her father never truly coped, would have had her rush to gain his love, and when that didn't work, to gain his respect. But she is female, so Tywin never will. She learned that being anything "feminine" is inherently "weak", and so she tried her entire life to differentiate herself from the "weak" women around her. Cersei is the ultimate NLOGs.

She gave up her sexual agency for her children (yes, the same ones who she abused at one point) to shore up defenses for their/her own position and safety, as she wouldn't in a hundred years have sex with some people willingly if it did not come with the expectation of their support, resources, etc. Class/masculinity-perceived-through-hypersexuality is to her, strength even as it puts her at a disadvantage as a woman, as she's that much more open to scandal if the odds go out of her favor and the Lannisters lose much of their power and the others' fear of them.

She imagines herself as Robert/in the male/"dominant" position (she herself imagines that position as male, the place of power she internalized as prime her whole life) when she's sexually rubbing and fingering Taena of Myr. She continues to finger her painfully despite Taena protesting in pain, thus herself becoming a sexual abuser so she can feel the power and defy Robert/men. Power that she learns directly resides in using sexual ties or performing sexual abuses. Taena also, as Cersei's "spy" on Margarey, and as one far beneath her rank, is also a person who acts as socially lower than Cersei herself, which feeds into Cersei's ego. So Cersei banks much of herself and self-worth on her class to a dangerous fault.

She has basically felt compelled to buy into that exceptionalism at full speed to compensate for her lack of power and feelings of inferiority from that lack. Cersei is rather a pretty complicated woman, while also being very simple. Her class position as aristocratic and Queen Dowager/Mother and her desire for power in the aristocratic space are directly related and inspired by her long sexual objectification. This is where gender and class intersect. Her hatred of Robert is obviously justified and comes from her long struggle to gain and keep autonomous power from men; that doesn't mean that she also doesn't eventually use her class and internalize female inferiority as her final crutch.

Cersei's personality and her abuse from others and against others are two related and unique things informing each other from her young childhood, especially evidenced by her thoughts and actions of her youth before she married Robert, how her father & those others around her treated her, and her observations of the events before Robert rebelled concerning women's abilities. Elia is, by contrast, a silent victim so it's easier to project a lot onto her the way it isn't for Cersei. Or Catelyn.

Disclaimer: I might edit this post a lot because I might realize some things to add.

1)

Did you know, anon, that the word “rape” in medieval society could either mean the sexual attack or just straight up taking a woman/girl away from her father/brother/husband’s control and authority? Or whenever a female laborer of a household has been taken out of her previous household, unlicensed by her lord?

Its roots come from the Latin word, “rapere” and its past participle “raptus”:

“the usual Latin word being stuprare "to defile, ravish, violate," which is related to stuprum (n.) "illicit sexual intercourse," literally "disgrace," stupere "to be stunned, stupefied" (see stupid). Latin raptus, past participle of rapere, used as a noun meant "a seizure, plundering, abduction”

Rape had the legal and cultural meaning of “property-taking”, sometimes more than when a someone forced a woman into sex. And it comes from ancient Roman culture, literature, and ideas medieval societies would be adopting into their own systems (Ovid's Fasti and Livy's History of Rome): The Rape of Lucrece. 

Of which medieval or Reniassance writers have made use to create doubt and suspicion for the state of their various female character’s chastity. Why does such matter in those stories? A woman’s chastity is linked to nation building and male-alliances. Marriages were for alliance, resources and power -- not love. Lyanna was arranged to marry Robert because of power and resources and to strengthen/solidify the alliance already set up by Ned and Robert’s friendship before.

So when we go back to A World of Ice and Fire, which says:

“Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.” (pg. 127)

We get the sense that the Starks percieved Rhaegar taking Lyanna and even just gifting her the crown of blue roses as defiling her female chastity. It wasn’t about her and what she wanted it was about Robert’s claim over her. And it was more about Ned’s ties to Robert and why he was sent to the Eyrie to be fostered in the first place, where he befriended Robert -- to create alliances amongst various families.

By contrast, Lyanna clearly did not want, respect, nor love Robert. When we read AGoT and keep track of Lyanna and Rhaegar (not their families, but themselves), we see that Lyanna wanted Rhaegar over Robert and they formed a genuine relationship.

She expressed to Ned:

"Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.”

(A Game of Thrones; Eddard IX )

AND

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

(A Game of Thrones; Eddard VII)

AND

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. "You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.” The king drained his cup.”

(A Game of Thrones; Eddard X)

So, if Robert, a canon and confirmed serial rapist (Cersei) and sexual abuser of children (that 14 year old sex worker that even Ned was like “...bro”) by the time he was 40ish, could not see that Lyanna did not want him and only thought of how pretty she was....while Rhaegar gifted her the crown of roses for her participation and victories at the Harrenhal tourney (however politically stupid it was)...who’s the true rapist here? Would Robert have respected Lyanna’s indifference to him if they did get married? Fuck no.

So if there were any persons defining and saying Lyanna was raped, it was never her or about sexual rape but those who would have benefited more from Lyanna marrying Robert & about “stealing” virginity.

And if you wonder why I bother to introduce medieval society when this is a fictional story with European medieval-inspired and not-so-differently modeled infrastructures and ideologies.....I can’t help you.

2)

Lyanna was 16 when they left for the Tower of Joy and had Rhaegar’s child, and they met when she was 15 at the Harrenhal tourney. 

We remember that she was betrothed to Robert before she turned 16, and Robert was 19/20 at the Harrenhal tourney. 

Rhaegar was 22/23 at the tourney and 23/24 when he went with Lyanna to the Tower of Joy.

Lyanna, by real, American, modern standards, is a minor/child by the time she’s pregnant with Rhaegar’s kid, but she’s an adult by the Westerosi age of majority. And she’s past marriageable age. 

To totally ignore that noble women of both real life and Westeros actively were treated as adults and like Rhaenyra Targaryen, and participated in politics as if they were adults is to:

deny any reality of their political and psychological autonomy and ability to reason

suppose that the man she chose broke a law or principle that is then recognized as a crime

....but if you go back to how I bring up the definition of “rape” and what that means for male-alliances, then you should realize that the crime that anyone would have thought what happened was that Lyanna was not passed into Robert’s authority (and out of her father and brothers’) and Rhaegar intercepted that licensed transfer.

3)

Robert is Rhaegar’s foil -- in literary analytical terms. Rhaegar displays an sense of responsibility and emotional intelligence (if not always a traditionally political one, his politics are unique for the very fact that they are intertwined with his magical theories) that Robert simply lacks and never bothers to develop.

A foil is:

a literary device designed to illustrate or reveal information, traits, values, or motivations of one character through the comparison and contrast of another character. A literary foil character serves the purpose of drawing attention to the qualities of another character, frequently the protagonist. This is effective as a means of developing a deeper understanding of a character by emphasizing their strengths and weaknesses. In addition, a literary foil allows writers to create a counterpart for the protagonist that puts their actions and choices in context.

And you can look up Rhaegar’s characterization by clicking HERE (of what I collected). But the universal consensus (except for Robert, but fuck him) is that Rhaegae r was generally both a good and impressive person. He was loved by most and even Robert didn't dislike him until he gave Lyanna the crown and stepped on his "turf".

It is actually more in Robert’s than Rhaegar’s character to rape, or rather, the text already has its self-indulgent and violent transgressive "Prince" character in Robert.

Robert thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna (the other meaning) because he would have (or even just had the thought of) raped her if like Rhaegar he had gotten Lyanna alone and away from her protectors. And we know that bc of how he feels like Cersei unjustly or irrationally keeps her body from him when he says she treats her vagina like it's "special", to paraphrase. To him Cersei is property; "rape" is unallowed transfer of a woman's body, not about her consent. He feels every man naturally thinks and would treat Cersei/Lyanna as he does/would have. (Meanwhile, can we say that his own friend, Ned, that he would do that to a woman?)

Rhaegar was a gloomy person and mimics the Byronic Hero trope; Lyanna was a lot more positive and vibrant, mimicking the Rebellious Princess or Spirited Young Lady tropes:

The Rebellious Princess is usually a teenager, typically brash (since it goes hand in hand with being rebellious). If she's not the hero, quite often she's the hero's love interest. This will sometimes invoke Marry for Love not only as another way for her to rebel, but to also get out of an Arranged Marriage. She usually qualifies as a Royal Who Actually Does Something.

Thus these two embody Forbidden Love, Opposites Attract, and dabble into Good, Bad Adultery.

Edit: I just realized that Rhaegar also fits into the Royal Who Actually Does Something Trope. Also, he and Lyanna are the inversed versions of their traditional gendered roles: Rhaegar becomes the musical, singing quieter lady imbued with remembrances for a time past while Lyanna actively participates in tourneys and masculinized quests/journeys like the Prince Charming/Knight in Shining Armor. Subversion of narrative and gender tropes!

I believe that Rhaegar loved and/or become enamoured with Lyanna for:

her bravery and passion

protecting those needing to protecting

her determination to stand up for what she thinks is right despite constrictions placed on her bc of youth and gender

positivity

Lyanna loved Rhaegar because:

sensed that he had much more of a sense of responsibility and the sense of grief that comes with his need to "fix" certain wrongs in their current society (thus was more...he cared more than any other person, regardless of gender, about what it means to rule apart from having power) than what she was used to or expected

that that responsibility went even beyond her

that that sense of responsibility went further than most noblemen’s while not trying to change or repress her, nor disregard her entire personality for his own sense of power or (for him, nonexistent) fantasies of her person

his passion

*EDIT* To go further, I believe that they weren't romantic/sexual until much later when Lyanna went to him, and their "forced proximity" made them know more of each other and their feelings grew enough for them to consummate it. *END OF EDIT*

And tropes =/= “trite” or cliche. You can think of them as building blocks for themes, storylines, and characterizations. We actually don't know for certain much of anything that happened right before and during the Rebellion between these two and even Rhaegar-Elia-their kids beyond the facts that:

Jon Snow is Lyanna Rhaegar's bastard son (too many clues in text to enumerate, esp about the Wall, blue roses, Bael the Bard... but also includes Ned's thoughts and his secrecy with Catelyn over Jon's mother's identity)

Lyanna CHOSE to leave with Rhaegar, he did not kidnap her (Neds memories)

war broke out FAR BEFORE Aerys' called Elia & their kids back to KL to make the Dornish more motivated to fight for him and nothing Rhaegar could do would have stopped that without also implicating himself AND Elia as traitors

Elia and Rhaegar had a "complex" relationship (GRRM'S own words); reveals that if Elia were to feel any type of way Abt her husband cheating, it's not that likely bc they romantically bonded, but that, as many fans state, she had worries for her children (even grandchildren), and the blow to her sociopolitical image similar to how Catelyn feels about Jon (for Catelyn it'd be worse bc she came to love Ned), and the possibility it would make her feel "worthless" or spited bc she was too ill to fulfill any sort of "duty" or responsibility as a wife (heirs and sexual satisfaction) AND esp Rhaegar's wife...as it's possible he told her about the prophecy & his own intentions

the war may have been triggered by Rhaegar and Lyanna, but they are not the full cause as things have been brewing for a while before they ever met AND what catapulted the realm into war was that Ned's father and brother decided to confront a crazy old man ALONE on his home turf demanding he kill his own son and summarily be killed and expose Ned to leading a war with none. We don't know what exactly prompted Lyanna to leave with Rhaegar, there are theories (Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lyanna being them is one I think could be true), but bc of that lack of information (and bc she was a very young girl with none of the sort of fuller agency as her brothers or father) I give Lyanna much more grace than I do for Brandon Stark and Ned's father, of whose thoughts were very clear through their actions.

Martin has painstakingly made sure to convey that their story and deaths are tragic not just for them and their families, but for Rhaegar’s ambition to remodel and begin to reverse the damages done in Westerosi history after having learned of the prophecy. *EDIT 1/12/25*

But as hamliet says in this post, perhaps Rhaegar's issue was that he didn't think through the the details of his plans & how it'd affect those closest to him--as he believed that if he just followed those "instructions" he believed existed for the prophecy to--and that said propecy required HIM--that everything would fall into place. Too idealistic, not practical and observant enough.

he forgets that he is himself human and all humans have weaknesses and die. ( Rhaegar had the best of intentions but the worst of the worst of implementation, in other words.

EDIT IN EDIT: The thought, I think, could be refined to Rhaegar believing that he could not truly make great change or save the material world without always keeping in mind the mystical-magical authors of that material world, that he believed that if he didn't follow that mystical prophecy, life as he knew it would summarily fall apart because the material can only be supported and exist if the mystical is sound.

I also think that he was kinda secretly exhausted by the pressure he puts on himself. That developed from the urgency of getting rid of the "corrupt king" that became is father, clean out the corruption of the royal family/court. And I think, now, that it is possible that Rhaegar believed Lyanna was the "love of his life" AND she was the "perfect" person to be at his side and fulfill the prophecy. He might have thought that because they understood each other in a way no one else ever had, that it "proved" she/their kid was the missing piece AND they could arrange all the "other" stuff later. *END OF EDIT*

4)

What defines a war prize, anon? Assuming you’ve read the post you seem to be referring to (this ONE), you should know that they are people or things that a warrior claims or is given as a reward for victory or conquest during/after a war/a battle.

Lyanna and Rhaegar form a romantic bond and they go off together before Rhaegar ever actually battles anyone or there was a war happening. Before Robert rebels and lords begin to gather weapons and troops. For one to be a war prize, a fighter must claim them as a reward for their militant feats, therefore AFTER any fighting they participated in. As I already hinted above with the Lyanna=Knight of the Laughing Tree theory, SOMETHING ELSE (not Rhaegar) was possibly threatening Lyanna (Aerys, who ordered this knight to be found), so she went to Rhaegar for protection.

It begins with him giving her the crown for Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhal tourney, passing his own wife. You can look at all the posts I have tagged “lyanna and rhaegar”, or click HERE for more.

Dany has an important role as the abolitionist queen in Essos, but she also needs to fulfill her Azor Ahai destiny. The coming BIG threat of the Others needs her dragons (even with them not being able to withstand climates like in many Essosi cities, there are also some Essosi places that do not have such hot and humid climates and we really don't need such danger so close to human beings) AND I also would love for her to reclaim the Iron throne just to get her own lick back. And because that is what she had been planning and continues to intend to do even with her being the Mereenese Queen right now. IDK, I hope GRRM comes out with Winds soon...

As for it being impossible vs possible, I think it's possible but messy with Quentyn's death as the Martells/Doran and the Sand Snakes now have a possible grudge or vendetta against Dany. Maybe they will blame her, esp after already losing Oberyn. I for one hope they do not bc it was all Quentyn's own dumbass fault for trying to "tame" a dragon when Dany/her advisors told him to just go back home...Dany was already marrying Hidzhar for peace in Meereen and prioritized her duty there. But human hearts and all...

Would it be good for Westeros? Depends on who you're thinking of. In the long run--for the smallfolk, hell yes. Again, compassionate queen of the little guy. With little male co-ruler intervention co-rulers for her, only her being at the helm thank you very much--we learn from Hidzhar, Quentyn, Cleon the Butcher, Victarion, Euron, and Young Griff/fAegon and the slave masters that for her to truly accomplish much of her plans, she needs to have male royal consorts who cannot overrule or contradict her or have a lot of resources to use against her--former brideoffoires of Tumblr, now starlight and seafoam on Twitter remarks this:

This ask has been sitting in my inbox for MONTHS!

*Post is Edited*

As a character from the book, not the show? Beyond interesting, as he feels grimy and decadent while also desperate for power/gaining an advantage over others. Liked his sarcasm when it's not trained on less fortunate, lower classes people or women/misogynist. Endlessly entertaining, his pain is compelling when he's vulnerable, and his darkest moments are repulsive. Enhanced and inspired by that pain and need for love or respect, by his pain.

As a person, he and I wouldn't be friends nor would I like or trust him ten feet away from me. I more semi-pity him than admire him.

There is a post/set of reblogs starting with black swallowtail butterfly expressing their hatred for how GRRM wrote out Tysha and her rape, using it mostly to highlight Tyrion and Tyrion himself not really valuing Tysha enough to really ever work at knowing her or looking for her years after she was gang-raped and sent off who knows where. Regarding how Tysha haunts him, I think that he uses sex and power imbalances (layered over that) to self-affirm. Sex and the ways they handled their sexual partners and why it opens both characters' secrets to their own detriment. They both think that they have much more control over those partners than they did or overestimate their own vulnerabilities and weaknesses or inattention to their partners' changing emotions and feelings regarding them, or what elements their partners are exposed to that would turn against them. Like Cersei, who loved/was obsessed with Rhaegar and being his wife, Tyrion is envious and in awe of the Targaryens and their primacy, their freedom of practice, etc. Again, because he has always felt stunted of freedom and love since childhood. Sex and emotion, the intimacy and exchange made within that dynamic, is as much a motivation or weakness for Tyrion as it is for Cersei. While Cersei uses sex and men's desire for her to gain their supposed loyalties and resources--sometimes giving up her sexual agency for her children--and (with Taena) perform "masculine" power, Tyrion uses sex to act at being vulnerable & deny his monstrousness without it turning into dangerous vulnerability.

While Tyrion is far more capable of critical thinking and willing to use it (than Cersei), I think that, much like Cersei, Tyrion depends on his class to offset the societal and family aspersion/indifference against him, wants his family's respect and affection, and with each flout of his importance based on his dwarfism from those he finds attractive (and not just because they are attractive physically but the allure of the access to power [Sansa] elsewhere or to his ego alone [Shae]). Like Cersei thinking that she has Tywin's intelligence as well as his ruthlessness, Tyrion thinks that he has more emotional control than he actually has. Control and mastery over his emotions could help him see the outcomes of some strategies or some people's behaviors to anticipate before making a move.

Both he and Cersei aren't that self-aware and use the external perceptions of them and the need to control them to make excuses for themselves often. This also leads them to not understand themselves in relation to others outside of Tywin and Jaime/the Lannisters-as-made/supported-by-Tywin.

Meanwhile, he has Bronn kill Symon Silver Tongue (a blackmailing singer) and had little reaction to news of his corpse put into a "bowl of brown", which implies forced cannibalism on unsuspecting consumers. Which is very evil, and unnecessary, tactically but speaks to his need to have control over the "smallest" of things that affect the human body itself. (Perhaps the transformation from man to food itself satisfies Tyrion's need to transform himself and change out of the undesirable body he was born with.)

He believed that he surpassed Tywin's cunning and competence, but Tyrion--before killing Tywin -- was still stuck in the Lannister knot of trying to please and gain the love/respect of their father who defined and compressed their sense of worthiness to his own expectations and directions. And he's actually very much like Tywin and Cersei in his disinterest in anything but image or power, over the smallfolk's long-term needs for those themselves. Like most aristocrats. The problem is, again, he thinks he's better than Cersei as a person, that he is inherently better because he is smarter. It partially feeds into and leads to his peculiar blindness to the most obvious things about what makes people outside of his family truly tick, making him think he can go without considering that.

Femicide and intimate partner violence: Shae. An indication of his losing himself in that Lannister-loveless-knot, and we're left off not knowing whether Tyrion could come back from that (as the text encourages us to feel). Personally, once he killed Shae, I thought him irredeemable.

Killing Twyin? Don't care about that, even with kinslaying considered more heinous than killing a woman/a sex worker/a mistress in Westeros. Tywin was one of Tyrion's demons and though patricide is particularly...hard to get through without looking at the actor without some sort of side-eye, I think when one continuously harms their child they open up a slew of consequences they've made for themselves, and they are the ones to scrape and whittle down that bond in the first place.

No, killing your dad isn't "right"...neither is it to force a 13 year old child watch as a group of men rape someone they cared for and force her away from them, make that child feel like they are a blight but then steal the glory of their adulthood accomplishments...etc.

Going back to Shae, even with her betraying him:

(I forget, so anyone could correct me on this) We don't know what pushed Shae to betray Tyrion, but their relationship has never been truly close nor brought into a certain understanding of two people who thought themselves equals, whatever that could have become in a relationship like theirs. From the get-go, Shae seemed more into Tyrion for the protection, money, and being close to the court for exploration and a bit of excitement. Yet Tyrion kinda fools himself into thinking there was a love/intimacy that bonded them while treating her as a more sexual companion who makes him feel good than a true partner. What's interesting about Tyrion is that In that sense, Shae treated him as the "the deal" between them always was -- a means to an end.

*EDIT* Shae had been bouncing from one place Tyrion hid/lead her in KL to another to keep her from Cersei's hands. At one point, she was going to land in them or be killed, yet Tyrion refused to let her go. So it's likely she went to Tywin to really get away from danger, as Cersei wouldn't seek to mess with the very man she is always been both scared of and desperate to "please". *END OF EDIT

(if one argued she was forced) Especially when she's up against someone like Tywin Lannister, who could have had her out and degraded like Tysha (which Tyrion is aware of, so ironically he's keeping her in the same space as the man who destroyed his first love as well as his own sister, and "protecting" her poorly). While past the Westerosi age of majority AND at the age of consent for U.S. society, Shae is also much younger than Tyrion, and even younger than Tywin. With either man, Shae didn't seem to stand much of a chance, and Tyrion took her betrayal as JUST a personal affront, which while I get to a certain extent, I see is also solipsistic.

his killing her was not about justice, but the precursor to the revenge that he plans against every single person who did him wrong (and with how he handled Symon, there's reason to believe that he wouldn't discriminate about who he hurts or kills to get this end...similar to Lady Stoneheart, except scarier to me since Tyrion is trying to utterly destroy even Jaime, who though acted badly by keeping the Tysha 's feelings for Tyrion secret and thus is partially responsible for Tyrion's misery, was also the only one to ever look out for him or try...that shows a particular hypocritical blind anger at the entire world that spells disaster)

*EDIT #1* Going a little back to the element of us not knowing if he will "come back" from him killing his father/Shae, the answer for me is no and unlikely. Because him killing his father slices through the Lannister "knot": the biggest motivation for why Tyrion has always done what he's done, fatherly love, familial regard and respect, power through that acknowledgment, acknowledgment from society THROUGH becoming something like this father which had brought them the prosperity and prestige the Lannisters enjoyed...seeing as the Lannisters became the way they became thru Tywin's actions and connections. Tywin himself, they all learned, only gave them some sort of attention or regard when he felt they would be useful for politics and their house's further aggrandizement. Which is itself only possible through wealth, a great (by skill or fuel or size) army, connections, self-supply through agricultural resources, etc. You know, the feudal way.

Despite his thinking, Tyrion technically doesn't emotionally need his family, while he very much desires their love, because it was never given in the first place. That lack of love, or at least respect, kept him an outsider, which does give him a separate perspective that made him capable of killing his father in the first place.

*END OF EDIT #1*

Despite him thinking he's handling Shae and her feelings well, he's not and actually is led by his need for her to love him, or to continue to act as if she does and bring him some assurance of companionship.

His last act in KL with his family: hurting Jaime by telling him that Cersei fucked many others, lying about killing Joffrey, and silently vowing to revenge himself against even Jaime along with Cersei. Kinslaying is an extreme taboo in Westeros and he'd be person non grata, vulnerable to anyone wishing him harm (another reason why he skips off to Essos). And he doesn't even have access to the Lannister reputation, protection, or wealth. He's on his own, he's burnt every bridge.

Tyrion is a case of the abused turned/turning into a monster. He is also the repackaged/"subverted" "Fool" (not Tarot) and Trickster capable of the greatest evils, selfish, capable of bringing about good (but for selfish or inadvertent ways/reasons), but far from that. He's eternally out of line, he's eternally hungry for "more", he enjoys himself and hates himself simultaneously, he's both blind and observant. Tyrion's a fucked up paradox.

As for show Tyrion, at surface level, a lot more genial and easier to root for. His wit and insecurity combined, plus the whitewashing, makes him a far more charming character than he is in the books, and again, I DO think book!him is charming in a very paradoxical bestial-blasé way.

But he still kills Shae in the show, so show!Tyrion still is not one of my favorites in terms of personhood. That will never be something he can be redeemed for in my eyes. The show allows him that grace where there is none, another point of detrimental whitewashing, especially in his assessment of Dany's supposed evil being seen as actually evil to the audience of seasons 7-8. And the show subsequently makes as if Shae deserved her death, that Tyrion had the right to kill her, that she owed herself to him and his subsequent "claim" over her, etc....because he fooled himself into thinking this was ever a real relationship/a relationship where he had all of the advantages and that his Tywin/Cersei wouldn't cross lines against him.

*EDIT #2* (8/27/23)

And to him, relationships are made up exactly of cold exchanges bc no one ever wanted him for him and they saw that his dwarfism was excuse enough to not try to love him or to drive in how unloveable he was. Because he has learned that he was a disgusting creature and love will likely always be out of his reach/denied to him, he is both pushed towards & seeks out what appear to be low-risk relationships. Aside from the fact that commonborn women are more within his reach than noble women as they are kept away from being virgins--ideally--on their wedding night and thus are very restricted i their overall interactions with any man/boy who aren't their fathers or brothers AND who like Sansa have probably dreamed of a handsome lord or a knight to be their husband, common-born women--esp. sex workers--do not require/cannot ask more of him than money or some protection. Because they do not invest in him emotionally or are unlikely to BUT also seek him out for protection and a living AND can never seemingly hurt him bc they lack the standing & genitals (aristocratic male privilege or just being of a house that could trouble the Lannnisters), he can theoretically slake his thirst for intimacy while maintaining his lover's ability to actually control him. Because he is their cash cow. However, his need for more love, real love, and a love for self eventually pushes him into looking to this person he designated as his new partner. She was his only means of intimacy, he could not feel like he'd get it anywhere else, so he convinced himself (despite his trie not to) that she eventually fell for him.

END of EDIT #2

In terms of character (adding to what's already said), he also made less sense bc of that whitewashing. Tamer and less angry than he should have been, a seemingly better person even though he was supposed to feel righteously dark retribution for Jaime, Tywin, Cersei, and all of King's Landing. Anyone he felt had wronged. Him. This emotion drives him to kill Shae, which gives that motivation seemingly more justice bc we barely get to see Shae's vulnerability & Tyriaomn's actual neglect of her as we should have seen in the books, too, so his progression after that made no sense to me.

ADDITIONALLY

A post by blankwhiteshield HERE really shows us the Lannister siblings and their relationship with love. This is what they conclude about Tyrion:

Right?! It's so ridiculous how some don't realize that Robert's Rebellion was about taking power and not "regaining the land or dignity". I don't think they realize how much like the U.S. nativists of the 19th century they sound.

Response to this POST of GoT's Bran actor saying D&D said GRRM always had Bran become the Westerosi king part of his ending.

Some say she will establish her own dynasty in Essos, the empire of Dawn maybe. Others say she will lose all her dragons and still do so. Or marry and retire somewhere, again in Essos, and marry and grow a family.

From what I gather, Sansa is a hero to Sansa stans because they believe that her soft feminity (or really gender conformity) will show itself to be as effective against the Long Night or be a huge reason why the Big Five will win against it. That she will become Queen in the North and become her own protagonist or something. They basically ignore and/or try to rewrite many of Sansa's canon characterizations or brush it off as her being only 11 when she bullied Arya. Or they deny she ever did and that she was just bratty.

Meanwhile, this SERIES OF REBLOGS OF MY POST HERE will show you otherwise. That Sansa stanning really is just about them advocating for patriarchal, licensed feminity and conformity.

Aemond is the champion of the misogynist, male privilege, ultra classist, ambition and greed above all Greens. He is the more flashy and maybe most prominent of the greens by style and distinctiveness of his violence. If Aegon is poison suffocating you, Aemond is the blade cutting you with his misogyny.

I write about how ridiculous this notion is HERE, HERE, and HERE, but there are repeats. Read at your own discretion.

As for dragon “just being animals”....then that means that the Targs and all the dragon lords didn’t “bond” with their dragons and that there is no magic connection, whilst we know that there is through Dany and her dragons. People...please reread her surviving fucking flames and how she interacts with her dragons afterwards and tell me how the hell that is 100% normal animal behavior. 

And then those arguers will have to also give up the notion that Aemond, Helaena, Daeron, and Aegon II all don’t have real magical bonds with their dragons if they are going to deny it for all and any person of Valyrian descent. Because in case they didn’t know.....they have a Targaryen/dragonlord descended father!!!!

We also saw how all people who tried to claim a dragon and weren’t descended from Valyrian persons get seriously hurt, killed, or just didn’t succeed in claiming a dragon during the Red Sowing so what is the point of their arguments?